ErikH2000
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If you like, use this topic for any discussion related to jumping snake puzzles.

-Erik

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[Last edited by ErikH2000 at 07-23-2006 04:52 AM]

Niccus
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That was fun...

The contest seems like it'd be jump minimization or puzzle creation... any other predictions?

Citrus
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Did it, but I don't quite get how the notation works. Help?

EDIT: Nevermind, I got it, now I just need to type it out.

EDIT: Here's a few challenges for people:

1. Only jump on even numbered turns.
2. Make your last jump at least 10 turns before the snake dies.
3. Jump more than 15 times.

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[Last edited by Ezlo at 07-23-2006 02:38 AM]

Chaco
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Oh, cool, it's another Deflectomundo contest, with a new interesting idea.

I suppose I might as well participate and continue my contest participation streak. I shall solve the intro puzzle tomorrow.

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ErikH2000
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People seem to be having a bit of trouble with the notation. I would like something simpler if possible. Anybody have recommendations?

-Erik

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TripleM
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Its a little bit tricky to get right, but I don't think theres anything simpler. The only suggestion I have is to add an image of the example problem, with numbers in each square showing the move numbers. That way it may be a bit easier to see which numbers meant jumps.

coppro
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ErikH2000 wrote:
People seem to be having a bit of trouble with the notation. I would like something simpler if possible. Anybody have recommendations?

-Erik

How about using a directional style? It makes it easier to read, but takes longer. For instance, in your first puzzle, it might be recorded as 2N, J1N, 1N, 2E, 3S, 1W, J1W...

When not jumping, mark down #D, where # is the number of squares, and D is a cardinal direction. When jumping, mark down J#D, where J is a J, and # is the number of squares jumped. That way, the observer can follow the snakes, whithout having to work things out, but of course can stop at any stage to determine what would happen, and whether or not it was a correct move.

On a completely unrelated note, Oliver Ruel got a DQ at the GP!

Brainy
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If I would give some hints as for the notation

1. Consider the arrow square no. 1 (to remember this, I numbered this rule as no. 1, got it? )

2. Do not count the squares you jump upon, because you really never stepped on them, that is, during the jump !!

3. Do not care about mentioning right or left..the rules should dictate the snake head movement ( Ahead then Right then Left then Backwards, if at all possible)

And as an alternative for the count that might get wrong, I think we can use the chess notation..

Brainy

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[Last edited by Brainy at 07-23-2006 04:35 AM]

Hikari
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So um, if we don't want to fuss with notation, can we submit an image with our solution?

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Niccus
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I used a wall-bump notation... Every turn (and so, possible jump) counts up.

It came about when I misread the instructions

ErikH2000
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I think I might go crazy reading a lot of different notations to check for right answers. Let's stick with the original notation as described, but you can also attach an image with your solution instead of using the notation if you prefer.

-Erik

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Tahnan
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File: contest.hold (1.1 KB)
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Just to clarify:

(1) Are we allowed to write a computer program to solve the puzzle?
(2) Are we allowed to use a computer program to assist in solving (i.e. can we turn the maze into an interactive Java applet that lets us use arrow keys to manoeuver, with an undo function, etc.)?
(3) Instead of an image, can we post a hold-and-demo with our solution, as with the attached file for the example?

NiroZ
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having just scanned the topic i was just wondering if you could 'wrap' around the puzzle (ie, jump from the left wall and end up on the right wall)

ErikH2000
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Tahnan wrote:
Just to clarify:

(1) Are we allowed to write a computer program to solve the puzzle?

Yeah, go ahead. But you're a weenie if you need it.

(2) Are we allowed to use a computer program to assist in solving (i.e. can we turn the maze into an interactive Java applet that lets us use arrow keys to manoeuver, with an undo function, etc.)?

Yeah, yeah. Remember, this is just a trial puzzle. The contest proper has different rules.

(3) Instead of an image, can we post a hold-and-demo with our solution, as with the attached file for the example?

No, because then I have to open up DROD, import your hold and demo, play through the demo... it's time-consuming.

-Erik

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Decent Apps - open source tools for writing and deploying privacy-focused LLM-based web apps.

ErikH2000
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NiroZ wrote:
having just scanned the topic i was just wondering if you could 'wrap' around the puzzle (ie, jump from the left wall and end up on the right wall)

No wrapping.

-Erik

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Decent Apps - open source tools for writing and deploying privacy-focused LLM-based web apps.

Tim
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Just finished it. Must say I've tried a lot of times before finding a solution for it...

Any real deadline set for this yet?

Jason
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So the snake can jump over itself as far as it would like? It can also jump over walls?

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[Last edited by Jason at 07-23-2006 02:22 PM]

Tahnan
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ErikH2000 wrote:

Tahnan wrote:
(3) Instead of an image, can we post a hold-and-demo with our solution, as with the attached file for the example?

No, because then I have to open up DROD, import your hold and demo, play through the demo... it's time-consuming.

-Erik

You think that's time-consuming, try writing the hold in the first place.

And, what, you don't keep DROD running in the background at all times?

ErikH2000
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Tim wrote:
Any real deadline set for this yet?

There is a possibility of the contest being referenced in an article someone is writing. I will wait a bit before announcing a deadline so people visiting from that article will have a chance to enter. The deadline for contest entry won't be later than the 2nd week of August, however, and will probably be the 1st.

-Erik

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ErikH2000
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Jason wrote:
So the snake can jump over itself as far as it would like? It can also jump over walls?

Yes, as long as there is a place for it to land in the same row or column.

-Erik

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Decent Apps - open source tools for writing and deploying privacy-focused LLM-based web apps.

ErikH2000
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Tahnan wrote:
You think that's time-consuming, try writing the hold in the first place.

Well, I'd feel sympathetic for you, except that... jeebus, why are you writing a hold for this in the first place? Go easy or you'll wear yourself out!

And, what, you don't keep DROD running in the background at all times?

Amazingly, I don't.

-Erik

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ErikH2000
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File: JumpingSnake3.jpg (42.8 KB)
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Here's another jumping snake puzzle I made that people can try if they like. I'm not sure if this one is easier or harder than the last one. I tried to make it something you could work out with more deduction as opposed to trial and error. I don't think it's very difficult. What do you think? And more importantly, is it fun?



-Erik

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Decent Apps - open source tools for writing and deploying privacy-focused LLM-based web apps.

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[Last edited by ErikH2000 at 07-23-2006 07:14 PM]

Tim
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ErikH2000 wrote:
I'm not sure if this one is easier or harder than the last one.

Well, it's a bit harder, since most of the paths are more or less defined.

I tried to make it something you could work out with more deduction as opposed to trial and error.

There is more dedeuction in there, although the problem with this jumping snake idea is that you only have a start point to work with, so you will always have a lot of trial and error. It's also very hard to check whether a solution is correct.

I don't think it's very difficult. What do you think?

The difficulty is now about 6 brains. Is it what you aim for?

And more importantly, is it fun?

Well, I think you've answered this yourself. There is a lot of trial and error here, and when you do it wrong, you have to restart all over again. Perhaps you can add a bit more deduction by adding a few required segments here and there...

ErikH2000
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Tim wrote:
It's also very hard to check whether a solution is correct.

I'm not sure what you mean. Once you fill in the entire board, then you know the solution is correct.

The difficulty is now about 6 brains. Is it what you aim for?

I'm trying just to make fun introductory puzzles. There doesn't seem much point to making very difficult puzzles when people are just getting used to the idea. In fact, it's very easy to make difficult puzzles just by increasing the number of different path possibilities, so I'm restraining myself.

Well, I think you've answered this yourself. There is a lot of trial and error here, and when you do it wrong, you have to restart all over again. Perhaps you can add a bit more deduction by adding a few required segments here and there...

I see.

Would anyone care to make some puzzles for me to try out? If I make them myself, then I can't really see what it's like to play them. It's actually very easy to make a puzzle.

1. Start with a grid that is shaped however you like.
2. Run a snake through it, choosing some arbitrary path that covers most if not all of the board.
3. For the empty squares left over, you can either add extra squares to the grid that allow passage to these empty squares, or you can fill in the empty squares with walls.

-Erik

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Sergenth
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My guess is that a jumping snake puzzle would be harder with large open areas and a few single solid squares spread out inside, giving less predictable "should I jump or turn right" choices.

With this third puzzle, you can figure out where the snake must end up on it's last turn (which is the neat, and FUN deduction element EDIT I think I'm wrong about that... EDIT2 Nope... just more than one way to get there!) Before getting there, I found areas that "had" to be entered from certain directions, so I was able to work backwards and fill in as I made mistakes. It only took me 4 tries where I actually filled in lines, but I did do a few minutes of analyzing before.

More elements would make this even more fun, just as more elements in DROD make it more fun and mentally taxing. However, I think eah map could only stand to have one additional type of puzzle element before it becomes to busy to work out on paper.

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[Last edited by Sergenth at 07-23-2006 10:08 PM]

Tim
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File: jumping4b.png (4.7 KB)
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ErikH2000 wrote:

Tim wrote:
It's also very hard to check whether a solution is correct.

I'm not sure what you mean. Once you fill in the entire board, then you know the solution is correct.

I guess my problem is that I can't always apply the rules correctly. I always need to recheck if all my jumps follow the rules a few times.

Would anyone care to make some puzzles for me to try out? If I make them myself, then I can't really see what it's like to play them.

Okay, here's one. I've made it before I read your answer, so it's a bit harder.



Note: This is a second new version, the previous ones are not solvable

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[Last edited by Tim at 07-23-2006 10:14 PM]

ErikH2000
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Tim, I see your edit "this is a new version". Is the old version solvable?

-Erik

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ErikH2000
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Also, no attachment for the new puzzle.

I'm having trouble with the old puzzle. It seems pretty hard, if not insolvable. I did manage to fill in the middle part and get the snake to the eastern chamber, but it left myself no way back to fill the 3 empty squares on the west. Hmm. I'm working on a way to fill the 3 empty square to the west first, but I just want to make sure... is this solvable?

-Erik

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Tim
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ErikH2000 wrote:
Also, no attachment for the new puzzle.

I'm having trouble with the old puzzle. It seems pretty hard, if not insolvable. I did manage to fill in the middle part and get the snake to the eastern chamber, but it left myself no way back to fill the 3 empty squares on the west. Hmm. I'm working on a way to fill the 3 empty square to the west first, but I just want to make sure... is this solvable?

-Erik

That's what I get when I made a change to the east part without checking properly. This newer version should work

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ErikH2000
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File: jumping4b-ErikAnswer2.jpg (82.5 KB)
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Aha! Actually, I enjoyed that puzzle quite a bit. If I started on the second version of the puzzle, it probably would have taken me about 10 minutes to solve. The key to making enjoyable puzzles seems to be setting up the bottlenecks that allow you to cull away incorrect paths. In this case, I knew that I needed to get on the middle path after the first area was filled in.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
Decent Apps - open source tools for writing and deploying privacy-focused LLM-based web apps.

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[Last edited by ErikH2000 at 07-23-2006 10:47 PM]