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KevG
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icon Re: Crumb is now in Beta (+1)  
I'm pretty sure "warrant of the woods" on the first help screen should be "warden of the woods".

The way the red potion is introduced in Tutorial 3 could probably be improved on. There's no mention of what, if anything, it actually does. Also, it's not needed to solve the level. That means those of us who don't bother to read the help screens are just going to be confused about why there's a potion icon on the bottom of the screen. Personally, I'd leave it out of T3 and introduce it in a level where it's mentioned in the opening hint screen and/or needed to solve the level.

Didn't notice any bugs while playing. Everything else I noticed has already been mentioned. Oh yeah, Maze 1 is unsolvable. :)
07-13-2006 at 02:21 PM
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ErikH2000
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icon Beds, Babies, and Sleepgates. (+2)  
I did a little brainstorming and I think this is the best idea I came up with for Crumb. I threw out ideas that seemed like they'd take major coding changes (by my guesses anyway) or would take the game too far away from its current design.



Sleepgates are obstacles that open after all babies on a level are put to sleep.

You put babies to sleep by leading them to beds. When all the babies in the level are positioned over beds they simultaneously lay down and go to sleep, becoming permanently immovable. Any sleepgates on the level open at this point.

A baby stands in one location in a "waiting" state until you walk into a square adjacent to him. Then he is in the "following" state. He follows behind you, always stepping into the square you last occupied, if possible. If you move towards the following baby, the baby will stop following you and stay in his square long enough for you to move away from him without triggering following. Then he reverts to the "waiting" state.

Multiple babies can follow you in one big long chain. If the last baby following you is adjacent to a baby in "waiting" state, that waiting baby changes to "following" state and gets behind the last baby. Each baby will just follow one character front of him, be it the player character or another baby.

You can put an entire chain of following babies into waiting state the same way you would with just one baby--move towards the baby immediately following you and the whole chain will stop following. Later, if you come back to any square adjacent to one of the waiting babies, you'll start the whole chain following you again.

Getting the babies onto beds makes for many different puzzles. In the figure above, I have a 24-square bed area to be filled with 24 babies. Say you have 24 babies in one chain behind you. The path you take over the bed area must touch every square. If you choose the wrong path, you'll be left with an extra baby or two that isn't on a bed square.

Getting baby-chains of the right length is another puzzle problem. Say there are 10 babies and 2 separated bed areas--one with 4 bed squares and the other with 6. If you make one big long chain of 10 babies, you can fill up only one of the areas. Instead you have to make one chain of 4 babies, and lead them to the 4-square bed area, taking care not to add any extra babies to the chain. After leaving the 4 babies in their bed squares, you'd make a new chain of 6 babies and lead them to the other bed area.

Babies can serve as an obstacle because they disallow movement of the player's character to the square previously occupied. More puzzle possibilities come from this characteristic. With long chains of babies, you'll get into many different puzzle problems of where to put them. Like if you've got an area full of rocks to move, it can be harder to do with a chain of following babies getting in the way.

So that's the first idea I'll throw at Keith. Keith, I'm not expecting you to jump up and code this or even to like it. It's just an idea that you can use if you want.

-Erik

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[Last edited by ErikH2000 at 07-13-2006 08:23 PM]
07-13-2006 at 08:22 PM
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ErikH2000
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icon Trampolines. (+2)  
Here's an idea that's maybe simpler than the babies.

A trampoline occupies one square. When the player walks onto it, she begins to jump on the trampoline in a series of 3 bounces that increase in height.

At the apex of the first bounce, the player may move 2 squares in one of the 4 directions travelling over any enemies or obstacles that are between trampoline and destination square.

At the apex of the second bounce, the player may move 3 squares in one of the 4 directions..

At the apex of the third bounce, the player may move 4 squares in one of the 4 directions.

After the third bounce, the player starts the sequence of bouncing again with the first bounce.

The player pushes in one of the 4 directions to jump off the trampoline. Each time the player reaches the apex of a bounce, the sqaures she is able to reach are highlighted in the 4 orthogonal directions. If one of the destination squares is filled with an obstacle, that square won't be highlighted, and an attempt to jump there will be ignored.

-Erik

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07-13-2006 at 08:32 PM
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ErikH2000
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icon Freezing and Thawing Water. (0)  
There is some kind of switch you step on that will freeze all the water into ice. Ice acts like the ice in Chip's Challenge where stepping onto it makes you continue movement until you leave the ice, bounce off an obstacle, or get killed on something.

There is another switch that thaws the ice to water. Puzzles can be made that depend on changing the water back and forth between the two states. Either state can be helpful or not depending on the situation of the level.

-Erik

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07-13-2006 at 08:42 PM
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lakibuk
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icon Re: Crumb is now in Beta (+2)  
First - are you sure this is a Beta? As i understand a Beta version is a product that is near completion and only needs testing and minor changes. Your demo looks more like an Alpha,there's still a lot to be done.

I'll start with the conclusion: I think it could be a nice game,testing it was quite enjoyable. Graphics are ok, although screenshots on your website looked more promising to me.

Here some things in random order:
- Scrolling is a little bit lame and jittery (did you write the game in Visual Basic? :lol
- Entering the house without having all crumbs: you start two tiles below the house moving up. Not a good way to get back to the game.
- Bees: they look quite lifeless in their non-animated existence.
- Collision with enemies: too unforgiving
- Maze1: wtf?
- Locking a bee with a stone sucks (the bee moves in a crazy way). You can move the stone over the bee, that's not good either.
- Crumbs: Are these breadcrumbs? Why do they have water/fire symbols on them? Why are some swimming in the water? Don't they get soaked there?
- Trees (the 1-tile sized ones) are a little irritating. Sometimes they look like your path is blocked but it's just the treetop you can walk under.
- Map: Pressing M to get to the map screen is fine. Not being able to return to game with M is not.
- Corral: I solved it! But i don't think it's possible to reach the red potion,is it? If not, are you trying to fool the player (=bad attitude).
- BUG: Some serious block pushing bugs occurred on the levels Heaven and Frog. Blocks were pushed from a distance, got dragged around. I even landed on one. Messed up the level structure,too. That's why i quit playing on Frog. See attachment.
- savepoints would be cool.
- title: is Crumb a good name? Only association i had (non-english speaker) was the cartoonist Robert Crumb. Maybe something like Breadcrumb Trail would be nice, association to fairytales. I like fairytales.
- Frog: What are the "houses that are righteous illusions" (german translation haha) good for? Fool the player?

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[Last edited by lakibuk at 07-13-2006 09:22 PM]
07-13-2006 at 09:10 PM
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lakibuk
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icon Re: Crumb is now in Beta (0)  
btw: Hey ErikH, that baby game sounds quite interesting.
Would be a different game though.
Now i think: These "babies" are like a mix of of Nibbler and the DROD cockroaches - haha!

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[Last edited by lakibuk at 07-13-2006 09:14 PM]
07-13-2006 at 09:11 PM
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trick
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icon Re: Crumb is now in Beta (+2)  
(I didn't read all the other posts, so apologies if I'm repeating something here.)

I found myself in Windows a little while ago, so I thought, "hey, why not test that Crumb game a wee bit". So I did.

First impression: "Wah!"

When I started the game, the first thing I saw was the company logo of Piddlepup Games, what I assume to be the Piddle Pup. Now, usually I actually don't mind overly cute things, but yegads, I think that thing is past the line for me. In fact, I think it goes beyond cuteness into the not-so-cute-at-all. I guess you won't be changing it, though, so I'll go on to the actual game.

First bug I encountered: When typing in a name ("MjauMjau", if that matters), I noticed that the cursor didn't appear at the end of the typed-in characters, but slightly before the middle of the last character. This was always true, both when typing and deleting -- the cursor just seemed to be offset wrong. Didn't get any screenshots of this, unfortunately (and I'm back in Linux now).

The game: At first I thought the game was very slow-going, counting the seconds as my character inched its way across the first square. Later on I discovered that the game's not actually as slow as that all the time, but there seems to be some sort of bug that makes the game speed increase to okay speed (normal speed ?), decrease to painfully slow, then back up again and so on. I tried to find out if there was some particular thing causing this, but didn't find out much. Levels usually (but not always) seem to start out slow-going, and the slowness seemed to be more frequent when playing sounds (but not directly linked; it did play sounds without slowing down a couple times too). I guess this could be related to my CPU, which is an AMD Athlon64x2 4200+. I know a couple games have timing issues on dual core (widespread wrong usage of QueryPerformanceCounter or something .. don't remember the details, unfortunately).

I prefer keyboard control in these kinds of games, but I did try the mouse control a little bit as well. At first I just held the mouse at the next square I was moving to, but this felt pretty awkward, since the character moved into the square the cursor was in, thus forcing me to move the mouse to take another step. You can hold the mouse farther away to walk more squares at once, of course, but I didn't really like that much either. I felt I did a lot of moving the mouse around for just a little bit of moving the character around -- it wasn't that much, of course, but it felt that way. The only time I was perfectly comfortable using the mouse controls was when the screen scrolled, so the mouse stayed at the same relative position when the character moved. Maybe you could try moving the mouse programmatically when not scrolling the screen, to keep the same relative position when moving at all times ? (I'm not sure what bad effects programmatic mouse movement could cause, though.)

Also, playing a game with the keyboard, I like being able to use the keyboard for all tasks, but this is not possible in Crumb. Also, it was a bit annoying that the mouse cursor didn't hide after a little while when using the keyboard exclusively. I had to move it out of the way after starting every level. Anyway, I think it'd be a good idea to add the possibility of using the keyboard cursor keys in the menus and on the level select screen, as well as exiting the map screen (ESC kinda worked, but that popped up the in-game menu as well. I think just pressing M to toggle the map would be natural).

Oh, and speaking about the map, it doesn't show the player character, or any monsters. It'd be nice if it did. It wouldn't have to animate or anything, just show where you are and where the monsters are so you could get a better overview.

As others have mentioned, I'd expect the next level to be automatically selected when completing a level. Also, when clicking a thumbnail for a level in the bottom of the level select screen, that level starts immediately, which caught me a bit off-guard. I'd expect clicking a level thumbnail to select that level, not enter it.

Collision detection could use some work. It seems like monsters/characters moving from one square to the next are considered to be occupying both squares as far as collision checking goes, which results in "unfair" collisions like in the image below.

Also, there's something strange going on with rocks/bees collision. On one of the levels (I forget what it was called, but I'm sure you recognize it ..), I was pushing the rock you see there in the image (below) against the bee just as the bee was moving into the same square the rock was moving into, which resulted in the rock being put on top of the bee, and me dying. After I restarted the level, I was able to walk on top of that rock. A little bit later on I discovered that pushing a rock against a trapped bee also results in the rock being put on top of the bee, and then being caught.

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Graphics

The fire looks like a bloody, pulsating lump of spiky flesh, which was rather creepy. Didn't fit in well, I thought. This might be because a friend forced me to watch the Berserk anime with him some years ago, but still.

Also, the shadows are a tad inconsistent: Trees and bushes cast softer shadows, most other objects cast hard, black shadows, bees have dithered black shadows, and the vertical fence shadow is completely wrong -- all the other objects (well, maybe except the rocks) cast their shadow as if the sun/light is coming from directly above (zenith), but the vertical fence shadow seems like it's being cast by a light over to the west somewhere.

Also, some antialiasing wouldn't hurt.

Sound

The sound that comes when you push the rock loops very slowly. You start pushing a rock, hear the pushing sound, keep pushing it a couple more squares, and then suddenly you hear that pushing sound again. The sound is fine for starting the push, but I don't think it fits for looping. A grinding sound as you continue pushing the rock might be better (as long as it's not too intrusive).

The water sound as you plop a rock into water is too delayed.

If you attempt to push a rock that can't be moved, absolutely nothing happens. No feedback is generally a bad thing, so there should at least be some sound effect for when this happens, I think.

I didn't care much for the music, but hey, I'm probably not your target audience :)

Other

After playing the game, I had a look at the help, and discovered that our little heroine actually not only is missing a name, but the poor girl is described as a he/she! I mean, come on. She's clearly female, and the least you could do is give her a name.

As for the game overall, I think it's a nice little game, but there's not many elements, it's easy (well, apart from that impossible level ;)), and there's not really that much to do, so the game starts feeling repetitive after a few levels. I understand you don't want to overcomplicate stuff, with this being a casual game and all, but I think that some more (and unique!) elements (and baddies) would definitely be a plus.

- Gerry


[Last edited by trick at 07-13-2006 09:26 PM]
07-13-2006 at 09:24 PM
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ErikH2000
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icon Re: Crumb is now in Beta (0)  
lakibuk wrote:
btw: Hey ErikH, that baby game sounds quite interesting.
Would be a different game though.
I think the idea would work fine with Keith's existing game elements and complement them. Some levels could use the babies to greater extent, and other levels could leave them out. You'd have a lot of variety in the gameplay, and that's what I think Crumb needs most of all to support the goal of gaining long-term players and community-building.

If Bound Around, you've got puzzles that are about hitting blocks and avoiding enemies. Suppose you hadn't thought of the idea of puzzles where you must blow up creatures with bombs when they reach an obstacle square. Suppose I came along and suggested it to you. "That would be a different game though!" you'd say. It's not a completely different game, it's just a different type of level task made possible by new game elements (bombs, ladybugs, cactus). Right now, Keith's game is almost completely about pushing rocks. I'm just saying it could use another type of level task to add variety and set it apart from existing games.

-Erik

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07-13-2006 at 09:46 PM
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Cartman
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icon Re: Crumb is now in Beta (0)  
I think you've got a great idea here Erik.

Currently I have more elements coming, but some of them are only for the paying customers. I have to put some more of them in the lower levels to entice purchase however.

I like the baby idea. But I'm thinking the easiest way to incorporate the idea is probably with bonus rounds. I'll have to think about this some more. I'm also (as you mentioned) in a pinch to finish the game ASAP, so this may be a 1.1 version. :)

Thanks for the great help everyone.

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07-13-2006 at 10:08 PM
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Znirk
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icon Re: Crumb is now in Beta (+1)  
One suggestion: Get rid (or let me get rid) of the mouse pointer when I play with the keyboard. It's particularly distracting in this game because movement mostly happens by shifting the map while leaving the character in place. Since the mouse pointer also stays in one place while the map moves underneath, it looks as if there were a second moving element.

Ideally the game would hide the mouse pointer if the player is using the keyboard and the mouse hasn't moved recently, but I'd be equally happy if I could just shift the pointer off the game window. This is currently sort-of possible, but only through the bottom or right edge (presumably leaving one pixel of the pointer on screen, but who's counting?) and if the mouse moves slowly enough.
07-14-2006 at 09:10 AM
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Chaco
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icon Re: Crumb is now in Beta (0)  
Would the babies be able to be stung by bees? I could see it now... weaving your little choo-choo train through the field trying not to let anything die...

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07-14-2006 at 03:23 PM
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Cartman
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icon Re: Crumb is now in Beta (0)  
I wanted to thank everyone for their kind words about Crumb and of course the valuable feedback I received. I've gotten over 100 bugs and enhancements from the three forums I've posted to. This may seem like alot, but I'm going through them very quickly.

If anyone has any additional comments, please email them to me at keith@piddlepup.com or post them on my forums at www.piddlepup.com/forum/

Thanks again for everyones time.

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07-17-2006 at 05:20 PM
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