Ezlo
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1227
Registered: 01-08-2006
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You are allowed to do whatever you want! You can even have monsters die! But be warned that people will give low votes for things that they feel break the rules.

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coppro
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1309
Registered: 11-24-2005
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My solution: Force arrows.

michthro
Level: Smitemaestro
Rank Points: 679
Registered: 05-01-2005
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Which is annoying for players, which is what I've been saying since a long way back. But yeah, looks like the safest thing to do if you don't want to be rated down by the more literal-minded.

silver
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 915
Registered: 01-18-2005
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size-one entrances with a trapdoor. you can reposition your sword if you restore to room start, but can't go back out once you start to really do the room.


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michthro
Level: Smitemaestro
Rank Points: 679
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Unless you can wait in the entrance for a monster to come to you, kill it, and leave.

Doom
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3303
Registered: 07-05-2004
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Man, if that's a problem, do something else!

- Put a force arrow one tile after the entrance.
- Use trapdoors, but make sure that no monsters will go to the entrance right in the beginning.
- Orbs are usable too in some situations: Let one door close at the beginning, while another one opens further ahead.
- Make a "wubba-lock" passage. When you go through, a wubba comes from an alcove, gets stuck in the passage and prevents you from returning the same way.

The ways are many. I really don't see what's the problem.

michthro
Level: Smitemaestro
Rank Points: 679
Registered: 05-01-2005
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The problem is having to waste time doing something about each and every entrance/exit, including ones that have nothing to do with the idea of the room, all because of some annoying technicality. Of course there's a lot you can do! But it's downright idiotic to require a wubba lock/complete room redesign just to ensure that you can't exit at a specific place after killing something, even if it's equivalent to restoring.
It's because of the Goddamn argumentativeness that is the hallmark of this forum that what should have been a very simple matter of Ezlo properly wording the rules in order to avoid this kind of technicality, that this turned into such an argument in the first place. I never intended to get so involved. After all, it's not as if I have the remotest chance of getting anywhere near a place. I thought I'd just point something out, and it would be simple, but of course that was not to be, as I should have known.

Doom
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3303
Registered: 07-05-2004
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michthro wrote:
But it's downright idiotic to require a wubba lock/complete room redesign just to ensure that you can't exit at a specific place after killing something, even if it's equivalent to restoring.

First of all, the wubba lock was kind of an (intentional) exaggeration. There would be better ways to approach it in most situations. You definitely won't need to make a complete room redesign when changing a few tiles should be enough. And shouldn't take much time.

[removed some text]Edit: Forgot your main idea in that part, I'm just saying that I won't be rating holds that allow exiting through a previous entrance more harshly than others. Other people may interpret rule #6 however they want, though.

By the way, if the first post won't be updated, I can't blame anyone for building a hold with the very original rules. You really shouldn't have to read through 4 pages to know about some late additions.

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[Last edited by Doom at 05-08-2006 08:08 PM]

Ezlo
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1227
Registered: 01-08-2006
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Rules updated


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Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3648
Registered: 10-06-2005
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I just realised something: Forget work, DROD and getting 1/8 closer to a Prize Pile Prize is much more important! I promise I'll submit a hold before the deadline, for the participation credit at least.

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NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1302
Registered: 02-12-2006
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oh, great, now everyone will have their own marking agenda, which could well make the results of this contest random .

Anyway, just so people know how to win my vote:

I also must insist that to end the hold, you must have not killed any monsters along the way. If i can kill a monster and get away with it, you hold will score 1. (see ezlo's rules for definiton of monster)

Must have aleast 9 puzzle holds that if you kill a monster, you cannot end the hold.

I will give marks to holds that are fun and intruguing.

Ezlo
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1227
Registered: 01-08-2006
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That's what I hope most people will vote like. But I'm leaving it up to them.

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Stephen4Louise
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 548
Registered: 04-06-2005
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Can I enter with a previously published hold?

Only kidding, I think I'll give this a miss after the "fun" I had doing the scripting for Beethro's Day Out.

If anyone wants any advice on how I made any of the rooms in my hold (and it doesn't compromise the rules) PM me.

Steve.

Tuttle
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1548
Registered: 02-22-2003
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I just played through that, and I realised how appropriate it would be for the contest.

I'm attempting to go the strictly non-scripting route though (mainly because I've never looked at DROD scripting yet). It's certainly challenging trying to find 9 different ways to booby-trap rooms with bare-bones JtRH materials.

michthro
Level: Smitemaestro
Rank Points: 679
Registered: 05-01-2005
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Tuttle wrote:
I just played through that, and I realised how appropriate it would be for the contest.

Yeah, in fact, I'm pretty sure "Beethro's Day Off" is what inspired this contest.

Speaking of advice for those who plan on using scripting, I thought I'd point out a mistake I noticed in BDO that would be easy to make (at least it's no worse than the kind of mistakes I routinely make). This may be obvious (and some people will possibly even feel offended, which they shouldn't), but maybe, just maybe, someone actually does benefit from this. Nothing to lose, anyway, so here goes:

A natural approach is to have yellow doors that close, blocking all exits, as soon as something dies, as in BDO. Watch out for the possibility of Beethro killing something while standing on such a door, then exiting.

At least three of the rooms in BDO have this flaw. Of course, BDO wasn't subject to the strict rules of this contest, so Stephen4Louise didn't worry too much, and no-one rated it down on the grounds that the idea is all about not killing things, yet technically you can kill something and get away with it. I personally won't be harsh on anyone who misses something like that. If you're still required to do some interesting non-killing before pulling a move like that, I'll be lenient. However, in view of the preceding discussion, it's clearly a good idea to be very careful of unintended solutions.

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3648
Registered: 10-06-2005
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Actually, I'll be nice and say how I'm doing it. I have a room in which I enforce no killing of monsters, but the scripted character rooms simply quit doing things if you kill a monster, and they control an orb which *opens* a door...

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Stephen4Louise
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 548
Registered: 04-06-2005
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michthro wrote:
A natural approach is to have yellow doors that close, blocking all exits, as soon as something dies, as in BDO. Watch out for the possibility of Beethro killing something while standing on such a door, then exiting.

This was a problem I knew about but let pass. I did have a solution to it, but it would have have involved extra NPCs and wouldn't have fit in with the story so well.
I like Chaco's solution to the problem! Very simple but it sounds perfect.

The other problem I had was with snakes. I settled for a room where a few snakes would die, rather than a room that was too easy, or one that was ridiculously hard.

skell
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3764
Registered: 12-28-2004
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Ahhh. At least something which may let me get the one of the first three places. I'm so touched...

I will definitively enter it. I have even too much ideas. Just few questions:
1. Is there really any way to make a level impossible after killing a monster without using scripting?
2. Will there be anything wrong if my hold will be long and with the story?
4. Will there be something wrong if I will make some rooms needed to go through them twice or more?
5. Will there be anything wrong, if there will be any "Passage" rooms without monsters to move the story a bit in the beginning - a little prologue?

That's all I think...

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Ezlo
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1227
Registered: 01-08-2006
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1. That's for you to figure out.
2. Fine by me.
3. Not at all, but it will still count as one room.
4. If you have to kill the monsters, I would say no. But remember, you can break the rules if you are willing to risk it.

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Call me Citrus.

ChrisB
Level: Delver

Rank Points: 58
Registered: 05-23-2005
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Sorry Ezlo

I have tried to build a hold and failed miserably - don't understand all this scripting lark - see the end point but don't know how to achieve it. Perhaps I need to attend the Budkin Academy for novices!!

Can't enter this month but I'm sure I will enjoy the entries.

Chris

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If the pen is mightier than the sword, why does Beethro not use a pen??
The pen may be mightier than the sword, but it's no match for an AK47!!

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[Last edited by ChrisB at 05-13-2006 03:41 PM]

NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1302
Registered: 02-12-2006
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ChrisB wrote:
Sorry Ezlo

I have tried to build a hold and failed miserably - don't understand all this scripting lark - see the end point but don't know how to achieve it. Perhaps I need to attend the Budkin Academy for novices!!

Can't enter this month but I'm sure I will enjoy the entries.

Chris

anything in particular? I'mm happly to help if you want.

Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1645
Registered: 12-12-2004
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1. Is there really any way to make a level impossible after killing a monster without using scripting?

I'm gonna give you guys a hint or two.

silver
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 915
Registered: 01-18-2005
IP: Logged

skell wrote:
1. Is there really any way to make a level impossible after killing a monster without using scripting?

I already listed the simplest mechanism, though it puts beethro in no danger: put the monster behind a force arrow with a wall behind the monster. in order for beethro to kill it, he must step on the arrow and be stuck permanently. (in absence of mimic potions)

Another way might be to put the monster in a bomb maze such that beethro can't get his sword to point at the monster. To kill it, he'd splode himself. (Variation, don't allow Beethro access to the maze, but put Halph in it. Fuses lead to bomb maze. Step on fuse = kill monster = kill Halph = level terminates.

If the monster is a rock golem and is blocking the passage to the orb that lets you out of the room, then killing it makes the level impossible (assumes you forced Beethro to hit an orb on the way in that blocked the entrance as well as the exit)

Put a bomb-behind-green-door-with-size-one-fuse on the exit (assumes you force arrowed or trap-doored the entrance). If the green door drops, the exit is unreachable without exploding.

...there are other ways



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skell
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3764
Registered: 12-28-2004
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Oh yeah . I've been thinking about through the whole school, but I had no idea. And thanks . But now I will just feel guilty If I will use them ...

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silver
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 915
Registered: 01-18-2005
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that guilt is part of my insidious plan to induce people to be original


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[Last edited by silver at 05-12-2006 10:44 PM]

skell
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3764
Registered: 12-28-2004
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Hehe, I love to be original. And the only one I've figured for myself is to:

Orb-Enemy-Bomb somewhere in closed area. When the bomb Kabooms it will kill the monster, and also togle the orb which is made to close the exit door.

I'm also right now wondering on some Rattle+brain combo, but I'm not sure if this is possible...

Well good luck to all Architects (Returns to architecting)

ps. if somebody will be interested in helping me with the Language side, I would be really grateful .

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[Last edited by skell at 01-29-2012 08:43 PM : Going to the keep]

Beef Row
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 471
Registered: 12-28-2005
IP: Logged

Chaco wrote:
Actually, I'll be nice and say how I'm doing it. I have a room in which I enforce no killing of monsters, but the scripted character rooms simply quit doing things if you kill a monster, and they control an orb which *opens* a door...

Ah, but couldn't you get them to open the door, THEN kill something while standing on it? Unless of course you segregated the door from the monsters entirely, and if the door is segregated from the monsters, the original solution works anyway!

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Jason
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1076
Registered: 05-05-2006
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Ezlo! I have a question. Should I submit my hold to the submition board now or should I wait till the 20th?

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skell
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3764
Registered: 12-28-2004
IP: Logged

YUp. Yup. YUUUUPIIII!!! I've managed to create a level where killing a monster ends with die! And the whole idea is mine XD. But I'm not here to say HOORAYYY!
I think the best way to get segrecated from monsters is to use the one square wide corridor and a trap door.

Ps. This contest is a great idea. And I love the felling when you are sure that your level is unconquerable if you kill monster, and you find a solution, and you have to remove this "hole"

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[Last edited by skell at 05-13-2006 10:26 AM]

Ravon
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 220
Registered: 02-19-2004
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I so wanted to enter this contest, but sadly, I think I'm going to be short of time. After it's over though, I might put up the few rooms I did manage to make...