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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Architecture : Fendik's Fortress (An Idea Generator Hold (and my first!))
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mauvebutterfly
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File: Fendiks Fortress WIP.hold (55.1 KB)
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icon Fendik's Fortress (+2)  
Fendik's Fortress is my first attempt at making a hold, and it has been a work-in-progress for many months already.

The hold is currently four and a half levels completed. Each level took inputs from the official idea generator, and tried to incorporate them into the puzzles. Specifically, each level contains:

3 elements
1 concept
1 interaction

Not every room uses everything, but all the rooms on a level use several of the suggestions given, and at least one room per level uses all of them.

Every room contained within this version of the hold should be possible to access and complete, and all challenges should be implemented, so barring finding broken puzzles or unintended solutions, or if I decide to completely cut a room from the hold, what you see here should be what the final hold ends up looking like for the first 4 floors.

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[Last edited by mauvebutterfly at 04-20-2017 04:48 PM]
12-29-2016 at 03:37 AM
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blorx1
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File: Fendiks Fortress WIP - blorxL1.demo (20.4 KB)
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icon Re: Fendik's Fortress (+1)  
I got through the first level pretty quickly, but I broke some stuff, so I'm posting a demo set now. Mostly pretty fun.

1S1E felt a little more annoying/fiddly than the other parts of the level, since it had a rather complicated mess of arrows and plates, but it worked out pretty much fine for me, I guess.

1N is kind of a mess, see the demos, but I think something needs to be adjusted. Probably the orbs that close things should also close the secret arrowed exits.

Otherwise, no complaints, a fun little romp.



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12-31-2016 at 06:38 PM
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mauvebutterfly
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icon Re: Fendik's Fortress (0)  
Thanks for the feedback.

I had to move on New Year's Day, so I won't be able to check for a few days, but I definitely will once my computer/internet is set up again.

Regarding 1S1E I was trying to do a combinatorics (?) puzzle using arrow rotators instead of just orbs. Maybe remaking the puzzle without pressure plates for the rattlesnakes will make it clearer. I'll look into that.

It's probably still going to be a mess though since I am trying to use both arrow rotators and disabled force arrows. Pressure plates on top of that might have been a bit much.

I'll look at 1N once I download your demos, but I'm not surprised that that is the room you managed to break. I thought I did have arrows close from those orbs, but maybe I messed it up while testing something.

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01-02-2017 at 12:10 AM
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blorx1
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File: FFW Second Level 1S1E Victory.demo (14.7 KB)
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icon Re: Fendik's Fortress (+1)  
Level two done. I'll post the rest of my demos after I finish the entirety of the hold. This level felt like it didn't have as many easy rooms as the first level, but was pretty fair.

Minor gripe: 1S1E: the pressure plate mechanism to save a guard could probably be done in a cleaner way, because as it is, I had to mess with it a little bit just to get the guard to the plate, but I feel like that wasn't the main point of the room.

Also for 1S1E, are you sure the scripting is entirely correct, because I have a demo that I think should get the challenge, but doesn't. I think you might need to reset your myscript variables to -9999 after using them.

For Level 3:

2S2E seems to have a backtracking issue. I don't think I can get back through the room if I leave to the south or east.

1S2E also seems like a huge difficulty spike compared to the rest of the rooms I've played, since the construct arrangement one has to use to make the room work seems very specific, as far as I can tell.

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[Last edited by blorx1 at 01-02-2017 04:47 AM]
01-02-2017 at 01:14 AM
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Chaco
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File: Fendiks Fortress Chaco level1.demo (11.3 KB)
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icon Re: Fendik's Fortress (+1)  
Here's my demos for the first level (including the secret rooms). Some different comments:

It almost seemed easier to do the challenge for 1S than not to do it, since killing the rattlesnake entirely on the trapdoors means retaining access to the rattlesnake's tail, whereas putting it back in the box draws the tail forward a lot more due to the large space in the box.

For 1N1E, you'll probably want to put a green door on the north exit or otherwise force the player to hit the conquer token before they go north; otherwise people will skip the conquer token, then re-enter the room from the northwest and hit the conquer token for a trivial, irreducible highscore. Trapdoor rooms usually have "optimal" solutions but at least this would cause highscore demos to record the normal solution for the room.

2N looked a bit confusing at first but some backwards reasoning got there in the end.

The pair of rooms 2N1E and 1N2E were pretty neat - 2N1E was fairly straightforward combat but seeing the trick to actually make 1N2E was a good "aha" moment.

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Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):
Click here to view the secret text

01-06-2017 at 05:14 PM
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blorx1
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icon Re: Fendik's Fortress (0)  
Oh, by the way, I forgot, I think I'm actually stuck in level 3 because of the backtracking issue I mentioned. Could you post a fix for that, because otherwise I'm not sure the hold is completable.

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01-06-2017 at 05:51 PM
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Chaco
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File: Fendiks Fortress Chaco levels1-2.demo (15.6 KB)
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icon Re: Fendik's Fortress (+1)  
Here's my demos for levels 1 and 2 (including secret rooms for both levels, and access to Level 2 1S's west entrance). Comments for level 2:

In general, this level is a bit harder to complete than level 1 is, at least as far as the required rooms for each are compared. (The advanced snake manipulation was saved for the secret rooms in level 1.) Meanwhile, required rooms like Level 2 2W and 2E require some pretty good guard manipulation skills, particularly mastery of the turning dance even at long-range. That said, I agree that it's still pretty reasonable and tractable so it's in a pretty good state as it is.

Something seems to be broken with the challenge scripting in Level 2 1S since my first demo in my pack steps on the plate before turn 20 but I don't get the challenge. There also seems to be a debugging speech text left in the script.

1W is a bit sneaky with how you need to use the fegundo with the fastest movement order to blow up the first waterskipper. Not sure how to adjust that without also messing with the fegundo formation.

1S1E doesn't have a seeding beacon to re-try its challenge. (Actually, taking another look, 1S is the only room in the hold so far that *has* had this convenience feature.) You probably want to be consistent in all rooms - either provide a seeding beacon for all of the challenges, or none of them.

1N is pretty easy for being the required pair of the required + secret room constant template, since all the leftover roaches easily kill themselves. Maybe one of them could be replaced with a gel baby that you have to get the guard to kill?

2S was a neat room concept - I had trouble figuring out what was going on at first, but once I realized I could use the plates to turn twice, not just once, it was just a matter of lining the fegundo up properly.

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Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):
Click here to view the secret text

01-06-2017 at 10:38 PM
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mauvebutterfly
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icon Re: Fendik's Fortress (0)  
I have updated the file in the original post.

I also downloaded all the files and will check over them when I get back home (I am uploading from a coffee shop; no home internet at the moment.)

I did make a few changes based on the comments though:

1st level:

Click here to view the secret text


2nd level:

Click here to view the secret text


3rd level:

Click here to view the secret text


4th level:

no changes

5th level:

Click here to view the secret text


Additional changes:

I added beacons to all rooms with challenges. Originally beacons were only in rooms that had to be cleared under certain conditions in order to access a secret room, but for added convenience I decided to add them in all challenge rooms as well.

Additional thoughts:

I have considered adding another convenience feature: using special command to skip rooms leading to secrets if you have previously accessed the secret. Obviously I need to make sure that combined with beacons this won't lead to broken high scores. Would this be a welcome feature? Accessing the secret rooms on the 4th level, in particular, seems like a lot of work to do multiple times, and I actually deliberately tried to make an "interesting rather than difficult" secret room after one of them so that the player is likely to be able to clear it immediately without too much difficulty, since I didn't want them leaving it unfinished and then having to pass through the preceding room again.

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01-07-2017 at 11:01 AM
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blorx1
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icon Re: Fendik's Fortress (0)  
I'm very happy with the changes to the third level. The new rooms are generally more interesting.

As for level 2 1W: I think the room might be fine because you can also take advantage of the recessed edges to move fegundos in sideways without having to do any trickery with the northnern or southern fegundos for the first explosion.

I also just noticed that L3 3S4E has no checkpoints.


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01-07-2017 at 04:36 PM
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blorx1
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icon Re: Fendik's Fortress (0)  
I haven't completely analyzed the room to death, but I feel like Level 3 2S1E is another room (Like the old 1S2E) that suffers from having very specific timing dependant on when you start the room and I haven't really found a good way to approach the room other than trial and erroring out times to start things.

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01-09-2017 at 03:42 AM
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mauvebutterfly
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icon Re: Fendik's Fortress (0)  
quote:
blorx1 wrote:
I haven't completely analyzed the room to death, but I feel like Level 3 2S1E is another room (Like the old 1S2E) that suffers from having very specific timing dependant on when you start the room and I haven't really found a good way to approach the room other than trial and erroring out times to start things.


That was actually intended to be an execution room, and I agree that not knowing when to release the construct adds unfair difficulty (or at least unfun) so I have added a hint scroll that tells you when the intended start time is.

Starting time:
Click here to view the secret text


I did a bunch of testing
Click here to view the secret text


Also, I suspect that 5th level 1S1W will appear to have the same issue, and if a player gets stuck there doing trial and error without seeing the lynchpin this could also be a frustrating room. I will probably make this room a secret, but I think it is much fairer, though also more difficult.

I'll try to update the hold with a bunch of changes tomorrow. I've fixed a lot of the USs already.

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01-09-2017 at 12:22 PM
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mauvebutterfly
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icon Re: Fendik's Fortress (0)  
Do people here generally prefer a lot of frequent small updates, or a few larger ones with long time intervals in-between?

Changes in this update:

First Level:

Click here to view the secret text


Second Level:

Click here to view the secret text


Third Level:

Click here to view the secret text


Fifth Level:

Click here to view the secret text


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106th Skywatcher
01-10-2017 at 12:48 PM
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blorx1
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File: Fendiks Fortress WIP - blorxL1.demo (41 KB)
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icon Re: Fendik's Fortress (0)  
I'm personally not pciky about hold update schedules. If you have stuff to add, feel free to post it as soon as you're done, but if you want to space out updates, it's definitely fine too.

Anyway, I've finished the hold, here's a pack of demos and some comments. It looks like if I had much to say about level 3 I forgot it or already said it.

Click here to view the secret text


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01-15-2017 at 03:00 AM
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mauvebutterfly
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icon Re: Fendik's Fortress (0)  
An update, finally. No new rooms this time, but I did fix a bunch of the old stuff.

Click here to view the secret text


I could make excuses and say that I was busy with other stuff, but the reality is that I really didn't want to look at level 4 again (probably a bad sign for its inclusion in the hold, honestly.) Fortunately, fixing the rooms was a lot easier than I was expecting, although since multiple mimics and a stalwart is involved, it's likely I've missed breaks somewhere.

Now that I've made progress on fixing up level 4, I think I'll get back into this again and hopefully make some more progress. I still haven't fixed up a few things on level 5, but I don't dread working on it the same way as level 4, so I anticipate being more productive here.

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04-20-2017 at 04:46 PM
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Insoluble
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File: Fendiks Fortress WIP.demo (20.5 KB)
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icon Re: Fendik's Fortress (0)  
Started playing through this. It's fun so far. Seems like you've gotten plenty of feedback for level 1, so here's a pack of demos. I very much doubt I broke anything. I can provide some commentary for specific rooms, but they all seemed solid for the most part. There are three minor things I guess that I'll point out.

For 1N I there's a minor issue. If I clear the room completely on the West side and then re-enter from 2N2E, I can clear the eastern part to get to 1N without the movement restriction. This is really not a big deal though I guess since the movement restriction isn't really that onerous in the first place.

In 1S1E it took me a bit to parse everything out and for a while I thought it was going to be a race against the briar. It took me a bit to realize I was supposed to time the snakes so that the briar didn't grow at all. I think it would have helped the have the "fail" pressure plate start at (12,16) to really emphasize the fact that you don't want briar growing at all.

1S1W is a pretty short room, but it would still probably be good to have a checkpoint somewhere, possibly around the pressure plate.

I'll try to get to the levels that have fewer comments soon.

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04-22-2017 at 04:13 AM
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Insoluble
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File: Fendiks Fortress WIP.demo (29.1 KB)
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icon Re: Fendik's Fortress (0)  
Played through most of levels 2 and 3 though I skipped some secret rooms. Still enjoying this for the most part, though for level 2 you definitely got a rather unfortunate roll from the RNG. Some of the rooms there were a bit on the fiddly side, though with the elements you constrained yourself to work with that's almost inevitable. Demos are attached as before, and comments are secreted mostly for length. Again, I don't really think I broke anything since a lot of the rooms were pretty open ended.

Level 2:
Click here to view the secret text


Level 3:
Click here to view the secret text


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Click here to view the secret text

04-24-2017 at 07:57 AM
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