hyperme
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1062
Registered: 06-23-2006
IP: Logged

File: Get Your Stuff Back.drh (30.2 KB)
Downloaded 50 times.
License: Public Domain

I started an RPG hold. It has gems, keys and potions. It also has a story to explain why you are killing monsters and getting loot.

Changes



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Qzvlkx?

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[Last edited by hyperme at 04-24-2017 06:15 PM]

Gordius
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 91
Registered: 12-16-2008
IP: Logged

Just finished the first level, and I'd reiterate some of the balance comments Nuntar made with the addition that it's actually pretty hard to get the sword if you don't go for it almost immediately. My first run, I was finding cheap places to build up stats, and quickly found myself without enough health to kill the eyes, with no way to get more. The second run, I basically picked up a cheap stat gem, then checked whether I could kill the two eyes yet, picked up another gem, etc. Then, with the sword, the range of places I could access opened up substantially, including, as Nuntar noted, the shield.

One minor other nitpick. When the lesser guard turns to leave, if you've attacked him from the above left, he'll hit you again on the way out, but if you've attacked from the lower left, he won't. I'm not opposed to having it coded so he hits you (well, I am, but not strongly), but it shouldn't happen differently just based on where you happened to stand.

hyperme
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1062
Registered: 06-23-2006
IP: Logged

I've posted a new version with some changes based on feedback. More money/health trades are available, money is now required in a few places and the monsters blocking the sword are now different.

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Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4590
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Completed the revised first level. Stats: 693 HP, 30 ATK, 30 DEF, 123 GR, 3/2/0 keys.

I like the idea of encouraging the player to get ATK before the sword, but perhaps 15 should be the three-hit threshold rather than two-hit, so the player has to think about managing their HP as well. Getting the shield is already well-structured; this time I waited until 28 ATK so I could kill the eyes and save keys.

The altar increment system is still very low compared to TT: with a first difference of 16 and a second difference of 2, the sequence of costs goes 16, 32, 50, 70, 92, 126... It's not much more than a linear increase. Compare this to TT: 20, 40, 80, 140, 220, 320, 440... Because the default monsters were built around this progression, your progression will give a lot more uses and has the potential for very fast stat increase if the player can afford to wait until the last altar. Not necessarily a problem, just something to be aware of. If you want to change things, increasing the second difference (perhaps to 16) would be the best move.

The only thing I think really needs changing is the boss, who is a complete wimp with 40 ATK (lower than a Spider, which the player has already fought).

And one more typo: "moring" in HHD intro text.

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50th Skywatcher

Lucky Luc
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1215
Registered: 08-19-2012
IP: Logged

Alright, actually pretty doable once I figured out a working strategy.

Basically, the key to the level seem to be the Defender Roaches, and I'm not sure if they're balanced well enough yet, since there seems to be only one reasonable way to handle them right now:

- In order to one-shot them, you'd need to collect 9 of 10 ATK gems, so you'd have to fight at least one spider before picking up the sword, which seems pretty ridiculous.

- On the other hand, in order to two-shot them, you only need 5 ATK gems, and since the yellow key + greckle route seems preferable to the green key route (so you have to kill some stuff anyway), picking them up is pretty simple.

- Well I guess you could use the altar to boost your ATK and go for a one-shot, but reaching the altar alone seems to be too expensive to even be worth it.

Of course, this isn't necessarily a bad thing; it just keeps the level relatively simple. And since I've just recently called for more beginner-friendly holds, I really shouldn't complain -- it's actually a pretty neat exercise in basic RPG strategy.

Somewhat optimized stats:
419 HP
29 ATK
30 DEF
98 GR
2/0/0 Keys

I've left behind quite a few favorable trades (mostly HP and keys) since this hold appears to be backtrackable and there may be easier rewards on the second level.

(Okay wow, even after taking those trades I'm still roughly 250 HP behind Nuntar. So much for somewhat optimized )

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3624
Registered: 10-06-2005
IP: Logged

I'll second that it's fairly easy to get to the kill-in-2-hits attack threshold for Defender Roaches, at which point they do even less damage than the eyes would have at similar statistics.

I also think the yellow door in 3N leading to the first altar is kind of pointless right now - long-term strategy will involve ignoring the first altar entirely so as to spend altar uses at later altars, so there's no point in spending a yellow key on 9 GR and 100 health. If there were 500 health in there then there might be incentive to go in there early, and maybe incidentally use the altar if it turns out to be useful for getting access to the second altar easier. And, as it is now there's definitely no reason to spend a green key to enter there, since green keys are rare and will probably be important for progression or goodies later on.

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Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):

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[Last edited by Chaco at 10-27-2016 07:10 PM]

kieranmillar
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 2670
Registered: 07-11-2014
IP: Logged

Minor notes:

* Typo when getting the wooden sword: "traing sword"
* When killing the boss you'll should use the "wait for defeat" command instead of checking the health variable and immediately follow it with the cutscene activation to get the scorepoint to trigger instantly and not require the player to make a move before the scorepoint and cutscene begin.
* In the intro it probably makes more sense to have the thief actually open the doors instead of doing that odd jump, you can toggle any door at any time with the command "Activate Item At" and choosing the door as the target.

Not too much to say regarding gameplay that has not already been said. It works fine as is but I will re-iterate the large cost to get to the first altar is no way worth it.

hyperme
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1062
Registered: 06-23-2006
IP: Logged

New version, with new changes:

+The second level. Collect more gems, keys and other goodies
*Re-balanced some stuff in Hideaway mountains:
>Defender Roaches are slightly tougher
>Lake Spirit is cheaper to reach
>More potions in some places
>Lesser Guard is slightly stronger


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Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4590
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

HM is slightly harder now, I had to buy HP at one point to progress and again to defeat the boss. End stats: 6 HP, 30 ATK, 30 DEF, 92 GR, 122 REP, 3/2/0 keys.

Chortle Brothers Defeated! Stats:

277 HP (+ 200 to pick up + 250 on Level 1)
82 ATK
73 DEF
374 GR
956 REP
2/0/0 keys (+ one on Level 1)

Rather an odd level. The early part was well-balanced, then I got 60 ATK (using the Lake Spirit twice) to one-shot the Tough Guy for the shield, which also made the Olivine Golem do no damage. As there were barely any HP refills in the second half of the level, I had to use the Lake Spirit's HP option for the bosses. To get the blue key, I chose to spend a green key rather than kill a Grime Baby for ~800 damage, which was pretty much a non-choice as, again, no way to gain HP.

I completely forgot I had a backtracking option, since I've been playtesting Tetrahedron a lot. It wouldn't have made much difference, since all I left behind was a small amount of HP, one key behind a Spider, and 1 DEF behind a yellow door, which I probably won't pick up as I expect to be able to get more with my keys on later levels.

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50th Skywatcher

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3624
Registered: 10-06-2005
IP: Logged

Here's my statistics:



Remarks: HM felt a little harder this time around, but not a lot harder - I did have to kill a few more roaches to open one more greckle gate (I think the one in HM 3N1E is new?), but it didn't change my route much. Still ignored the first altar, since spending a green key to get immediate access to 150 HP is in no way worth it, especially with the need to use green keys on the later levels - you might have to throw in an additional 500 to 600 HP just for using that green door to make that trade worthwhile.

I used the second altar 3 times for ATK when I first got there; that made enemies like the Gray Man mid-boss and the Bladites do a lot less damage, so it's probably worthwhile compared to trying to tough things out with just 2 altar uses. Still, depending on how long this goes on the 2 ATK use route might wind up being better in the long run. I had the choice of killing a Grime Baby for ~600 damage instead of 800, which would have been better than using a green key, but I ended up spending the green key to bypass it anyway since that's one of the better key -> save health trades in the level. (For example, there's no yellow key -> 400 HP or green key -> 800 HP trades at all, which is an interesting way to add difficulty to the level.)

The great emphasis on using keys to get resources as soon as possible, to fight monsters easier, means it's definitely important to use as few keys as possible in level 1 to make level 2 easier. I didn't take this to the extreme, but I did avoid the same +1 DEF gem in HM 3N1E that Nuntar did - maybe it's worth putting some extra health in there to re-incentivize it.

I made heavy use of backtracking to get the green keys in HM when they became free; this helped a lot with progression.

I spent a lot of money on health in FF with the idea of keeping the altar cost low and coming back for the speed potion later; I'm assuming the speed potion and orb will only be "best used" much later, at which point killing a single tar baby and spending 500 GR won't be such a high price anymore.

Overall I think the bosses are at a fine balance point; they show marked improvements from both individual ATK gems and DEF gems, and don't do too much damage. Heavier altar use would make them even easier to kill.

Looking forward to the third level, as always!

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Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3624
Registered: 10-06-2005
IP: Logged

Did a DEF route just for comparison's sake - restored back to the end of level 1, then used the level 2 altar 3 times for 12 DEF instead of for ATK:



The level actually played mostly the same: this time I fought the Olivine Golem first (at 59 DEF, so it did minimal damage), then immediately used the Short Sword to kill the Tough Guy. Getting a green key for the Bronze Shield wasn't hard. Afterwards, the level went mostly the same, with the exception that I didn't kill any tar babies for rewards this time since they were tougher.

So, with DEF, Bladites, Goblins and Tar Babies are tougher, but Gray Men are harmless and Mad Eyes will soon be harmless, which could be very important depending on how many Mad Eyes are protecting stuff on the later floor. To contrast, on an ATK route the monster difficulty is flipped, with Bladites, Goblins and Tar Babies being a bit easier, whereas Gray Men and Mad Eyes still do some damage (the former more than the latter).

The bosses were notably tougher this time, since ATK not only helps against Baul (who you want to reach ATK checkpoints on to get one fewer hit from), but also against Parry (to greatly reduce the number of times he hits you, which is roughly equivalent to taking less damage per hit at the current numbers). Baul did 565 and Parry did 299 damage, whereas on the ATK route each did less (about 300 and 200, respectively).

There hasn't been much room for divergence yet but I assume things will continue to diverge further as the levels progress.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):

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[Last edited by Chaco at 11-09-2016 01:11 AM]

hyperme
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1062
Registered: 06-23-2006
IP: Logged

Version 4!

+New room for Fortified Fortress
+More HP type trades in FF also
*Speed Potion has a different cost
*Bladites infused with 20 extra money
*Adding lighting effects and stuff to a few rooms

note: may have minimal testing done


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Gordius
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 91
Registered: 12-16-2008
IP: Logged

I entered the Hall of Thieving with 1543/78/74 and no keys, having not used either altar so far. There's still some more I could pick up in the trash heap area, but it's clearly not optimal at this stage without altar trips first. I also haven't accessed either of the accessories yet. There might be a positive trade-off to getting them and using them before now, but I'd want to see what the HoT is going to look like.

Out of curiosity, I checked the altar just now and I have enough greckles for five uses, but not six. Since I was trying not to use the altars, I've spent more greckles on health trades than I really needed to, but I should be able to get here with enough for six uses in future runs (assuming no major changes). That said, I'd be far more likely to use the greckles getting the speed potion.

Someone Else
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1300
Registered: 06-14-2005
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Looking good so far! I just beat FF with 414/77/77 and 933 greckles. I'm absolutely sure that I could do better - I went and bought all the health I could (but didn't use the Lake Spirit), and there are things I could change around if I bought the health earlier. I also have 2 yellow keys.

hyperme
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1062
Registered: 06-23-2006
IP: Logged

I have put much work into creating the third level. It is now available and I would like to know opinions about it.

Currently it has not got a boss battle.

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Gordius
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 91
Registered: 12-16-2008
IP: Logged

I've gotten to the blue doors in the new level, but will need to optimize a bit better to get past them. My only comment so far is that the red door in 4N3W is only a possible obstacle if you use the backpack beyond the red tiles, which has always felt more like a bug than an intentional mechanism to me.

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4590
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Opened the blue doors:

3056 HP
256 ATK
199 DEF
2828 GR
4/2/0 keys

After cleaning up leftovers:

5705 HP
280 ATK
199 DEF
5 GR
4/7/0 keys
Speed potion

I have killed the brain in 1S1E (it was worth killing the monsters for the small potions, and this made the brain free), so I could get the hand bomb cheaply. I can also trade a GK for the portable orb at any time. I could get everything from 4N3E for a cost of 750 HP, which I could make back by spending the green key I gained in the room, for an overall gain of 8 ATK, 8 DEF, two keys.

Overall, the third level was up to the standard of the first two, pretty fun and never difficult to approach. It took me a while to build up the stats necessary to go for the sword and shield, which I think is what you wanted. It felt like there wasn't much of a choice in terms of going for sword first or shield first; shield first would have cost around 4000 HP, while it was relatively easy to gain the 105 ATK threshold so Grime Babies did under 400 damage each.

After getting the sword and shield, the level became much easier, with many rooms giving good stuff relatively cheap. An example was 4N3W, where taking 400 damage to kill the brain was a no-brainer, considering how much good stuff the room gave after that.

Finally, I played through the level again, this time taking only DEF at the Level 3 altar (but still on my saved game that took ATK in Level 2). I like the way this made some parts harder and some easier, but everything was still approachable; by the endgame it was even profitable to tackle 4N3E (score profit, not HP profit).

Final DEF route stats:

3007 HP
216 ATK
287 DEF
33 GR
7/8/0 keys

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50th Skywatcher

Gordius
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 91
Registered: 12-16-2008
IP: Logged

As it turned out, I was able to get enough health various places to get the three blue keys and move on. If there had been a boss, I'd have been in trouble, but there were several places I could have handled better on this floor, so I think it could be done. Alternatively, I could have used the orb to get the eastmost blue key, instead of spending ~1000 HP, which would probably put most bosses in a realistic place.

376/178/184 0/2/0 Portable Orb

This is all without any uses of the altar on any floors. I'm very short on keys and health, and there's not much else I can realistically get on this floor without using an altar. So that's something to consider in making a boss. It's always frustrating to be able to get to a boss without using altars, but then be unable to kill (or even hit) it.

hyperme
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1062
Registered: 06-23-2006
IP: Logged

Update 6 - there is now a final boss, you can win the hold, and spend extra money to get more stats in a final post-boss altar.

Also take on the Chaos Exarch, a bonus boss that is probably not as hard as it should be.

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Qzvlkx?

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4590
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Bug: The cutscene in which Harold Q Thievings leaves 6N produces an error beep. The square where he stood remains solid (until after leaving the room and re-entering).

Chaos Exarch is unkillable on DEF path since it has very high DEF. On ATK path I have 5k HP left after HQT, Exarch does 2400 damage, so it's killable without saving any altar uses for the last altar. Also, if I clear HoT 4N3E, the CE's damage goes down to below 2000.

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50th Skywatcher

hyperme
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1062
Registered: 06-23-2006
IP: Logged

New version. Chaos Exarch has changed forms, so now DEF routes can fight it too.

I'm not getting the issue Nuntar reported, so if anyone else does, please mention it.


Anyhow, this could be the version going to the HAs, so yay, I finished a thing!

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Qzvlkx?

Gordius
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 91
Registered: 12-16-2008
IP: Logged

I get the same problem with Harold that Nuntar does. The vacated square remains impassible until I leave to the south and then return. Other than that, I think this looks good. I wasn't able to kill the Exarch, but everything up to that point was manageable without being simple.

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4590
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

I still have the same issue with 6N, even though I can't see anything in the script that would cause it, so it might be an engine bug?

Chaos Exarch is now killable on DEF route and suitably difficult for bonus boss status. Stats:

2824 HP (expected damage 2730)
216 ATK
287 DEF
3/5/0 keys

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50th Skywatcher

hyperme
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1062
Registered: 06-23-2006
IP: Logged

I changed the script in 6N a little. Does it stop the glitching?

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3-headed monkey
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 11
Registered: 03-11-2018
IP: Logged

This was a really fun hold and I actually felt motivated enough to have a go at optimising it up to a point, I ended up with:

HP 4576
288
208
8/7/0
Score 2398
after beating the extra thing.

Still some improvement to be had there as I didn't get round to figuring out how to use the special items properly, will probably come back to this later.

Thanks for making this hyperme, I had a lot of fun with it.