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hyperme
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icon Quest for Home (+2)  
So, I've decided to give this DROD RPG Level Set making a go. Only properly by myself.

So far there are four levels. You can get to around 100 in ATK and DEF.

So yeah, constructive criticism is welcome.

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[Last edited by hyperme at 09-02-2013 07:54 PM : Update? Is it true?]
03-08-2012 at 08:47 PM
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Blondbeard
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icon Re: Quest for Home (+1)  
Uhh... You have a regular slayer standing in front of the not so tough slayer. Seems kind of hard core :)
03-08-2012 at 09:30 PM
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-The fighter roaches drop no money or reputation. Unless this was a deliberate decision, I would recommed 3 GR and 3 REP, since they are about as difficult as wraithwings.

-Aside from the normal slayer, like Blondbeard mentioned, defeating 3rd Slayer does not give a score point. I made a copy, removed the slayer, added a score point, and found that I would have obtained a lovely 170 for my hard work.

I like this hold so far. You should keep building for it, hyperme!

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03-08-2012 at 10:53 PM
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hyperme
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icon Re: Quest for Home (+3)  
It's an update, with another level! Go grab it from the fist post.

Changelog thing:
Click here to view the secret text


Not to sure about the difficulty on this. I may want to cut down on potions or add some hotiles in places.

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03-21-2012 at 08:09 PM
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hyperme
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So, the five people who have downloaded, any comments yet? If you haven't had a chance to play it yet, whatever, but it's kind of disconserting when people say there aren't enough RPG Level Sets and yet nobody comments.

Also sort of delays in building the next level where the story will begin actually.

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03-26-2012 at 04:55 PM
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Woo! That was fun, and definitely much more difficult than the first version.

I think that there should be choices for more things. For example, in Isolation Level 2N, the player either gets to kill a Blade Holder or walk past the blades. Perhaps there could be a choice to take damage from the blade wielders or use some keys and skip past it.

Just my thoughts so far.

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03-26-2012 at 05:44 PM
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Chaco
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icon Re: Quest for Home (+1)  
First of all, I'll start off by saying that it's wonderful that we have another RPG hold being started, and that at this rate it's very plausible it'll be finished within a reasonable amount of time ;)

I think the difficulty of this hold is pretty good - there's definitely a challenge in getting enough resources to beat the bosses and still have enough life left over to continue onwards, and it was interesting to figure out what order to fight each monster in the hold.

--

Now for the inevitable part where I suggest things that would make the hold better:

The first thing I should note is about hot tiles. In this hold, hot tiles do a constant amount of damage, unlike default behavior. I'm glad this is explained. While I think there's some puzzle potential in this, I think unfortunately the way they're used right now pretty much trivializes most rooms they're in. For example, in Abyssal Floors: Twice South Once West, the main point is that there is a +1 DEF gem, and the question is how to get it with the least loss. However, there are only three ways to get it: either take a constant 30 damage, fight a Fighter Roach (which does a lot of damage early on) or spend a yellow key and take a hit from the fighter roach.

In theory, this is fine, except that because of the hot tile choice being available very early on, it's best to just take the 30 damage and get +1 DEF for every single monster fought in the entire hold. A yellow key to save 15 damage is a poor trade, and the choice to take hundreds of damage for 3 greckles isn't really a choice, especially when you can come back much, much later and kill the fighter roach anyway.

Similarly, in Thrice South Once West, you can either spend a green key (!) for +1 ATK and +1 DEF, or you can just take 10 damage for that same +1 ATK and +1 DEF, and make up for that 10 damage almost immediately by fighting some monsters.

Similarly, in Isolation Level Twice North Twice West, it's so obviously better to take 30 damage from the hot tiles to get to the upper part for rewards than to fight either an Evil Eye or a Blade Holder, since 30 damage just isn't much to worry about. You can even come back later and kill a spider to get the remaining stuff, and you never have to kill a blade holder.

Now, of course, by avoiding fighting these tricky monsters I am losing out on some Greckles. However, you get enough Greckles from fighting more mundane monsters (such as evil eyes and spiders) that as long as you have 50 GR for the +5 ATK chamber, you really aren't in danger of running out of money and not being able to purchase more health to fight the Mud Mother at the end. After you kill the Sentries and get the Wooden Shield, you're pretty much set for money - I had over 100 GR at the end of the second level just from killing monsters that couldn't hurt me anymore.

--

Okay, so point 1 is just to watch out for "not-a-choice" choices. What's next?

I guess the only other suggestion I would have is that you have a couple of rooms where you get to make a choice between more-or-less free rewards, at the cost of sealing off the other ones. Rooms like Abyssal Floors 1S1W, Isolation Level 2W and 4N2W. The trouble here is that nothing is blocking them - you can walk right up and just take whatever you need, and typically you want the ATK so you can fight the level boss, or keys so that you can either buy ATK gems or buy health. For instance, in Isolation Level 4N2W there is no reason to ever fight the Blade Holder for the +1 ATK when you can pick up three yellow keys in that same room, and only spend two of them opening yellow doors to bypass it.

--

So, what's the solution to these problems? Well, I'm not really exactly sure what to suggest, since I'm admittedly inexperienced myself at addressing these kinds of issues in my own hold. But I think it's important, when setting up a decision point, to not only think about what the decision means in terms of resources lost and resources gained, but what resources are plentiful in the hold as a whole, and which ones are rare. In this case I had plenty of keys but needed to be very careful with my HP.

The other thing to keep in mind is the unstable equilibrium. We've already introduced an example here, which is the wooden shield: the earlier you can manage to get it, the easier the hold will be in the long run. I managed to get it at 31 ATK, where I had just enough HP (and gained enough greckles) so that I could make a clean getaway, and that pretty much streamlined the rest of the level. Anyone who was still struggling at this point, with fewer HP and fewer keys, would probably have to spend keys to get more HP, which would leave him with fewer keys compared to me in the next level. (Or they could restart until they do get the shield earlier, with fewer keys spent.)

One thing that might make the issue about when to get the shield more interesting by offering an alternative to getting it as soon as possible (that is, making it more attractive to wait for getting it) would be to actually increase the number of sentries guarding the shield. For example, you could put the four of them behind a force arrow along with a +200 HP potion, such that the player couldn't get the potion without having to fight all four sentries. Since each sentry did about 114 damage to me when I fought them, this wouldn't really change the difficulty of getting the shield, but if a player waited until he had more ATK to get the shield, they would save a whole bunch of HP relative to the player who rushed in. Then it would be a complicated comparison of HP saved between getting the shield early or late, which might mitigate the unstable equilibrium thing.

--

So, ultimately, I don't really have any specific advice for you, just some words of warning. Also I think you should probably get some people to proofread your hold for English stylistic conventions, and also you should play through your hold several times so you don't miss oddities like the useless force arrow in Abyssal Floors 2S, the tunnel blocking automatic pathing in Isolation Floor 1W, or the text cutting off in "Isolation Level Mud Cleared" score checkpoint to become "Isolation Level Mud Cl".

(And now I need to take a break.)

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[Last edited by Chaco at 03-26-2012 09:25 PM]
03-26-2012 at 09:15 PM
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Blondbeard
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icon Re: Quest for Home (0)  
Slayer defeted: 18/29/18, with two yellow keys.

edit:Mud Mother defeated: 26/33/33/10/2 = 404. I still have some keys and some powerups to pick up, but judged it best to leave them for later.

[Last edited by Blondbeard at 03-27-2012 06:12 AM]
03-26-2012 at 09:28 PM
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Blondbeard
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icon Re: Quest for Home (0)  
quote:
Chaco wrote:
For instance, in Isolation Level 4N2W there is no reason to ever fight the Blade Holder for the +1 ATK when you can pick up three yellow keys in that same room, and only spend two of them opening yellow doors to bypass it.



Actually I found this an interesting decission. I solved it by leaving the ATK gem for later. Two keys for one ATK gem is very expensive, if you have the option to obtain it later for free.
03-27-2012 at 06:23 AM
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Chaco
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icon Re: Quest for Home (0)  
Attached are my two score checkpoints for the hold.

--

Hmm, now that's interesting, since I took a different approach of getting 35 ATK so I would take one fewer hit per Mud Mother battle - five total, since I had to fight five mud squares. This saved me 14 x 5 = 70 damage compared to if I had one fewer ATK, and I pretty much had to get all the ATK in the hold to get that much ATK.

Plus, I have more ATK going into the third level, and don't have to wait until getting 40 ATK and/or 100 DEF before I pick up that particular power gem :)

I had 5 yellow keys and 2 green keys going into the third level, so I guess I was a bit more liberal with spending yellow keys early on than you were. You'll probably be set up better for the endgame at this rate.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 03-27-2012 06:34 AM]
03-27-2012 at 06:33 AM
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Midootje
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I like this hold. The availability of keys allows you to make choices in a way that doesn't ask you IF you need to use a key, but WHERE. I like that. Also, the 50 greckle threshold was a fun element to play with. It'd be great if we could see a Third Level sometime!

Also, my score at beating the Mud was:
226 HP
35 ATK
34 DEF
4/3/0 keys
164 GR
244 REP
And a total score of 382.
I don't have a scorepoint for the slayer, but I left the roach queen in the First Level until I had 31 ATK, and killing it gave me exactly 50 greckles for the Wooden Shield. After that, I killed the eyes in the First Level when I had 32 DEF.

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[Last edited by Midootje at 07-28-2012 02:12 PM]
07-28-2012 at 02:11 PM
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hyperme
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Good news! The third level is on it's way. It's about half or three quarters done, depending on how I much I worry about various choices, how much HP I dole out on average, and if I should more green keys. Also I added in more hot tiles in places, so starting from the beginning is required, since I copied the hold to find out what I changed between Level 2 appearing and old PC dieing. Which means new ID, and old saves not working.

Enough rambling, I guess. Of course, the two important things that appear in Level 3:

Altar System! Except instead of getting twice as much DEF, the buy-able ATK and DEF are equal. HP also available, but who buys that?
Wightwings! They ignore defense. This may start a pattern. What kind of pattern is not being revealed.

Okay rambling is happening again. So look out for the next update hopefully some time next week if I work on it properly.

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08-04-2012 at 10:06 PM
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Midootje
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It's lovely that you're working on the Third Level!
However, I have one remark: if you are going to include monsters that ignore defense, will it not be true that your only viable option for the altar system will be ATK? I mean, if the DEF gained from it is the same as the ATK, and some monsters will even ignore DEF, then isn't getting DEF from the altar even more stupid than health?

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08-05-2012 at 06:04 PM
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hyperme
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quote:
Midootje wrote:
It's lovely that you're working on the Third Level!
However, I have one remark: if you are going to include monsters that ignore defense, will it not be true that your only viable option for the altar system will be ATK? I mean, if the DEF gained from it is the same as the ATK, and some monsters will even ignore DEF, then isn't getting DEF from the altar even more stupid than health?


I've taken this into account with some enemy concepts for later levels. Most ones with four or five digit health bars, but I've got some other plans as well.

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08-05-2012 at 06:27 PM
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hyperme
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It's an update, with another level! Go grab it from the fist post.

Changelog thing:

Click here to view the secret text


So it's the third level after five months. Comments welcome.

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08-06-2012 at 06:55 PM
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Suwako
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First time I've played this hold and I liked it a lot, great job!.

I realized that there are in the first level a good amount of green keys, but no green doors so them there never a problem. In the second level

The pit puzzle in 1N 2W of the isolation level is great, and the boss was very hard, I needed 35 of ATK to destroy the mud mother and i left with 35hp, the third level is easy, i went to 1S 3E and, cause green keys aren't a problem i got the big potion and did the entire level.

My end-stats are 232/55/53 with 4 yellow and green keys.

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[Last edited by Suwako at 08-07-2012 12:33 AM]
08-07-2012 at 12:30 AM
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Blondbeard
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All done! I didn't use the power stone, since I guess more powerful stones will be available later on (as is the case with alters). ;y stats: 189/55/51/7/8. Nice to see some progress!
08-07-2012 at 09:13 AM
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hyperme
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Looks like Green Keys are pretty hoardable. I guess green keys will be required for getting the next equipment upgrades. I could also add in some green doors to the third level, such as behind the Sentry in 1S and as part of the vault structure in 1S2E.

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08-08-2012 at 04:40 PM
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komachi
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End the hold, is really nice.
The first and second level was dificult for me. Must choose a good way for get the gems and without losing a considerable amount of life.
The third level was less dificult than the others levels but was nice.

My end stats are 388/53/53 2/6. without use the powerstone.
08-11-2012 at 05:46 PM
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Just completed the 3 levels, very enjoyable! I didn't use the stone.

My stats on completion are
Click here to view the secret text


I also can collect 2 more green keys and a yellow for a loss of 94 HP.

A couple of slight oddities - there is an open grackle gate in level 1 that seems to serve no purpose- closing it allows no wall walking - why is it there?

Also there is a tunnel in the room on the second level with 2 Bladeholders guarding a DEF gem, nowhere seems to lead to it, again why is it there?

I liked the use of the tunnel in L31W to allow you to see the next room before killing stuff/using keys to get there. This is imo god practise when designing a hold and something others should take note of.
07-07-2013 at 12:52 PM
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hyperme
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So I finally got it together, grabbed some inspiration and finished the fourth level. It contains monsters, items, doors and a mechanic that doesn't really do anything yet but I guess makes optimizing more interesting. Also I can't remember if I changed previous levels slightly because I'm terrible.

Anyhow, I can complete the level and I'm not the best RPG player, so have a try and tell me what is bad. Or good.

(Level Set is in the First Post)

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[Last edited by hyperme at 09-02-2013 07:57 PM]
09-02-2013 at 07:57 PM
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Gordius
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I finished up the new material and ended with 89/77 stats. I wasn't able to do it without picking up anything that will be worth more later, but came pretty close. Obviously, the gems in the room with the blue key are lost if you don't get them now, and I needed a little more health to defeat the golem. But I picked up almost no extra gems and then only to get potions behind them. My guess is that (aside from the blue key gems) it is possible to finish this level without picking up anything that might be worth more later. It's hard to know, but I feel like the balance may be hard to manage with this mechanism.

That said, if I also knew that there was going to be a higher value power stone (altar) later in the hold, I might prefer to approach that balance differently.

As a more minor concern, calling the increased multiplier a "secret" in the informational choices made me think that maybe it would be spoilery and I wouldn't want to read it. If the intent is that everyone know about this going in, it may be worth framing it a little differently. "What else is it important that I know?" or something like that.
09-03-2013 at 09:11 PM
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Midootje
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Alright so the new Level is pretty nice. Although I couldn't leave a lot behind (mostly DEF gems, since ATK ones were needed for the Golem), I wonder at what point in the Level you're going to implement the multiplier changes. It makes for some interesting calculations. That way, even the 'always-safe-to-pick-up' health should be left behind if possible. Anyway, finished the Golem with 91 ATK, 89 DEF, 300 ish HP, 2 of every key and 600 GR. Really excited about meeting the implementation and a new altar.

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09-04-2013 at 01:36 PM
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