agaricus5
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I have noticed that there has been talk of forum slowdown and seen a number of possibilities for why this should be, and what could be done about it.

I can't say myself if this is indeed the case, since I've only just got back, but it does feel a lot quieter here than I expected. In fact, I sometimes spend more time reading old posts than I do new ones (which perhaps I shouldn't be doing)!

So, if you are reading this, please would you take the time to fill out the poll above? It won't take long, and you'll be providing us with valuable information about what we could do to improve the forums.

Even if you don't usually care enough to do something like this, will you bend the rules for me just once? Triple-scoop please with a cherry on top?

Go on: You know you want to.

And in case I am duplicating a pre-existing poll somewhere, I apologise; I didn't see it in my trawls through older threads.

____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

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[Last edited by agaricus5 at 03-03-2009 02:54 AM]

zex20913
Level: Smitemaster

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I think there are a couple of things contributing to possible downturns in activity.

One: (Purely personal, for me) I moved, and took some time adjusting to my newer, awesomer, surroundings.

DROD relatedness--

One: RPG. When it came out, there was quite a bit of enthusiasm. Tons of excitement for the product, and a lot of great ideas cropping up from it...but then they hit a ceiling. The scoring system/spider system wasn't fully operational upon release, and it's still not. Everything's being held up, hold-wise, and the only possibilities for new holds are on the Architecture board. People don't see the fruits of their labors, and don't feel as rewarded for it.

This, in turn, has more infrequent players wondering what's up with this RPG thing. Why are there so few holds for it?

Also, it sort of diverted from TCB. I know that when I was fanatically playing RPG, it was difficult to switch back to TCB, and even looking at rooms was diabolically confusing--how did I ever play that game! Every room is so comparatively huge!

Two: The Erik saga. When the creator of a project drops off, others tend to follow shortly thereafter. If he doesn't have the passion anymore, where will mine lead? Yes, Mike does an awesome job, but he's not the conceptualizer.

Of course, it could just be a relative downturn. Perhaps the global economic crisis is making some people think that there are more important things than a computer game.

I know I'm not contributing much to the fixing of these problems, but I figured I'd throw my opinion into the ring.

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12th Archivist
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 789
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I also believe that there is too little activity. It's slowing down because of older-generation people such as yourselves coming back (I'm not sure why you all came at once). Unfortunately, because Erik left, the activity is low. On average, there are less than 30 posts per day, and less than 10 topics per week!

I too have enjoyed looking at "Ye Olde Thyme" posts from previous years. There's just not enough new content being poured into the site. In fact, I'm almost to the point where I would prefer random crap on the site than nothing. Now in a quality-over-quantity forum, that's saying a lot!

The world isn't really coming to an end (at least hopefully), but a lot of people think it is. Who cares if the south pole becomes north and vise-versa? The worst thing that will (probably) happen is that compasses will become screwed up, not all life on the planet will cease to exist.

Besides, even if the world were coming to an end, I'd rather go happy than go in desperation.

That's my opinion. Hmm, maybe I should throw my hat into the ring as well.

____________________________
It was going well until it exploded.
~Scott Manley

Check out the DROD Wikia project here!

Hoff
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 42
Registered: 08-23-2004
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I came back to DROD after about a three year hiatus which started shortly after JtRH was released. I was surprised to see two whole new games.

I certainly wouldn't mind being a more active member of the community but I don't think I'm diabolical enough to either submit holds or go for high score runs or whatever. If anything I would like to participate in the development although that seems to have slowed down...?

robin
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 845
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I visit the forum several times a week,
but I post less because, when someting is said(written), I don't feel it necessary to repeat it when I share the same opinion.
And I also don't post when I don't have a clue what people are talking about, because of my bad english.

But I enjoy this forum, specially now, when all the "old"-folks are returning, perhaps I'm just kinda one of them

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NiroZ
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I think it is purely and advertisement problem. DROD simply isn't getting out there, to the people who would be interested in it. If it was better advertised, there would be a greater influx of people, thus more idea's, holds, stuff exetera and discussion. The bungling of the illumination also lost a lot of people, IMHO.

CuriousShyRabbit
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3170
Registered: 10-14-2006
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I'm sorry to see that some people feel too intimidated to post, because we desperately need more participation in several areas. Even if you don't feel that you can create a new hold, there are plenty of places to jump in. Here are two examples:

1. Rating and reviewing holds on the Holds board. User made holds are an incredible asset to DROD. While the official holds hold a special place in my heart because they were some of the first holds I played, my very favorite holds are certain of the free user-made holds. So how do you know what's a good user-made hold for you to play? By looking through the user ratings and reviews, of course! But those only give an accurate picture of what to expect if everyone (including you!) votes and hopefully leaves a comment too. Another nice thing about posting why you liked or disliked a hold is, you can't possibly be wrong! (They're your feelings, after all.)

2. Beta testing holds in Architecture. Those terrific holds on the Holds board had to come from somewhere... The first version of hold is always full of all kinds of little issues, and we need your help to iron them all out. There might be stairs that go to the wrong place, a room might have an unintentionally trivial solution, another room might have an unintentionally insanely difficult solution, there might be a never-ending cutscene, there might be an amazingly fun puzzle that you'd like to see the architect make more of. You get the picture. At least three sets of eyes are needed to properly beta test any given hold, and too many are making do with less than that. We need you!!!

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
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The poll is generating some intriguing results. Although it's too early to be sure this is a good picture of what is going on, here's a quick analysis so far!

Interestingly, most respondents are older members. We need more newbies voting! While this could just be a statistical blip, I suspect that these people, who are an important part of our demographic, are less likely to come into the General forum and less likely to visit this thread, despite my best efforts. Maybe we could have the announcement changed temporarily (say for 1 week) to ask people to vote here if they haven't already?

Of these older members, many appear to be lurkers. What this suggests is that while it may look quiet here, there could be potentially be people browsing discreetly. It also suggests that at least some of us still care enough about what may be going on here, despite there being a low volume of posts.

As for why people aren't active, there is some consensus that this is circular; low activity leads to personal inactivity, which then perpetuates itself. Although this is kind of stating the obvious.

Also understandable is the fact that many of us are busy (myself included). Danforth wouldn't be pleased, but then again, if we bought DROD...

What is more surprising is the current 3rd place answer (at least to me):

12th Archivist wrote:
I also believe that there is too little activity. It's slowing down because of older-generation people such as yourselves coming back (I'm not sure why you all came at once).

I would have thought us coming back would have sped things up slightly?

Part of the small influx (I think) may be related to TCB boxsets being shipped.

NiroZ wrote:I think it is purely and advertisement problem. DROD simply isn't getting out there, to the people who would be interested in it. If it was better advertised, there would be a greater influx of people, thus more idea's, holds, stuff exetera and discussion.

That is true, but I would have thought our community here is big enough to be somewhat self-sustaining. Clearly it isn't, but I am wondering if part of that is because we aren't making full use of everyone here.

The bungling of the illumination also lost a lot of people, IMHO.

I would agree there, though. The Illumination is, and has always been, a good way to inject interest in the site (and remind everyone about it).

Edit: CSR is right. I also should be suggesting stuff we should be doing, rather than just talking (i.e. what calaramain suggested some time ago). Once we've got more data, I think it will prove useful in deciding what to do next.

____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

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[Last edited by agaricus5 at 03-03-2009 11:59 AM]

Jeff_Ray...
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 962
Registered: 05-16-2005
IP: Logged

No worries, folks! I'll be loyal to the DROD series until the very last moment. Ok, maybe not, but I am a proud fan of the series.

The reason I don't post a lot is, indeed, because I doubt of the forumites' appreciation of my post. I still give them rank points the importance they had three years ago, and while I don't mind losing one or two, it does get tough to make good content that is worth points, so I rarely post...

However, this is usually the first website I type in when I go on the Internet, looking for new holds to try, and interesting Forum Games to pertake in.

____________________________
I make Let's Plays too!
Click here to find out my LPs' progress, and find out what I plan to tackle next!

Currently playing:


My Holds:
-Completed:

-Work in Progress:

Jatopian
Level: Smitemaster
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Registered: 07-31-2005
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Erik could've handled the transition thing more smoothly and in such a way that it wouldn't have dealt a huge and possibly fatal blow to the community and by extension Caravel itself. He... didn't. Instead he just kind of up and left one day, and everything that was dependent on him - pretty much everything, in some small way - collapsed inward on the vacuum and ceased functioning. It's entirely possible this was burnout.

There were certainly other issues after that, but I think this was the problem. This insight doesn't help us much now, obviously.

____________________________
DROD has some really great music.
Make your pressure plates 3.0 style!
DROD architecture idea generator

RoboBob3000
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1980
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I can understand intimidation being a partial cause of the slowdown. There is an enormous number of boards on the forum, creating the illusion of tons of activity, which is just untrue. We need to clean some of this up so it's less visually intimidating.

Axe the bureaucracy. This is by far the biggest infraction. It's good in theory, but we need to implement it on a smaller scale and delete all of those unused boards. Maybe promoting some new people to administrative positions could help jump start things - our older admins seem to be feeling the burnout too.

Challenge boards - Is it just me, or are these outdated? Archive them.

Press Clippings - This could function as a single thread in General.

RPG H+S - There's got to be a better way to manage this. Hints don't really work on a room-by-room basis for this game. Could there be some way to integrate this with the hold's thread?

CrystalShard/Wonderquest - I'm a little torn here about what to do with these. They certainly bring in traffic of their own, which is great, but not all of us care about the activity on those boards. Maybe there is value in repurposing them down to a 3rd party board, where all sorts of indie developers can promote their work. We could all benefit from shared traffic, perhaps?

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http://beepsandbloops.wordpress.com/

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
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The poll is continuing to show a similar trend; it is beginning to look like community spirit is definitely an issue here. With 44 votes, we now have a potential 10% of the active forum population that have voted, confirming that there is definitely some life in the community yet!

"I don't feel anything I can do or post will be appreciated by the community" is continuing to occupy the #3 slot, which is somewhat worrying. What held this community together in the past was that sense of appreciation and teamwork we had in working together to make DROD better. Clearly something is wrong in that area.

Jatopian wrote:
Erik could've handled the transition thing more smoothly and in such a way that it wouldn't have dealt a huge and possibly fatal blow to the community and by extension Caravel itself. He... didn't. Instead he just kind of up and left one day, and everything that was dependent on him - pretty much everything, in some small way - collapsed inward on the vacuum and ceased functioning. It's entirely possible this was burnout.

There were certainly other issues after that, but I think this was the problem. This insight doesn't help us much now, obviously.

I can see that Erik's departure would definitely have led to a energy vacuum that would have dented the forum community. After all, as project leader, Erik single-handedly had his hand(s) in practically every aspect of DROD you could think of and removal of that suddenly would have caused much to collapse.

However, I doubt this was fatal as such. We're all still here and browsing (despite people not posting much, more than 90% of respondents are visiting at least once a week), DROD is still the great game it once was (the RPG is a cool innovation, I must say) and people are still churning creativity out, even if discreetly. In short, (and with all the previous discussion on this topic) it almost seems that the forum is on hold in some way; we're all waiting for something to happen, but it hasn't yet.

I think I am now beginning to understand how the bureaucracy system was meant to work. Erik wanted to delegate the various community tasks to everyone, but it looks like it stalled because there was no apparent task list. People perhaps were not organised very well in terms of what exactly they should be doing, and also perhaps were not given enough tools to do that job. Erik leaving would then have caused further complications as he was technically the HR guy and no-one else appears to have filled that gap.

But we've got to remember that it's not anyone's fault. We're all volunteers here (even Erik as well), and we shouldn't be blaming anyone for what is happening. Without Erik, there would have been no DROD, and the Caravel Team are keeping the whole thing going in the background, even if it doesn't seem like they are doing anything.

Saying that, though, I think I have a possible solution. We need a new project manager and a master task list of some sort. Everyone here who is here for the forum wants to and can do things, but the issue is that no-one knows what they should be doing or if the things they want to do would make a difference.

Edit: And RoboBob has also raised a good point. The first thing to do might be to conduct a census of who is currently working for Caravel and/or on the forum admin team, so we can see if more people might be needed to fill gaps or help out.

Edit2: Let's start getting organised!

____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

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[Last edited by agaricus5 at 03-03-2009 08:06 PM]

Kwerulous
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agaricus5 wrote: ...many appear to be lurkers. What this suggests is that while it may look quiet here, there could be potentially be people browsing discreetly. It also suggests that at least some of us still care enough about what may be going on here, despite there being a low volume of posts.

This is exactly true to me, although it's got to the point now where I rarely log in. I still read and care about what goes on with the forum, but I feel that there is much less for me (personally) to contribute. And even when there are topics of interest to me, I rarely see anything valuable to add.

aztcg7
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 104
Registered: 03-08-2005
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I myself am a lurker here. I've been coming here for something like 2 years, but haven't made too many posts during that time. Basically, I have opinions on what is being discussed, and generally it's already been said by someone else, except more eloquently than I could have. So I guess it's not that I am intimidated, per se, more that I don't have anything useful to add to the conversation.

____________________________
In other news, is a considerably more stylish way to express sarcasm than , because everybody uses and I am /indie/. INDIE, I TELL YOU.

Syntax
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I had a break from DROD and the forums shortly after RPG was released but came back recently as I missed a good evening of DROD playing and chatting to the community.

Originally, I bought RPG as soon as it came out but just couldn't get into it which is obviously just due to personal taste. A lot of the community got passionate with it, and the DROD boards ground to a halt. No more holds released, and a lot of dev focus was being consumed by RPG which is understandable. This community switch made me feel rather sad as my passion is obviously DROD.

All in all, I figured this would be a good time to take a break. I guess I expected the community to rebalance itself and split itself between DROD and RPG diehard fans. Instead I found a global slowdown across the entire forums.

Maybe the DROD community was too small to sustain activity for two quite different games in the same forum.

Stephen4Louise
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 548
Registered: 04-06-2005
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Let's see, it's been almost a year since I've been round these parts. I can't think of any particular reason why I left other than burn out. I haven't played a room of DROD since the day I left, although, I did pop back to try out RPG, but it's just not for me.
I might as well have a look around while I'm here.....
Well, I'm still in the top 10! (Just)
It's actually been 10 months.
I'm still in the HA team.
There are more boards than last time I checked.
There are a lot of familiar people still around.

I might stick around for a while to see what I've been missing.

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
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Stephen4Louise wrote:
Let's see, it's been almost a year since I've been round these parts. I can't think of any particular reason why I left other than burn out. I haven't played a room of DROD since the day I left, although, I did pop back to try out RPG, but it's just not for me.
I might as well have a look around while I'm here.....
Well, I'm still in the top 10! (Just)
It's actually been 10 months.
I'm still in the HA team.
There are more boards than last time I checked.
There are a lot of familiar people still around.

I might stick around for a while to see what I've been missing.

Welcome back!

I don't know if it will be of much help to you, but you could check out this thread for the catch-up initiation I got when I came back last month.

____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

Hoff
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 42
Registered: 08-23-2004
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Someone suggested visibility might be a problem; I think that's absolutely true. I thought I knew of all the commercial and/or good games that ran on Linux and were worth playing but I just kind of stumbled upon DROD one day. I'm still surprised at how unknown it is given how hard it rocks.

AtkinsSJ
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 107
Registered: 12-23-2005
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I'm terrible for lurking. I visit a lot, read through things, but I guess I feel too much like an outsider. I don't play DROD that much, and mostly I don't really have much to contribute to things.

A lot of the time I write out a post, think, then simply don't submit it. I almost did this now.

UrAvgAzn
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 468
Registered: 04-15-2006
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Were there really that many "older-generation" people returning from various absences to slow down the forum enough to cause a disruption worth noticing? I thought there were only a few people who came back. And I'm not sure how that could slow down activity; if anything it would increase it due to the members coming back. Help me to understand that.

I also agree with what robin and Hoff are saying. Usually, someone beats me to the punch in my point of view and I've only got a few things to say. But in a quality-over-quantity forum, some people have second thoughts about their work (myself included, I've held back from posting something many times). We tend to either perfect the said post more, or not post at all. This doesn't exactly limit to posting, it can also apply to putting up a new hold in Architecture. There's always a feeling that something has been done before, and not wanting to double up on a certain concept.

NiroZ has a point too. DROD isn't too widely advertised. In fact I would've mentioned it, but there's another example of being beaten to the punch as I said before He pretty much covered what I wanted to say.

* I would like to add to what CSR had to say, because it really is an important part of this receding activity. Constructive criticism is always appreciated, as one mind cannot cover everything. This is why holds are reviewed in Architecture before being submitted to Holds. This is also the reason why there is now an HA team. Please take the time to drop by the Architecture forum and leave a comment or two for the architect to assess. In essence, testers are just as important as the architects, because one would not be perfect without the other (again this is kind of stating the obvious, but it needs to be stressed).
* Development seems to be a board being neglected by most. Creating artwork in a new DROD style is just like submitting a hold-in-progress to be reviewed by the Architecture board. Also, a new style or mod is appreciated by a lot of people; more than you know. There are lurkers out there that find these styles, and may be inspired to join and create one of their own! It might seem like a far-fetched thing, but inspiration can bring one person a long way. Trust me.
* Creativity. Creativity, creativity, creativity. People find many ways to express their feelings about DROD; whether it be a piece of music by Wesley, or a pumpkin carving by Clayton. They create a sense of tradition for our forums, and they inspire others to venture forth and delve into a new way of expression. Think about something that you're good at, and think about how you can relate it to our forums! It would really boost activity, and maybe bring a few more lurkers out into the light.

Another experience I share with Jeff_Ray, Caravel Forums is one of the first websites (after school related stuff) I check when on my free time. Forum Games are a good way to get the circulation of the forum going, and I understand theres a lot of hype about a new Mafia game (?). Personally, I don't understand Mafia and it'd be cool if someone explained it to me. But that's besides the point I've constantly tried to make fun forum games for this reason. A lot haven't turned out quite as I expected though (i.e. Revival)

The absence of Erik leads me to another point. Where are our administrators? I understand that Neil has been lurking around and visits on a regular basis, but doesn't post. But Erik's departure might not have been completely fatal, because we're all still here. It's not like he took the forums with him when he left, is it? We can still continue without him, and we still have several leaders doing their best for us, like Mike. Until the day when Erik has sorted out his personal life and can once again grace us with his presence, we have to do our best to persevere without him. We are the life of the forums, my good friends.[/motivationalspeech]

Organisation never hurt anybody. It's nice to know who's who, and please take the time to post here.

Now here's my story. I've been here for almost three years, with a few gaps in the middle of that period of time. From the day I began posting here, I found I was greeted by a welcoming community. A questionnaire to help share my interests without posting an "I'm Me" topic? Specific boards to address specific topics and subtopics? A feature showing who's birthday it is in a given day so that they don't feel bad? The contributions of our fellow members? It encouraged and inspired (there's that word again) me to follow in their footsteps, and perhaps create an entire new set of footsteps myself. We want these warm and fuzzy feelings to extend to the newer members today, we don't want them to be greeted by a dead hand. Anyway, over that three year period of time I've made new friends. We've worked together to solve problems and to help one perfect their work. All that help that has been given was received as well. The most touching thing to me is to see how many forum members have grown over the years. Especially the younger ones, adapting to the methods of the older ones here. What was originally a forum to discuss CaravelGames has evolved into much more than that. We've all got our own personal traits that emphasise how important it is for one to discuss their feelings on a subject. And that is why this forum is dear to many people, myself included.

In conclusion, make sure to add your view to the various subjects being discussed on this forum. Nothing match your interest? Post a new topic. Anything for more activity around here. I apologise for rambling on and on, but I was just showing my view of the story. Constructive criticism.



P.S. Thus being said, I'm feeling a little bit guilty about my inactivity here. I think its time I came out of the dark and really rejoin the ranks of forum members

____________________________
"The leaf, still green, must someday fall.
Such grief, such joy, to live at all."
- T.A. Barron, The Lost Years of Merlin

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[Last edited by UrAvgAzn at 03-03-2009 09:45 PM]

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

UrAvgAzn wrote:
Were there really that many "older-generation" people returning from various absences to slow down the forum enough to cause a disruption worth noticing? I thought there were only a few people who came back. And I'm not sure how that could slow down activity; if anything it would increase it due to the members coming back. Help me to understand that.

...

The absence of Erik leads me to another point. Where are our administrators? I understand that Neil has been lurking around and visits on a regular basis, but doesn't post. But Erik's departure might not have been completely fatal, because we're all still here. It's not like he took the forums with him when he left, is it? We can still continue without him, and we still have several leaders doing their best for us, like Mike. Until the day when Erik has sorted out his personal life and can once again grace us with his presence, we have to do our best to persevere without him. We are the life of the forums, my good friends.[/motivationalspeech]

Organisation never hurt anybody. It's nice to know who's who, and please take the time to post here.

Heh. I like how you said the same things I did, but with a slightly different meaning.

The most touching thing to me is to see how many forum members have grown over the years. Especially the younger ones, adapting to the methods of the older ones here. What was originally a forum to discuss CaravelGames has evolved into much more than that. We've all got our own personal traits that emphasise how important it is for one to discuss their feelings on a subject. And that is why this forum is dear to many people, myself included.

I agree with that sentiment. I too went through that development phase, as anyone who can piece together my dropped hints may have guessed. In fact, I did actually say some time ago that this community improved my social skills, and I still stand by that comment.

I also have to admit that I'm not great when it comes to expressing emotion in text (everything I write is always serious to some degree), so I would like to cite all motivational posts like the one above on this forum as an addition to what I have been saying. I couldn't have said it better myself, you see.

In conclusion, make sure to add your view to the various subjects being discussed on this forum. Nothing match your interest? Post a new topic. Anything for more activity around here. I apologise for rambling on and on, but I was just showing my view of the story. Constructive criticism.

The only caveat to that is that some members have been abusing various aspects of this and have unfortunately made everyone else somewhat sensitized to it.

The "I actively dislike a number of people or things that happen here" option is currently in 5th place tie, which suggests two things: Some people are doing things that are upsetting other people, and said upset people may potentially be overreacting to these things. Neither are desirable.

From looking at past threads, I think we collectively need to be both a little more discreet with dealing with certain infractions (e.g. necrobumping, trolling) and tone down some of the intentional snarkiness that I have seen floating around. We should be, as Jeremy says, trying to help people improve, not trying to make them feel awful about it.

____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

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[Last edited by agaricus5 at 03-03-2009 10:24 PM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4756
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Let's see. I've recently come back from my second year-long absence -- I left, rejoined and then left again. I'd lost interest in DROD, then one day I thought "Hmm, why not see how the forum's ticking along for old times' sake?" and found, to my surprise, this awesome new game called DROD:RPG. I don't post much these days -- except in some Forum Games threads -- but that's because there isn't much RPG-related activity and I just don't see myself getting back into the main DROD series again. Maybe one day in the future when I'm settled in a career path and don't have to feel guilty about playing games being a waste of valuable time. Maybe.

(Dammit, I'm an intelligent person and I hate the fact that a puzzle game of all things should be giving me the "I'll-never-be-any-good-at-this" reaction I normally associate with things like ball sports. But that's a side issue and I really don't want to waylay the thread.)

I do feel the forum as a whole has quietened down and is less chatty compared with what I remember. I don't know whether people do more of their chat on CaravelNet these days or what... I don't know. I guess I just feel that as an outsider, and more than that, someone who's made himself an outsider, it's not my place to rejuvenate the forum and I'm too shy to try. I guess part of it is because I know I've made mistakes, said the wrong thing, reacted childishly and aggressively when people have upset me, and I don't know to what extent other people still think the worse of me because of that. Maybe not at all -- but I don't know because I don't know how to find out.

Anyway, I'm not going to leave again, and I'll still be working on my DROD:RPG holds, so I'll be here if anyone wants to talk to me or if any discussions come up I feel I can contribute to.

____________________________
50th Skywatcher

Dischorran
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3414
Registered: 09-10-2005
IP: Logged

Allow me to regress to my lurker state as of a year-plus ago. I come to the board to get hints, see if any new holds are posted, and maybe (maybe!) idly look in on the occasional discussion. That's about it; it's not as if I come for the polls in General.

This is a game forum - people come here for game content, and H&S, Holds, and maybe Architecture are the face of the board. If there's not much activity in those places, especially Holds, is there any reason in particular to treat this as anything other than a download repository? For that matter, since DROD is neither multiplayer nor randomly generated, it's entirely dependent on new content to keep the game fresh; without that, there isn't that much of a reason for the forum to exist in the first place. If the game itself isn't seeing new content, why shouldn't people drift off and maybe come back occasionally when the latest Illumination announces an SmS? What else could the forum possibly offer that you can't find elsewhere?

My thesis, then, is that if we want to see more activity on the forum, the Holds board is the place to start. Want to see holds? Make people *want* to build holds. Give feedback - a strong response to my first hold got the forum a full-fledged member, and a grand total of three posts about my second hold (one of which was mine!) guaranteed an end to my attempts at large-scale architecture. Don't pretend that a hold is good when it's not, but if it sinks into the ether unnoticed, well, the market has spoken. If there's interest in new holds, express it. If there isn't, the dwindling forum that's been noted here is right and proper - share IM handles with the people you like here, and let it find its natural identity as a minor game support board. This certainly shouldn't be taken as a "put in X amount of work or take a hike" argument, though, since nobody not paid by Caravel has any obligations here; it's just what it takes to keep the holds coming.

For that matter, take a shot at a hold yourself, and stick with 4-8 rooms instead of trying to remake The Goblin; if people actually give feedback in Holds and Architecture, a small hold is worth the time. Really, if a hold is only a few rooms, I'd consider even a 3 for fun to be worth the time it takes to play it, so there's not even that much penalty for trying.

And, of course, people need a frakkin' reason to make RPG holds in the first place. My lurker self isn't rooting around in Architecture for good holds among the half-finished ones, my architect self sees no reason to do more RPG architecture until Caravel decides to support it, and neither of us is paying much attention to it any more as a result. Sorry.

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UrAvgAzn
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 468
Registered: 04-15-2006
IP: Logged

agaricus5 wrote:
From looking at past threads, I think we collectively need to be both a little more discreet with dealing with certain infractions (e.g. necrobumping, trolling) and tone down some of the intentional snarkiness that I have seen floating around. We should be, as Jeremy says, trying to help people improve, not trying to make them feel awful about it.

I agree. And to add onto what you said:

* What some of our older members would see as a sarcastic remark, a newer member could take seriously and could be offended. We need to abstain from messing with a newer member like that, as it could damage their self-esteem and cause some of the fear of posting their thoughts again that we've been discussing.
* Further measures should be taken to welcome new members here. We've got a welcome thread, but I don't think that's adequate enough. New members should be brought to a page that links to the Questionnaire, Erik's welcome thread, the FAQ, and other things that a new member would find useful. Certain activities could be held to let a new member show what they're like, and help senior members assess the new ones' personalities. I can't think of many more ideas right now, but that's why we're a community! One person fills in where another leaves off.
* An instant message chat can do wonders. It's nice to be answered immediately for those who need answers.. immediately. I know there's a chat option available to CaravelNet members, but what about we forumers who don't have it? We're left out in the dark. Now, I know the argument on how you should buy it to support our favorite company, but there are interfering factors in most of our lives. If it were my choice, I'd support CaravelGames in any way that I could. Unfortunately, I'm underage and my parents are very wary about buying things online. We've tried IRC chats in the past, and some have gone quite well. But they've died out; and I think it was because they were unofficial. There should be a chat feature on the forums, for we younger folk who prefer the faster responses. Just an idea though, remember; Constructive criticism!
* More official moderators, who people could go to for sound advice. They should also have a title proclaiming their status, so one would know that there's someone there to go to. Sometimes problems are solved by a simple conversation with a senior figure. It's nice to know that there's someone who you could go to, and depend on. After all, a leader's word is law to a world full of followers.

Nuntar wrote:
"Hmm, why not see how the forum's ticking along for old times' sake?"

I liked the way you phrased that. It's nice to know that a community like ours can share in some "old times". Nice sense of camaraderie, if that's not too strange of me to say.

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"The leaf, still green, must someday fall.
Such grief, such joy, to live at all."
- T.A. Barron, The Lost Years of Merlin

NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1302
Registered: 02-12-2006
IP: Logged

Dischorran wrote:
My thesis, then, is that if we want to see more activity on the forum, the Holds board is the place to start. Want to see holds? Make people *want* to build holds. Give feedback - a strong response to my first hold got the forum a full-fledged member, and a grand total of three posts about my second hold (one of which was mine!) guaranteed an end to my attempts at large-scale architecture. Don't pretend that a hold is good when it's not, but if it sinks into the ether unnoticed, well, the market has spoken. If there's interest in new holds, express it. If there isn't, the dwindling forum that's been noted here is right and proper - share IM handles with the people you like here, and let it find its natural identity as a minor game support board. This certainly shouldn't be taken as a "put in X amount of work or take a hike" argument, though, since nobody not paid by Caravel has any obligations here; it's just what it takes to keep the holds coming.

My understanding that that the hold board worked kinda like this already.

CuriousShyRabbit
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3170
Registered: 10-14-2006
IP: Logged

Dischorran wrote:
... guaranteed an end to my attempts at large-scale architecture.

NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1302
Registered: 02-12-2006
IP: Logged

Right, well it seems that option: "I am too busy or personal circumstances prevent me from visiting the forums." is is clearly a leading factor, which is no surprise considering that most of the forumites have been around here for a while. But in order to fix this, I suggest we get those hired thugs to go around to peoples houses to make sure that they have enough time. And ketchup on puppies for those who can prove that they don't have a life outside the forum. That should fix things up.

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Dischorran wrote:
This is a game forum - people come here for game content, and H&S, Holds, and maybe Architecture are the face of the board. If there's not much activity in those places, especially Holds, is there any reason in particular to treat this as anything other than a download repository?

Of course. So...

My thesis, then, is that if we want to see more activity on the forum, the Holds board is the place to start. Want to see holds? Make people *want* to build holds. Give feedback - a strong response to my first hold got the forum a full-fledged member, and a grand total of three posts about my second hold (one of which was mine!) guaranteed an end to my attempts at large-scale architecture.

I can understand what you mean; I too had this problem with BD throughout much of its development (whch perpetuated various other issues that just made it worse anyway). Even post completion, feedback was slow to trickle in. Why was this? Probably a combination of difficulty and perhaps poor judgement on my part. Even to this day, I don't really know.

However...

Don't pretend that a hold is good when it's not, but if it sinks into the ether unnoticed, well, the market has spoken. If there's interest in new holds, express it. If there isn't, the dwindling forum that's been noted here is right and proper - share IM handles with the people you like here, and let it find its natural identity as a minor game support board. This certainly shouldn't be taken as a "put in X amount of work or take a hike" argument, though, since nobody not paid by Caravel has any obligations here; it's just what it takes to keep the holds coming.

For that matter, take a shot at a hold yourself, and stick with 4-8 rooms instead of trying to remake The Goblin; if people actually give feedback in Holds and Architecture, a small hold is worth the time. Really, if a hold is only a few rooms, I'd consider even a 3 for fun to be worth the time it takes to play it, so there's not even that much penalty for trying.

I can sense your frustration. After all, you put in the effort; why is there no response? And art, in most of its forms, is meant to be appreciated by others.

However, in some way, taking it too seriously might be a mistake; do you base the value of your efforts solely on what other people think about them? Do you consider your work wasted simply because no-one says anything?

I'm not really in a position to say anything about your circumstances, since I don't really know what happened, but I found the same was true with my DROD Scores, for example. Weeks had been spent composing merely a total of 1 hour of music, and I didn't get much response to it either. I originally thought my music was worthless; no-one liked it, why should I? In the end, though, I had it all wrong; my music was created to make people happy, and I like my music. At the very least, it means it fulfills its task and brings enjoyment to one person - me. But you know, if I can like it, then chances are, someone else will; that does apparently seem to be the case, but even then, there was still a two year delay to get the response.

The same is true of holds. I made the mistake of building BD originally with the ulterior motive of gaining recognition for it. What I should have done was make it simply for the reason that it would be fun to play. If you don't enjoy your own creation, what's the chance that someone else will? If you put the opinions of others far above your own when it comes to your creative work, will you truly be satisfied?

I don't think giving up architecture simply because no-one appears interested is a good thing. I asked for testers for Golbar's Caves and got 4, but only one person actually completed the 20 or so puzzle rooms due to difficuty (this person was, in fact, CSR). If I were to stop now simply because of that, you'd lose another potential hold, which would then make the problem worse, right?

However, this does raise a good issue about the lack of tester supply. Why are people looking, but not saying anything? Why do hardcore DROD players (apparently, there are at least 8) apparently not want to test our new holds? Is it competition between architects? Do people feel incomplete holds are not worth playing because there are no highscores? Is it that people don't have the time? Is it that people don't feel their time is worth spending to help others?

I don't know the answers to these questions, but I don't believe that the best we can do is just walk away. Clearly, some people like to build, and some like to play. We just have to encourage the two to coincide more.

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Resident Medic/Mycologist

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[Last edited by agaricus5 at 03-04-2009 02:53 AM]

zwetschenwasser
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 200
Registered: 05-22-2007
IP: Logged

!!! Stephen4Louise is back! I don't need a replacement missioneer! Yay!!!

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Currently working on GaTEB and KDD (never finished the silly thing).

Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1645
Registered: 12-12-2004
IP: Logged

RoboBob3000 wrote:
Axe the bureaucracy. This is by far the biggest infraction. It's good in theory, but we need to implement it on a smaller scale and delete all of those unused boards. Maybe promoting some new people to administrative positions could help jump start things - our older admins seem to be feeling the burnout too.

UrAvgAzn wrote:
* What some of our older members would see as a sarcastic remark, a newer member could take seriously and could be offended. We need to abstain from messing with a newer member like that, as it could damage their self-esteem and cause some of the fear of posting their thoughts again that we've been discussing.

I....what? Did I really just read that.

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[Last edited by Banjooie at 03-04-2009 08:40 AM]