The_Red_Hawk
Level: Smitemaster
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File: Lightning.hold (15.8 KB)
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A one-level hold based around speed potions, with twelve puzzle rooms. (The final version can now be found on the Holds board).

Yes, this hold is completely possible (as I have played through it in its entirety in-game - if you don’t believe me, demos and/or solutions are available on request ), and it is also tar-free. There is one horde room (1N) and one room which I thought might be considered trial-and-error (1N1E), but in the first case the puzzle is completely strategic (I’m actually especially proud of that room) and in the second case I added a scroll to give you the most important “leap of insight” which you need.

I had actually hoped for the hold to be harder, but I suppose it will be good for now. (1S1E is the most prominent example of this, where I had originally had only five Aumtlich, no Fegundo, and several mirrors as well..which I felt (during testing) gave the perfect difficulty level until I realized I hadn’t been using the speed potion. (This also means that I’m most concerned about trivial solutions, i.e. if any room seems somewhat easier than the others - or if what you did to solve a room may seem to not be the intended solution).

Ah well...enjoy!

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

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[Last edited by The_Red_Hawk at 01-07-2009 11:00 PM]

Hikari
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 438
Registered: 01-28-2006
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.....wow, I had no idea speed potions could do so much.

1N1W: Took me a few tries to get started here... I found the beginning of the room to be far more difficult than once I got out to where there were more goblins, oddly enough. The first time that rattler hit the pressure switch and let all the other goblins out was a bit of a surprise, though... Pleasant level of difficulty, and I think it's pretty obvious just from the room layout that there's no such thing as a trivial solution *here*.

1S1W: Two entry points... interesting. First attempt at the room went horribly awry when I got trapped behind a huge stream of roaches until the briars had eaten the entire lower half of the room. Needless to say, not a successful run. Subsequent runs have convinced me that the E entrance seems to be impossible to finish the room via, so I began going at it from the W entrance, with slightly more luck though still not managing to get into the passage to the brain with anything resembling speed. Or at all, really.

Upon noticing that there is, in fact, a speed potion in the middle, my strategy switched to going after that... at which point it became rapidly clear to me that this room is all about managing to get something to block the path to the brain, *after* getting in there. Unfortunately, everything I've tried after figuring that out just plain hasn't worked. The difficulty of this room seems to be way way way above what 1N1W was. If that was intentional, then fine... if it was unintentional, then I think a redesign might be in order. In any case, I'm giving up on this one.

2W: An interesting room, took a little bit of doing to manage it. My first instinct was to go north from the entrance and try killing the nests up there. Quickly proven to be the wrong idea, as I rapidly found myself in a situation where I was killing less skippers than were spawned. The obvious solution to that was to start out by killing as many nests as I could at the start, leading to a micro-horde-management puzzle at the south end of the room. Once that was cleared, the rest of the room became less difficult, though I would not go so far as to call it trivial.

1N2W: I can see that I'm supposed to kill the adders before anything else besides getting Beethro safe. I can't quite see how to manage it, as I always seem to either get Beethro killed or get a mimic killed. Poked at it for about 15 minutes with no luck, gave up, ran into a backtracking issue upon attempting to go back and try other rooms. I'm not *entirely* sure how to fix that, beyond maybe putting a platform on one of the spaces on either side of the green door in 2W, with a force arrow preventing one from stepping on it if they aren't standing on the green door?

Of course, as soon as I was done typing that, I gave it one more shot and managed to solve that part of the room. That led to a discovery that if I want to solve the room, I seem to need to clean out the pond at the bottom with all the platforms and skipper nests... during which time I have to let the NW nests and the roachqueens in the north spawn enough that I'm eventually going to be forced to sacrifice my fegundoes and clone potion if I want to survive. Also, I can't for the life of me figure out how one is supposed to reach the speed potion. I have a suspicion that doing so will result in my being unable to solve the room, so I'm stuck again. As with 1S1W, I'm going to leave this for later on.

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Looking at the other rooms I have access to, I suspect that my next action with this hold is going to be to set it aside for a bit and do something else, but I'll certainly come back and try to poke at a few more rooms later. I enjoyed Deep Hold, but this one's certainly seeming an order of magnitude more difficult, and seems to be beyond my ability to solve without multiple hints, which I'm hesitant to really make a lot of use of at this point. I do see some very creative use of elements in here, it's just a bit harder than I can manage right now.

____________________________
Caravel Official Holds Progress:

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[Last edited by Hikari at 07-31-2008 08:44 AM]

The_Red_Hawk
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 783
Registered: 09-02-2003
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Thank you for the feedback.

(I’ll start with 1S1W. I’ll also add a few things in secret tags, even though you said you didn’t want hints).

1S1W: ...Upon noticing that there is, in fact, a speed potion in the middle, my strategy switched to going after that... at which point it became rapidly clear to me that this room is all about managing to get something to block the path to the brain, *after* getting in there. Unfortunately, everything I've tried after figuring that out just plain hasn't worked.

CuriousShyRabbit
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3170
Registered: 10-14-2006
IP: Logged

I've played a bit of this hold too. Even though speed potions are supposed to make Beethro move faster, these are some of the longest demos I've created in a long time.

Rooms I've solved:
2W - I'd classify this as a horde room. I killed a lot of waterskippers, then a lot of roaches, then the brain.
1N1W - Also a horde room for me. I killed a lot of goblins, then snakes, then a lot of roaches. Yes, I did use the safe spot in the SW corner.
1S1W - The meat of this puzzle is briar timing. I had to pick the right time to step on the pressure plate with the south force arrow such that the northern briar killed the last monster before the southern briar killed me. It seems the purpose of the speed potion was mainly to allow me to run past the southern briar before it blocked my way. What was the purpose of the aumtlich in this room?
1N2W - Yikes! This was a long room. I first cleaned out the waterskippers in the south, then concentrated on getting the fegundos and clone out. I did not see what the extra mimics and snakes added to the room, and I'm not sure whether the aumtlich made the room more challenging, or just more annoying. My solution did not use the orb in the northwest corner.
1N - I killed a lot of roaches in here. Definitely needed the speed potions. Clone did west side, Beethro did east side. What was the purpose of the aumtlich? I just let them out and killed them. Also, I never used the orbs in the southeast corner.
1N1E - Nice fegundo maze. I didn't find it random at all. Speed potion allowed 90-degree turns for the fegundos.
1S1E - Unintended solution. I used the first mimic to let the fegundo out, killed everything in reach, used the secong mimic to let the last 5 aumtlich out, killed them with the fegundo too, and left.
2E - I have the feeling I did this room wrong too, as the two main pieces seem disconnected. It's possible to deal with the eastern pressure plates and the northwestern roach either before or after the 10 rattlesnakes in the northeast. The five chambers in the southwest look big enough for rattlesnakes, but I just filled them up with roaches.

Rooms I haven't solved:
1N3W - This looks like an interesting idea - figure out which chambers can only be entered when hasted, and which can be entered at normal speed. It's also a maze with pressure plates, which I'm not good at.
2N - I haven't figured out how to get all 6 mirrors across the pressure plate without letting the lone roach to the west get trapped. Edit: I see that 3 mirrors and two rattlers are probably the intended solution, which still looks pretty tricky.
2N1E - I have no problem with the wratihwings and giant. Finishing this room by creating a dead end for the serpent seems pretty much luck to me. I got tired of trying.
1N2E - I see that I can only finish this room if I drive the roach queens all the way to the serpents at the end. Maybe some other day...

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[Last edited by CuriousShyRabbit at 08-03-2008 11:01 AM]

The_Red_Hawk
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 783
Registered: 09-02-2003
IP: Logged

2W - I'd classify this as a horde room. I killed a lot of waterskippers, then a lot of roaches, then the brain.

1N1W - Also a horde room for me. I killed a lot of goblins, then snakes, then a lot of roaches. Yes, I did use the safe spot in the SW corner.

Well, the important question would be...were there too many?

In the first case, the roach chambers can certainly be made smaller (so less buildup of roaches is possible) and some roach queens (probably most) can be removed. They’re not really part of the “challenge” of the puzzle, apart from perhaps getting to the northern chamber on the west side. The purpose of the queen areas are basically those mentioned in my last post.

In the second case, the snakes and roaches are really meant to be “distractors” to make you fight different monsters as you kill off the goblins - the roaches in particular force you back, since you can’t stand your ground with the goblins around. Come to think of it, though, the queens aren’t necessary - I’ll just add a few sets of five roaches timed to be released with the goblins (two sets with the first group, four with the second). (That means the force arrow tokens won’t be needed either). I now have quite a bit of space left over though - maybe I’ll do something with that later, maybe not.

I’m still trying to think of how to remove the ability to stay in a corner - just adding a square of wall won’t work (you can still kill the goblins, albeit with a bit more difficulty). I did add them though, for now at least (and I also removed a safe spot in the southeast, along the wall just northeast of where the rattlesnakes are).

I just tried the room again and can confirm that the room (in the new configuration, at least) is indeed possible without using the corners - or the five-square-wide passage, for that matter. Now if only I could enforce that - I would actually find that much more desirable than use of the five-square-wide passage. (Perhaps I could use the rest of the room to create a section which requires the ability to use this, but it might not add much to the puzzle).

1S1W - The meat of this puzzle is briar timing. I had to pick the right time to step on the pressure plate with the south force arrow such that the northern briar killed the last monster before the southern briar killed me. It seems the purpose of the speed potion was mainly to allow me to run past the southern briar before it blocked my way. What was the purpose of the aumtlich in this room?

Mainly to cause trouble and make you kill them; in my intended solution, you have to kill all six before going for the brain - you would kill the western three first and subsequently have to deal with at least one spawn of roaches from the east (by which point the Aumtlich there would have had time to reach you).

Yes, the speed potion ended up not playing too large of a part in this room, unfortunately. I suppose I could change that, but that would probably require redoing the entire room...somehow, I still feel that the potion is the “focus” of the room though, if only because it’s in the center. (Certainly its presence opens up more possibilities that the player has to consider before finding the right solution).

1N2W - Yikes! This was a long room. I first cleaned out the waterskippers in the south, then concentrated on getting the fegundos and clone out. I did not see what the extra mimics and snakes added to the room, and I'm not sure whether the aumtlich made the room more challenging, or just more annoying. My solution did not use the orb in the northwest corner.

Well, the first purpose of the extra mimics/snakes was to make the beginning a bit more difficult as you keep the mimics (and Beethro) alive. Subsequently,



The aumtlich don’t really hinder you since the walls only let their beams shoot diagonally, but then you do have to remember to step diagonally across their beams. Roaches or queens or golems would work just as well for making the player open those doors, so they’re not really a key part of the puzzle. (I’ll leave them in for now and see what other people say).

1N - I killed a lot of roaches in here. Definitely needed the speed potions. Clone did west side, Beethro did east side. What was the purpose of the aumtlich? I just let them out and killed them. Also, I never used the orbs in the southeast corner.

Ouch...yeah, you bypassed the puzzle. You’re supposed to have to



Of course, I now see that you can just hit the southern orb first and let the brain guide the Aumtlich...I’ll add a second door so you can’t do that.

The purpose of the orbs is just to ensure that you need to have the mimic with you in the southeast to block off any possible unintended solutions where you leave the mimic in the center instead of bringing it with you...yet I see that you can just leave by the first entrance. I’ll fix that as well.

1N1E - Nice fegundo maze. I didn't find it random at all. Speed potion allowed 90-degree turns for the fegundos.

I presume there are multiple solutions besides my own, so... did you break any of the crumbly walls? (i.e. did the “staggering” idea add anything to the puzzle? did you have to try any different combinations before you found one that would work?).

Also, how difficult did you find it? I’d like to gauge the difficulty and perhaps adjust it (adding/removing some walls to make it harder/easier) to make sure it’s on par with the other rooms.

Actually, I just played around with it a bit and it became pretty trivial when I realized I could keep the Fegundoes exploding at the outset as I sent them one at a time through the maze. I fixed that by adding a row of pit controlled by force arrows after the crumbly walls (none of those walls played a part in my solution and neither did backtracking...I played the room again and found a new solution in about ten or fifteen minutes, so I don’t believe it’s become overly tedious/trial-and-error from this). (This may make my preceding questions irrelevant if that was what you did).

1S1E - Unintended solution. I used the first mimic to let the fegundo out, killed everything in reach, used the secong mimic to let the last 5 aumtlich out, killed them with the fegundo too, and left.

Fixed (added walls around the Fegundo prison).

2E - I have the feeling I did this room wrong too, as the two main pieces seem disconnected. It's possible to deal with the eastern pressure plates and the northwestern roach either before or after the 10 rattlesnakes in the northeast. The five chambers in the southwest look big enough for rattlesnakes, but I just filled them up with roaches.

Yes indeed...I actually took a couple of precautions against using roaches (hence the double pressure plates) but they must not have been enough. The intended solution is quite specific: (spoiler)



So far, the changes are essentially all a reconfiguration of the room to prevent the manipulation of roaches into the chambers (except for the case at the beginning). The inventory is as follows:

- moved the speed potion several squares west and added walls so roaches cannot be manipulated onto the pressure plates (but rattlesnakes can, since they will have to keep going once in the passage - a roach does not have to)
- moved the five gates controlling the mimic potions to the clone potion instead (Beethro still has to open them), moved the southwest rattlesnake chambers down (putting the mimic potions to the west of them), added force arrows to the clone potion, and moved the southern queens up
- added doors to the southwest chambers, controlled by the southwest pressure plate, that will prevent roaches from getting in until Beethro is north of them (by which point it is too late)
- moved the wall between the western two seep passages a square to the north (not really necessary, but a bit of insurance to make it harder to get roaches into those chambers - it should be impossible to get enough to cover both pressure plates)
- changed the gates in front of the orb so you cannot open some of them with the snakes then use the roaches to fill the rest (I also added force arrows to make this a one-way passage to add further buffering - the orb is still relevant though, since the snakes have to come through too)
-rotated a bunch of force arrows so that they wouldn’t let Beethro (or roaches) go the incorrect direction when rotated twice
- made the pressure plates in the southwest chambers close the doors so that Beethro can’t go into any of them (while the orb in the east will reopen the doors to let the rattlesnakes out)

I also realized that the green door’s positioning gives the player a bit of leeway in not needing to close the gate on that one rattlesnake - a very small thing, but I’ll get rid of the bottom right square of the green door and change it into wall (the other one won’t allow anything since the yellow door will be closed).

1N3W - This looks like an interesting idea - figure out which chambers can only be entered when hasted, and which can be entered at normal speed. It's also a maze with pressure plates, which I'm not good at.

The pressure plates are actually mainly to set your path and to cut out unintended solutions; there’s



Also,



I designed this room with the idea that it would be easiest to solve with pencil and paper (though they’re certainly not required) - more specifically, that the easiest way to work towards solving it would be to



(I think I’ll add a scroll giving a hint to this effect) and you should find that (spoiler, perhaps)



and once you figure out the order of these (which should be fairly simple at this point), the puzzle becomes a much more straightforward one (though there are still a few things you need to figure out, naturally ).

(I also just decided to add another piece of insurance against trivial solutions by adding a monster - an evil eye looking into a wall - on the southwest island in place of the orb, to ensure that any unintended solutions which involve not visiting that island will be cut out).

(I also found a second (minor) unintended solution when I remembered that an adder can eat rock piles - you’re meant to have to have the golems alive - so I changed one of the open doors to oremites (that particular door was not affected by anything related to the puzzle).

2N1E - I have no problem with the wratihwings and giant. Finishing this room by creating a dead end for the serpent seems pretty much luck to me. I got tired of trying.

I had actually found the main part of the puzzle to be considerably difficult (a couple of hours to get everything right) even after I had finished tweaking the room...I had also felt that killing the serpent was more a puzzle of timing, i.e. counting how many squares the briar had left to mature and then making the serpent go up to it on exactly the right move.

I did, however, move the checkpoint a square closer towards the center (where it is more likely to be usable) and added two more towards the right, both of which are usable at at least two points in the puzzle (including one point when you are close to finishing off the wraithwings and the serpent is about to get free, and another which is more likely to be used several moves later).


(I’ll leave putting up the next version again, until I finish off the adjustments to 1S1W, 1N1W, and 1N2W...and, of course, thank you for the feedback. )

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

CuriousShyRabbit
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3170
Registered: 10-14-2006
IP: Logged

The_Red_Hawk wrote:
Well, the important question would be...were there too many?

Possibly. Is your goal in this hold to
(1) Confront the player with a wide variety of situations that would be impossible without the use of speed potions, or to
(2) Maximize the number of moves the player will need to complete each room.
I think you were going mainly for the first one, and you have indeed got an interesting variety of rooms. Definitely no filler here. This is a big improvement over your earlier work, Deep Hold, where the effect of your great rooms was diminished by the tedium of slogging through the not-so-great filler rooms. However there are several rooms in this hold that cross the borderline from (1) to (2).
2W - The roaches didn't add much to the puzzle for me, as I got rid of all the skippers first.
1N1W - The roaches didn't add much to this puzzle either. The safe place in the southwest corner is west of the doors that let the roaches out, so I waited to deal with most of them until after I'd got rid of all the goblins.
1N - Wait, you wanted me to take all 6 mirrors across? What would I have to do taking 6 mirrors across that I wouldn't already be doing taking, say, 2 or 3 mirrors across?
2E - Again, why 5 rattlers that need to be moved in and out of boxes, and not say, 2 or 3 rattlers?

(1N1E) Actually, I just played around with it a bit and it became pretty trivial when I realized I could keep the Fegundoes exploding at the outset as I sent them one at a time through the maze.

Yeah, that's what I did. It was indeed pretty easy.

(2E)

Click here to view the secret text

×-get the speed potion
- for each rattlesnake, let it out, go in and hit the orb, and get it back in without shortening it (using roaches to hold the other rattlesnakes in as you do so)

Nah, you don't have to do that. It works to shorten each by one, and then stuff a roach in with it.

2N1E - I've completed this room now, as by chance the serpent happened to find a dead end.

1N2E - I've completed this room as well. Manipulating the two queens together definitely requires a speed potion. A very demanding room. The checkpoints were very handy.

2N - Still working on this room, and haven't yet managed to get 3 mirrors and 2 rattlers across the pressure plate without trapping the western roach.

The_Red_Hawk
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 783
Registered: 09-02-2003
IP: Logged

Is your goal in this hold to
(1) Confront the player with a wide variety of situations that would be impossible without the use of speed potions, or to
(2) Maximize the number of moves the player will need to complete each room.

I deny all knowledge of option 2 except in my subconscious.

But seriously, I do not equate length with difficulty. I’ll also mention that I have never (believe it or not!) deliberately increased a room’s length except as a side effect of changes which were made for other purposes...and if I was trying to maximize moves I would have replaced 2N1E and a couple of the other rooms as well.

(Also, if you don’t mind, I’d like to ask that you don’t make comparisons between Lightning and Deep Hold, as I’d rather not relate the two).

2W - The roaches didn't add much to the puzzle for me, as I got rid of all the skippers first.

Alrighty...I’ll see what I can do to change things around.

1N1W - The roaches didn't add much to this puzzle either. The safe place in the southwest corner is west of the doors that let the roaches out, so I waited to deal with most of them until after I'd got rid of all the goblins.

Yeah, I think I’ve fixed this (as mentioned above). There’s no longer any buildup of roaches you have to deal with later, and you should have to deal with at least five of the six groups [of roaches] along with the goblins.

I’ve also now removed the safe spots (I hope) by adding 3 squares of wall to each corner, though I think the southwest can still be used as a safe spot in the right circumstances. I then took an extra precaution and added two rattlers to the first wave (since it’s incredibly easy to outrun them, the rattlers are only really dangerous if you’re not moving around enough - and they can also be used to shield Beethro from the goblins and roaches) and lengthened all of them to four squares. (I also changed the serpent to a four-square rattler, in order to keep with the theme).

1N - Wait, you wanted me to take all 6 mirrors across? What would I have to do taking 6 mirrors across that I wouldn't already be doing taking, say, 2 or 3 mirrors across?

In this case, I believe that the extra mirrors do indeed add to the puzzle; with just 2 or 3, Beethro and the mimic can just do a single run from bottom to top and bring all the mirrors with them. This way, he has to either



or



This way, efficiency must be used in killing the roaches (or you won’t be able to do anything between spawns). I also found



There’s also the fact that more mirrors add manipulation challenge at the top (not stabbing any mirrors or pushing them into the pits and then getting them over to the right - in a configuration which will later allow you to strike the orb and also get yourself and all of them out - while also fighting the roaches).

(There’s also a roach buildup in the center at this point, but that’s an unintended side effect, and the speed potion and mimic let you kill four roaches per turn if you configure yourself right when you get back out, so I don’t think it should be too bad. I thought of adding invisibility potions as Beethro did the eastern side, but they would only save one or two spawns - since most of the buildup occurs before the point where the invisibility potions would be - and I would have to reconfigure the entire eastern side).

2E - Again, why 5 rattlers that need to be moved in and out of boxes, and not say, 2 or 3 rattlers?

My intention was to make sure that Beethro couldn’t just let them all out at once - with five, it’s almost certain that at least one will get trapped somewhere.

That being said, I think I might see a way - actually, a fairly easy one - to reduce the number while keeping the impossibility of having all serpents get out at once. I’ll try this out too.

(Actually, though, I’d like to make a side note that multiples can indeed increase difficulty - if a player has to handle all of them at once, if the conditions change as the player does subsequent repetitions, and it also diminishes the chance that a player can solve the room by trial-and-error (solving the multiples gets tedious far more quickly for someone doing that rather than actually figuring things out). Another reason is to enforce an intended solution, as seen here).

(2E)

Click here to view the secret text

×-get the speed potion
- for each rattlesnake, let it out, go in and hit the orb, and get it back in without shortening it (using roaches to hold the other rattlesnakes in as you do so)

Nah, you don't have to do that. It works to shorten each by one, and then stuff a roach in with it.

I added diagonal openings at the bottom of each of the central chambers so any roach that gets in should hopefully filter out (and added a force arrow array so that roaches from the bottom won’t be able to get through) then also added hot tiles in the chambers for insurance (which will make it harder for someone to get a rattlesnake trapped as well).

2N - Still working on this room, and haven't yet managed to get 3 mirrors and 2 rattlers across the pressure plate without trapping the western roach.

If I may make a suggestion, the method I used to find my original solution (though I'm not sure if this will be helpful) was to




Anyways, I’m hoping that I’ll put up a new version with all the changes by next weekend. The changes I am still looking at are those for 2W, 1N2W, and 2E. And please, keep giving feedback.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

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[Last edited by The_Red_Hawk at 08-08-2008 07:34 PM]

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
IP: Logged

I have started this hold as well.

Solved rooms thus far: 1N, 1N1W, 1N2W, 2W, 1S. The hold balances on the boarder between fun and tedious. So far the fun part has been bigger And I do find it a bit difficult. Not so much in the "Oh, that's clearly impossible way!" but in a "Oh, what a load of monsters!" way. You have to be quite effective all the time, which is why the rooms don't get boring.

Was I supposed to use the mirrors for 1N? I didn't.

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3626
Registered: 10-06-2005
IP: Logged

I've currently solved 1N1W, 2W, and 2E of this level.

I solved 2E in a similar manner to CuriousShyRabbit, only I solved the problem of the rattlesnakes at upper right by



An aesthetic suggestion from me - Since The Entrance, Once West, and Once East are all non-puzzle rooms and entirely aesthetically designed, could you remove the walls in between them and replace them with pits? That way the pits would be continuous between the rooms and the minimap would look neater. Also, in Once West, it's a bit tedious to get from one of the entrances to Once South Once West to the other entrance; I'd like it if you shortened the distance between them somehow so I don't have to walk a winding path.

I'll wait until I solve more rooms and see this updated version before I comment further, but I'll mention that you're doing a great job, this one level is some of your best work so far, and I had fun playing the rooms

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):

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[Last edited by Chaco at 08-14-2008 01:49 AM]

The_Red_Hawk
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 783
Registered: 09-02-2003
IP: Logged

Version Two is now available (it is found on the first post).


In addition to the changes already mentioned,

I prevented the use of the Fegundo to kill the snakes in 1N2W (replaced the western adder with golems, the serpent with another adder that cannot be accessed until the Fegundo for the northern nest kills itself (because the orb which releases the adder can only be hit by the Fegundo), and put squares of door on the other adder chambers which will close when the Fegundoes are released.

I redid 2W; I replaced the queen areas with water and more skipper nests, then replaced all the walls with pits and added WWs. It's now considerably harder (and I therefore removed the scroll in the Entrance). My solution does have an amount of hack and slash when you cull the skippers, but I feel that it goes quite quickly.

2E (in addition to all the changes discussed earlier) has had two of the rattlesnakes removed, and the traps have been replaced with force arrows (with hot tiles so that the traps can't be filled up with roaches). I think it's a bit harder as well, since it's easier for the rattlesnakes to become trapped(and also, you only have one row of clear squares above the central rattlesnake chambers). (On the other hand, the hot tiles on the traps can kill quite a few roaches for you, though I don't think that's too much of a factor).

I also added squares of pit for continuity between the central rooms (as Chaco suggested) (edit: and added a "bypass" between the two entrances in 1W - forgot to mention that), and added a mechanism in 1N2E which prevents the use of the clone to kill any WWs that have gone over the force arrows. (In the end, there's only one room - 2N1E - which is completely unaltered).

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

---

[Last edited by The_Red_Hawk at 08-15-2008 09:08 PM]

Blondbeard
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Some very quick feedback on some changes:

1S1E: felt like an improvment. Now I have to use the mimics.

2N: Meh! Okay change, but I liked the room a bit better before. The randomness of a rattlsnake trying to get you while you dispose of roaches has been increased.

1N2E: The changes didn't interfere with my solution at all (which I suppose is intended).

1N2W: I don't really see the point of the changes here... I haven't re-completed the room yet, though.
Edit: Okay: That was what you did. Please warn the player in a scroll.

Some more feedback will follow soonish (I have played throgh most of the hold now. Think I have two rooms left). It has been a pleasure testing your hold

The 1N1E change feels necesarry, but I'm less sure about the 2W change. In a way the room gets better (harder), but a bit too much hack and slash for me. Parts of the room where funny, but the "cleaning up" part was just tedious.

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 08-16-2008 03:23 PM]

Blondbeard
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About 2E: Nice changes. I start to like the hold more and more. This is a very clever room, and it's also hard to execute.

Oh, and I know that doubleposts are generally frowned upon, but I want you to see my comments. I didn't know if you would check my post for further edits. Hmm... What would you prefer? Edits or new posts?

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 08-16-2008 09:10 PM]

The_Red_Hawk
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1S1E: felt like an improvment. Now I have to use the mimics.

Just to make sure...the intended solution is to



As a precaution, I made the pressure plate that the roach steps on re-close the door the adder came out of, made the central pressure plate one-use only, and (for even more security) added a plate just behind the adder’s force arrow which will close the door.

It then occurred to me that one could stand on the trapdoor and kill the aumtlich from there, so long as the adder had gone ahead of you. It seems like it would be fairly challenging to do, but I’d like to try and see if I can prevent that anyways.

2N: Meh! Okay change, but I liked the room a bit better before. The randomness of a rattlsnake trying to get you while you dispose of roaches has been increased.

I’m not sure what you mean; the only change I made was to add more roaches on the western side on the second section so that you can’t cut through them fast enough to reach a safe spot on the other side.

The idea is to

1N2E: The changes didn't interfere with my solution at all (which I suppose is intended).

Yeah, the problem I saw was that the room could still be solved after driving WWs over the arrows, since they would gravitate to the clone at the end of the room.

Looking at it again, I also realize that everywhere that the WWs would be trapped and unable to reach the clone, they could go towards Beethro instead as he came out of the serpent traps (and catching them is certainly within his capability due to the speed potion); therefore, I have now added walls around this area as well.

And now I realize that my original change doesn’t work, since one can place the clone on the southern branch of the rattlesnake path, kill any WWs, then reopen the door and get the rattlesnake. To that end, I’ve made that final pressure plate one-use only.

1N2W: I don't really see the point of the changes here... I haven't re-completed the room yet, though.
Edit: Okay: That was what you did. Please warn the player in a scroll.

I’m actually not sure what you’re referring to...The (complete, I think) list of changes I had made are:

- squares of door on the three adder chambers so that Fegundoes can’t be used to kill them (including adding the opening of the northern of those doors, to let the mimic out, one of the functions of the northwestern orb)
- replacement of the serpent with an adder, force arrows, cracked orb, and two yellow doors, for the same reason (and also to enforce the use of the mimic)
- resizing of the three chambers (and a bit of tweaking of the walls around the northern chamber) to give more squares of water and make killing the adders a bit more challenging
- addition of two skipper nests to fill in the new squares of water
- addition of walls around the central orbs so that Fegundoes can’t strike them
- replacement of the western adder with rock golems
- changing the orb with the speed potion to a cracked orb just in case there are unintended solutions (I just now made two of the southwestern orbs cracked as well, for the same reason)
- fixing the backtracking issue by adding a force arrow passage near the entrance

(I just added another change, to remove the opening of the two northern doors from the eastern cracked orb, which was a redundant function; I think I meant to have them close, but that will make me have to redo the demo, so I won’t add that unless there are other changes as well).

The further changes I’m considering for this are reducing the number of northern roach queens and also skipper nests (both eastern and western), and possibly replacing the Aumtlich with golems.

Some more feedback will follow soonish (I have played throgh most of the hold now. Think I have two rooms left). It has been a pleasure testing your hold

Thank you; I’m glad you enjoyed it.

I'm less sure about the 2W change. In a way the room gets better (harder), but a bit too much hack and slash for me. Parts of the room where funny, but the "cleaning up" part was just tedious.

Indeed; the problem is that I can’t see any way to reduce the number of skipper nests easily once you’ve killed the first 9 or 10 of them (which is the real puzzle), and reducing the number at the beginning will make the puzzle itself easier. (I actually had a few more nests to start, and I believe it was impossible, so I think I’m at the overall correct number of nests).

Out of curiosity, did you use a similar solution to mine? What I did was

Oh, and I know that doubleposts are generally frowned upon, but I want you to see my comments. I didn't know if you would check my post for further edits. Hmm... What would you prefer? Edits or new posts?

Both are fine, I suppose. I’d lean towards extra posts, I think (though not to excess, of course ) unless the original post had only been done within the last few minutes.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
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IP: Logged

For 1S1E: No. I kill some aumtlichs with my sword on the preasure plate, and half of them with the adder. Otherwise i do as you do. Please keep the room like this. I will probably just like it less if you change it. It isn't trivial to kill aumtlichs with your sword. Just a bit less tedious.

For 2N: I wanted to be able to cut through the roaches fast enough . The change just makes the room a bit more tedious IMO. Not a very bad change, but still... Tastes differ.

In 1N2E I keep one wraithwing alive escaping through the arrow at 13,13. Beethro kills it in the end. But I think the room is fine as it is, and a very good room. Please don't change it

For 1N2W: This change: - squares of door on the three adder chambers so that Fegundoes can’t be used to kill them (including adding the opening of the northern of those doors, to let the mimic out, one of the functions of the northwestern orb)

Walls around the adders would be better. That way nobody thinks you can use the fegundos.

For 2W the answer is no. I headed to the southern chamber, killed a nest, killed all but five wraithwing, killed a couple of nests more, before being forced back. Went below the skippers to the westmost nest, and killed it. Hack and slash, and then killed the final nest in the chamber. Killed the nests in the NE areas, and the rest was cleanup.

Oh, and my final room of the hold is 1N2W. Seems tricky, but I just don't want to do it I don't know why, but looking at the room makes me tired. Either boring trial and error, or boring mappings of what all the doors does, how fast I have to be with respect to the queens, etc. That room makes me wish to quit on the holds. The last room I solved was 2N1E. A nice, solid room. And I really do like the planning, and the demand for strategies in most rooms. Especially in 2N, 2N1E, 1N2E, and most of all in 2E. 1N2W was also quite nice in this regard, but that room is mostly just freaking hard .

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 08-17-2008 10:17 PM]

The_Red_Hawk
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For 1S1E: No. I kill some aumtlichs with my sword on the preasure plate, and half of them with the adder. Otherwise i do as you do. Please keep the room like this. I will probably just like it less if you change it. It isn't trivial to kill aumtlichs with your sword. Just a bit less tedious.

Yup, that’s fine. I had already found that solution during playtesting, and I don’t mind.

For 2N: I wanted to be able to cut through the roaches fast enough . The change just makes the room a bit more tedious IMO. Not a very bad change, but still... Tastes differ.

Well, the abovementioned solution (using the snakes and mirrors) was the original idea behind the room, and I’d like to keep it since it does have puzzle elements. (If I didn’t need it, I’d actually remove all the roaches altogether; I’d just need the rattlers, including the two-square timer rattler, and the western roach). And come to think of it, I just realized that people have probably been bypassing the solution in the first section as well (which does indeed seem to make that section pointless and tedious, just a bit of hack and slash); you’re meant to have to use the same type of solution I want you to use in the second section. (I’ve now fixed this, I hope).

In 1N2E I keep one wraithwing alive escaping through the arrow at 13,13. Beethro kills it in the end. But I think the room is fine as it is, and a very good room. Please don't change it

Sorry (let me explain myself and I hope you’ll understand). If it was just one WW, I probably wouldn’t mind, but as things are now, Beethro can drive any WW he wants over the force arrows (and at any place). At the end, no matter where they went over, all of them can be killed by either Beethro or the clone, making the main puzzle significantly easier at nearly all points on the pathway except perhaps the last section.

For 1N2W: This change: - squares of door on the three adder chambers so that Fegundoes can’t be used to kill them (including adding the opening of the northern of those doors, to let the mimic out, one of the functions of the northwestern orb)

Walls around the adders would be better. That way nobody thinks you can use the fegundos.

Indeed - however, part of the puzzle is



...Please tell me that that’s part of your solution?

(I’ll think about putting the scroll in. Recognizing what you have to do - i.e. use the mimics to kill the adders - is a part of the puzzle just like the actual solving of it).

For 2W the answer is no. I headed to the southern chamber, killed a nest, killed all but five wraithwing, killed a couple of nests more, before being forced back. Went below the skippers to the westmost nest, and killed it. Hack and slash, and then killed the final nest in the chamber. Killed the nests in the NE areas, and the rest was cleanup.

You did the hack and slash four nests earlier than me . Since that would indeed be tedious (tell me if this is the wrong idea), I’ll remove the safe spots in the southern chamber to prevent this solution then?

(I’ll also add a scroll saying “you can clear at least three chambers before you have to stop moving.” I know my previous post didn’t have me fully clearing one of those three, but I found a way to do so and keep to my original solution.)






Finally...

Oh, and my final room of the hold is 1N3W. Seems tricky, but I just don't want to do it I don't know why, but looking at the room makes me tired. Either boring trial and error, or boring mappings of what all the doors does, how fast I have to be with respect to the queens, etc.

I’ll add some more hints here, followed by spoilers. (I know I discussed it earlier, but I was still pretty vague). I do want people to test this room, after all .

(By the way, there’s no timer with relation to the queens at all. If you let all the queen chambers fill up before moving, you could still solve it. Also, I think I've added enough facets to the room such that it would be incredibly difficult to solve with trial-and-error; I don't want it to be solved that way in any case).


When you figure out the required path, think of it as a logic puzzle:

Firstly, you must recognize that



Your next steps would be to



A spoiler, though moderately vague:




Large spoilers (I can’t really think of any more ways to give hints, and again, I do want people to be testing this room):

For the way out (the simpler one),


For the way in,



The final steps to figure out the logic puzzle part of this room are:





To conclude,



The order in which you must undertake these



At the end (just for completion),



Now that you have all of this, the rest becomes a more conventional puzzle (though it’s still quite challenging). It will probably help if you followed and understood each part, but the important part is that you know where and where not to step. (And one final thing...watch out for pressure plates with toggle functions. You may have to step on them twice to keep your path clear).

I hope this room is more approachable now.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

---

[Last edited by The_Red_Hawk at 08-19-2008 04:33 AM]

Blondbeard
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File: L Lightning 1N3W Victory.demo (2.6 KB)
Downloaded 51 times.
License: Public Domain

You are a crazy man! A crazy, crazy man!

Actually I didn't need your spoilers, but the last bit with the adder was just crazy. Especially since you are not speeded all the time, and since the adder in itself doesn't reach sufficiant length to be able to open the doors for long enough to get in and out again. I finally solved it by letting the adder press both of the preasure plates twice.

Check the demo out to see if I did something awfully unintended

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 08-25-2008 03:38 PM]

The_Red_Hawk
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Well, yeah.





I've also changed 1N2W so that there are fewer roach queens and skipper nests, since the extras don't really add to the puzzle. (I still need to know if your solution used the eastern mimic - that's a part of the puzzle I'd really prefer to be included).

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
IP: Logged

Yes, I did use the mimic. I'm still a bit unsure about 1N3W. Basically you can screw up in so many places. And I think the logic of figuring out what to do feels more straightforward to you. The problem is of course the number of doors and conections. There's eleven presure plates and one orb. There's twelve doors. That's a lot of possibilities, and I can guarantie that the first thing that will go through players heads is "Wow! How do I even start?". Writing every conection down would reduce the problem of overlooking the room, but many don't like to do that. My sugestion: Give some hints! Like e.g. "Which doors can't be opened?", and "Timing has nothing to do with this puzzle, you can do everything in your own time", or "The green doors shows where you should exit the room. None of them are a red herring". I can asure you that my solution wasn't easy (in fact it might be harder than yours, since I had to feed the roaches to the adder while unspeeded. I don't really see the point in removing my solution...

Syntax
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Blondbeard wrote:
Yes, I did use the mimic. I'm still a bit unsure about 1N3W. Basically you can screw up in so many places. And I think the logic of figuring out what to do feels more straightforward to you. The problem is of course the number of doors and conections. There's eleven presure plates and one orb. There's twelve doors. That's a lot of possibilities, and I can guarantie that the first thing that will go through players heads is "Wow! How do I even start?". Writing every conection down would reduce the problem of overlooking the room, but many don't like to do that. My sugestion: Give some hints! Like e.g. "Which doors can't be opened?", and "Timing has nothing to do with this puzzle, you can do everything in your own time", or "The green doors shows where you should exit the room. None of them are a red herring". I can asure you that my solution wasn't easy (in fact it might be harder than yours, since I had to feed the roaches to the adder while unspeeded. I don't really see the point in removing my solution...

And... breathe...

Blondbeard
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The_Red_Hawk
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My sugestion: Give some hints! Like e.g. "Which doors can't be opened?", and "Timing has nothing to do with this puzzle, you can do everything in your own time", or "The green doors shows where you should exit the room. None of them are a red herring".

Done.

I can assure you that my solution wasn't easy (in fact it might be harder than yours, since I had to feed the roaches to the adder while unspeeded. I don't really see the point in removing my solution...

There were a few things which made me decide -

- the island with the rattlesnake and four goblins is significantly easier, since you’re on speed potion for it
- you don’t have to be careful with regard to the golems, both when in the eastern section and when you’re on the oremite islands
- I’m enforcing the intended use of the adder in the final room (such that it can only be used once, and so that you have to have the adder at full length and thus it has to eat everything rather than you being able to kill some things with your sword - for example, you could kill all of the roaches before you stepped onto the oremites)
- most importantly, your solution is easier than you think - you just have to wait for the adder and rattlesnake to arrange themselves so you can make a dash for the speed potion at the entrance to the golem island (and the golems won’t follow you as you get away due to their movement patterns), then you can do the rest while speeded.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
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IP: Logged

Believe me: I tried! It is NOT that easy! By the way: What in particular would you like me to test?

---

[Last edited by Blondbeard at 08-26-2008 08:14 PM]

The_Red_Hawk
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Well, no, but the idea was that it's not all that much harder than the fixed version.

I don't really have any particulars to request testing on - just to make sure that everything works well, there are no trivial solutions, and that nothing is tedious (and suggestions to make the rooms harder would work too, especially the ones that are easier)...things like that. One room I'm not sure about is 1N1E, but I think that making it much harder would probably make it trial-and-error. I could perhaps reduce the amount of pit you have to work with on the eastern side, perhaps.

On the trivial solutions...those are probably what I'm most worried about (simply because I've had so many and I can't really be sure whether all of them are gone). In fact, I don't believe that anyone's confirmed that my fixes for some of the rooms actually worked (2E, 1S1W, 1N, no safespots in 1N1W, etc)

Anyways, starting tomorrow I have far less time to spend on here, so Version Three has now been added. It's almost exactly the same as Version Two except for the few small changes already discussed; it will probably be a final version before uploading unless there are more suggestions. I've also made it Anyone Edit.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

The_Red_Hawk
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 783
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IP: Logged

So, I've let the thread drop off the first page (though perhaps I should have made this post sooner than this). I'm still not completely confident in the hold, and I'd still like a bit more testing before I upload it; most of all, I'm very concerned about unintended solutions, especially since I can no longer fix them once this has gone to the Holds board.

In my opinion, the most important rooms for this (the ones that would be most hurt by unintended solutions) are as follows, along with the specific parts of the room that would most hurt them.


1N1W - that there are no safe spots where you can stand and kill the goblins

2N - that there are no safe spots for you to kill the roaches, either in the first or second section (i.e. you have to use the rattlesnakes and the mirrors)

2E - that the rattlesnakes cannot be shortened (such as by using roaches for the pressure plates) until the very end

1N2E - that none of the WWs can be driven over the force arrows with the room still being completable

1N - that there is no solution which does not involve getting the mirrors to freeze the Aumtlich


Any other type of feedback, whether on unintended solutions or anything else, is of course welcome; by asking for emphasis on the five rooms above, I'm not suggesting that the rest are fine as they are. (It's just that those are the ones I'm most concerned about, i.e. where it would be easiest for a trivializing/unintended solution to effectively waste much of my work on the room).

Failing any discovery of said unintended solutions or any further feedback in other areas, I'll let the hold stand a while longer and then submit it. (My level of comfort wouldn't be too high, but I suppose I'd still probably do it). We'll see how things turn out...

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

Blondbeard
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I'll try to take a look at it.

Blondbeard
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I can't see any possible unintended solution for 1N1W, 2E or 1N. Haven't looked yet at the others. 1N seems messy, messy right now.

The_Red_Hawk
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Last call.

(Failing any more replies, I will replace the Anyone Edit version with You and Conquerors and submit in several days).

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

---

[Last edited by The_Red_Hawk at 12-22-2008 04:19 AM]

The_Red_Hawk
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Promoted.


I've made two more changes:

1N3W: added one more hint, and put them on separate scrolls
2N: shortened the serpent timers, as I realized on playing around with the room that they were very lenient. (In fact, I didn't shorten them as far as I could have).


Thank you to all who have tested for me.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

CuriousShyRabbit
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Even after reading all the hints and spoilers on 1N3W, I am still having big problems executing the solution.

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[Last edited by CuriousShyRabbit at 12-30-2008 11:23 AM]

The_Red_Hawk
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CuriousShyRabbit wrote:

Click here to view the secret text

×I could avoid the potion at (12,2) if I used a roach to protect my back from the aumtlich gaze.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....