Mr. Slice
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When I'm on hot tiles, bumping into master walls won't kill me. I'm pretty sure this is either a bug, or secretly intended.

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Chaco
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Mr. Slice wrote:
When I'm on hot tiles, bumping into master walls won't kill me. I'm pretty sure this is either a bug, or secretly intended.

This is consistent with bumping into master walls not making roaches move, or fuses advance, or anything of that sort - bumping into master walls is no longer considered to be a valid turn in 3.1 - it is ignored and the player must make a different move.

So, yeah, it is intended.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 01-23-2008 11:25 PM]

Mr. Slice
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Weird. You'd think that you can treat a master wall just like any other wall. I mean, it is an obstacle that you can't move on, until you have fulfilled the correct requirements.

A normal door is just the same, but if you bump into it, it counts as a valid turn. So why exactly wouldn't it work here?

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Sillyman
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Yeah, bumping into closed Master Walls is treated like trying to leave the room while Room Lock is on. It doesn't take a turn, you hear a chime, and are told the move is not allowed. It does that because doing otherwise would break demos. Master Walls are... odd that way. Besides, bumping into stuff is treated like waiting.

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[Last edited by Sillyman at 01-23-2008 11:32 PM]

halyavin
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Mr. Slice wrote:
A normal door is just the same, but if you bump into it, it counts as a valid turn. So why exactly wouldn't it work here?

I guess that, currently, spider doesn't have enough info to know whether the master door is present or not. So it always thinks that it is not present and game simply doesn't allow you to move on it if it does present.

BTW, that's why a room with master walls shouldn't contains monsters - any demo where master wall do influence on game state will be invalid.

jbluestein
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I wonder if you could make an interesting (?) puzzle by putting a swordless Beethro in a spot with one or more squares of master wall around him...and then forcing him to manipulate a fegundo.

Josh

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coppro
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Any move through a master wall is morphed into a 'Wait' command for any demo.

However, the reason that master walls don't consume a move is to reuse the code used for room locking, which nullifies the move and creates a message.

TFMurphy
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Actually, any move through a Master Wall shouldn't be morphed anymore. If the demo that was recorded was made by a game that moved successfully through a Master Wall, then obviously the Master Wall was down and no conversion is necessary. If the Master Wall was up, the demo could not have made such a move. (Although it could be a demo for an old version of a room, but that's a different problem altogether and not unique to Master Walls)

There are a number of reasons behind Master Walls acting like this. One of the main reasons was that a conversion to a wait was no longer sufficient in demos: bumping an obstacle is much different than waiting. Mirrors could break (well, they could back when they could be placed on Master Walls, but that was changed in the same discussion), Fegundos could turn, scripts checking for Obstacle Bumps would run. And demos are also the principle way in which the undo command is recorded: what breaks demos also breaks the undo command.

Furthermore, being able to "bump" a Master Wall leads to a functionality that is not possible when the Master Wall drops. Imagine a room where swordless Beethro is surrounded by Master Walls and has a Fegundo and a Mimic elsewhere. You would be able to control the Fegundo by bumping the walls without moving the Mimic. This would not be possible if the Master Walls went down, and once the Master Walls are down, it'd be annoying for a player to get them back up if they wanted to try other things.

And finally, being able to view demos where a (different) player has used the passability of a Master Wall can be useful at times. Just because a room can't be highscorable as a result doesn't mean it can't still be interesting. But please note that this has *no* impact on the CaravelNet spider though: the spider can easily invalidate any demo that actually does pass through a Master Wall.

Briareos
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TFMurphy wrote:
And finally, being able to view demos where a (different) player has used the passability of a Master Wall can be useful at times. Just because a room can't be highscorable as a result doesn't mean it can't still be interesting. But please note that this has *no* impact on the CaravelNet spider though: the spider can easily invalidate any demo that actually does pass through a Master Wall.

Shouldn't starting on a master wall still produce a valid demo? In that case you could have a room exit blocked by a single-tile wide master wall that allows you to solve the room much quicker...

(Also - welcome back; at least it looks like you dropped off the Eighth for a bit... )

np: Autechre - Cap.IV (Gantz Graf EP)

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TFMurphy
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It can and does last time I knew - Forbidden Fortress does just that. I'm not sure *exactly* what method the spider uses, but I assume it's a quick and easy "always assume Master Wall is up, even if the demo says we went through". That should mean that starting and waiting on a Master Wall wouldn't affect it, but trying to move in the direction of one would fail.

(Also, thanks - was away on holiday for much of Christmas, and had tons of stuff backlogged to get through when I got back)

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[Last edited by TFMurphy at 01-24-2008 10:05 PM]