Chaco
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Hold removed from Architecture board. Comments preserved in case somebody wants to read them.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 08-28-2007 03:35 AM]

Jason
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In the Ascention by Confrontion level, if you leave 1N straight away into 2N before chaco exits and then immeadiately return, the first chaco npc repeates his script and the 2nd chaco npc runs his role too.

edit: in the egress 1W, if you go to the secret room, the npc doesn't end and keeps repeating.

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[Last edited by Jason at 07-17-2007 08:47 PM]

Chaco
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Fixed. At the same time, two blue sister gates were there that should not have been there, so I'll upload a new version right away. Again, nothing really worth updating over.

I was hoping all the bugs that required an immediate update were already squashed so I could just sit and wait for thorough feedback, but I should have known from my last experience that that's never the case.

EDIT:

The other bug you mentioned in the Egress is also fixed in the attached version.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 07-17-2007 08:49 PM]

Ezlo
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Twice Descended 2s 2e, you can just kill the golems in there chambers. The snake will still get to the roach at the right time most of the time anyway.

Twice Descended 1s 1e, during the cutscene, golem flashes up as Beethro for a second. It looks kind of weird.

Thrice Descended 3w, I didn't drop a single trap door and still solved the room, unintended?

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[Last edited by Ezlo at 07-17-2007 09:32 PM]

Chaco
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Twice Descended 2s 2e, you can just kill the golems in there chambers. The snake will still get to the roach at the right time most of the time anyway.

I'll look into fixing that. The point is meant to be that the serpent should get to the roach at exactly the right time.

Twice Descended 1s 1e, during the cutscene, golem flashes up as Beethro for a second. It looks kind of weird.

Intentional. There's no "Turn into player" command yet, so a Beethro has to show up, turn into monster (which transfers player control over to that entity) and then become a rock golem as soon as it turns into a monster. If you can come up with a better mechanism without this problem, I'd like to see it.

Thrice Descended 3w, I didn't drop a single trap door and still solved the room, unintended?

Intended. There's no red door in the room. The trapdoors are meant mostly to restrict your movement.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 07-17-2007 09:39 PM]

Tim
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Why is there an exit to the south in Once Descended: 4S1E?

Are you going to make a room there?

Edit: If you don't mind I'll look at this hold some time later, I am really too busy lately...

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[Last edited by Tim at 07-18-2007 12:03 AM]

Chaco
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Heh, I forgot about that passage. You'll notice all the other secret rooms (except for the Twice Descended secret room) have access passages. I've mimic-proofed them in such rooms as the Thrice Descended room, however I forgot about the one in Once Descended.

As tempting as it is to put a secret room back there, it would break the symmetry and Quarce South Once East is a secret room already anyway. So I'll mimic-proof the passageway by adding trapdoors in the next update (not immediately posted in the thread)

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[Last edited by Chaco at 07-18-2007 12:23 AM]

jbluestein
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In Quarce Descended: Entrance, the stairs end the hold.

In Quince Descended: 1N1E, I solved the room by:



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jbluestein
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I've played through a lot of this hold, but attacking the final levels is pretty difficult. There are a lot of stairs that end the hold, and the non-linearity of the final levels makes it hard to be sure that I'm handling a room in the right state if I just play it in the editor.

I like what I've seen, which is to say: the first six levels are full of some very good puzzles.

But I don't think I can go any farther until the last levels are playable within the game.

Josh

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Chaco
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In Quince Descended: 1N1E, I solved the room by:

Click here to view the secret text

×
spawning roaches on the pressure plates in the upper and lower left corners. This gave me enough time to escape. Is this the intended solution?

Yep, that's intended. I later found out that it's possible to pass the room by just being incredibly efficient, but that's fine with me for this room.

I've played through a lot of this hold, but attacking the final levels is pretty difficult. There are a lot of stairs that end the hold, and the non-linearity of the final levels makes it hard to be sure that I'm handling a room in the right state if I just play it in the editor.

I don't think I can go any farther until the last levels are playable within the game.

By the last levels (as in, not the first six), you mean the Seventh Level, the Egress, and the Hall of Mastery?

Those levels are somewhat of a pain to playtest, I agree, but I usually get good results by starting to playtest in the entrance room of those levels. There's also a warp room in Twice West of the Surface Entryway that includes stairways to the Seventh Level and the Hall of Mastery (past the master walls) so you can play those two levels in-game.

This hold does make a bit more sense in terms of "all the level is accessible from the start" but it's still a bit non-linear in that you can play new levels as soon as you get to the staircases, but you still need to complete all five levels before you can complete the sixth (and then go to the seventh)

What I'd really like an opinion on is whether I should finish the Seventh Level and include it in the hold, or scrap it, keep the six levels I have currently, and change the plot just a bit.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 07-26-2007 03:13 PM]

Ezlo
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I like the seventh level a lot, I think you should keep it in.

jbluestein
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Chaco wrote:
By the last levels (as in, not the first six), you mean the Seventh Level, the Egress, and the Hall of Mastery?

Yes. Since I can't proceed to the levels past the Sixth Level in-game due to stairs ending the hold, it's hard for me to be sure that I'm seeing subsequent levels as they're intended.

What I'd really like an opinion on is whether I should finish the Seventh Level and include it in the hold, or scrap it, keep the six levels I have currently, and change the plot just a bit.

Well, the first six levels are quite good. I don't have an opinion on the seventh and beyond yet -- I'll give it another shot and try to see if I can come up with a more useful opinion.

Josh

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Bingbing
Level: Goblin
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Chaco, please keep that last level. The puzzles there are really unique and fun.

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Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
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Bingbing wrote:
Chaco, please keep that last level. The puzzles there are really unique and fun.

Alright, Bingbing! You got it!

A new version of Terrakept Resonant has been uploaded. The changes are as follows:

The Seventh Level is now complete. Because I know not everyone appreciates scripting puzzles as much as Bingbing here does, I've included a way to skip the Seventh Level if you want to get to the end of the hold. However, in order to master the hold, you'll need to play Chaco's games.

I made a sign portrait for when Beethro is reading signs. Why? The exact same reason that Beethro now properly descends and ascends staircases when he enters rooms.

Twice Descended: Twice South Twice East will now just laugh at you if you kill the golems in their hallways and don't try to do anything to the snake's path. Now the puzzle has to be solved in order for the serpent to block the roach properly.

Thrice Descended has a few aesthetic changes but not really anything that affects any puzzles.

Quarce Descended: Once South Twice East is a little more difficult.

You no longer have to solve Quince Descended: Once North Once East in order to get to Once East and Once North Twice East.

Hall of Mastery: Once South has been made slightly less trivial.

After exiting by the staircase in the Egress, Beethro actually goes to the surface and on his way before the hold ends.

I believe the hold is complete in the sense that I won't be adding any more rooms to it. However, I'd like it if people would play through the hold and offer some comments on rooms that they think are too unintuitive, too tedious, too trivial because of some solution I missed, or whatever.

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jbluestein
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Hey Chaco --

The stairs in Quarce Descended: The Entrance still end the hold. This makes the hold unplayable outside of the editor (because you can't get to Quince Descended: 1S1E).

Josh

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Chaco
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I went to that room myself to make sure that staircase pointed to Thrice Descended: Twice South, and indeed that staircase does do that on the version on my computer.

Nevertheless, I'll backup my version, download the version currently attached to this thread, import it, and see if the problem exists.

Oh, and one more thing:

Quarce Descended: Once South Once West and Quarce Descended: Once South Once East have been changed so that bombs are no longer on top of arrows. The two rooms still play mostly the same.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 08-15-2007 06:34 PM]

jbluestein
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Chaco wrote:
I went to that room myself to make sure that staircase pointed to Thrice Descended: Twice South, and indeed that staircase does do that on the version on my computer.

There have been a number of cases like that, where it looks good to some but fails for others. I think that the only definitive solution is to delete the staircase and create a new one.

Josh

____________________________
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Chaco
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Surprisingly, after downloading the attachment and importing it, the hold that I'd just uploaded was not exactly the same as the hold on my DROD installation, and in that hold the Quarce Descended stairs were, in fact, pointing to End Hold. I fixed that staircase, then reflected on the problem.

I then checked every single staircase in the hold to make sure it went where it was supposed to, and indeed one other one was broken as well.

I also removed the warp room because the hold really demands that you start at level one if you want to finish it properly.

So, yeah, jbluestein was right. Hopefully the attached version does not contain this problem.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 08-15-2007 06:48 PM]

jbluestein
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The stair problem in Quarce Descended: Entrance has now been fixed. However, there's something else weird going on:

When I take the stairs in Quarce Descended: Entrance up to Thrice Descended: 2S, I get stuck in a cutscene. This is because the blue doors have been raised, and the script that moves Beethro from the stairs to the exit of this room doesn't take this into account. Beethro gets stuck at (17,22) and can't finish the script.

Josh

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Chaco
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That's not weird, that's me not taking the blue anti-doors into account.

I don't remember why the blue sister doors are in there, but I do know they make a long path and it takes a long time to walk that path, and there's no point.

So, I'll get rid of those blue doors and it should work.

EDIT:

And, the attached version should lack any anti-blue doors in Thrice Descended: Twice South.

So, now after going down the stairs in Sence Descended: Twice South, a few cutscenes should then drop you in Ascension by Confrontation.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 08-15-2007 07:44 PM]

jbluestein
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Much better. Should the NW stairs in Sence Descended: 1N end the hold?

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Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
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Yes, they are supposed to end the hold. How did you manage to get to them?

Ideally, what should happen is, after you return from Sence Descended Quarce South, you should come back to just above the eastern staircase in Once North, and then after you leave to go towards either the southern exit or the staircase, a Citizen NPC comes and shuts the doors.

EDIT:

Ah, I see. The other pressure plate opens the door. I'll just go block that off.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 08-15-2007 08:41 PM]

jbluestein
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Chaco wrote:
Yes, they are supposed to end the hold. How did you manage to get to them?

I came up the stairs in the SE after clearing Sence Descended: 4S. I hit the orb at (34, 20) which opened both doors. Then as I was heading towards the NW staircase, a character came out and closed the door to the NW staircase. So I stepped on the pressure plate at (22, 13), which opened the door again, and I went through. Finito.

ABC is pretty cool so far, btw.

Josh

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jbluestein
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OK, so I've conquered this hold (I've got one secret left to beat, on Quarce Descended) and have comments.

Ascension By Confrontation has some very good rooms in it.


2N is an excellent introduction to the level. Not very difficult once you figure out the trick, but not bad.

2N1E seems very easy to me. It's just a queen-herding puzzle and the guy on the pressure plates doesn't really make it any more difficult.

3N1E and associated other room are very good. Figuring out the trick still wasn't too difficult, but executing took a few tries.

2N2E is probably my favorite room on the level, although I'm still frustrated by the vagaries of builder movement. Small issue I noted: If you kill the builder with the bomb, once you solve the room, Chaco speaks all the lines for both himself and the builder, which looks kind of weird.

1N2E -- another well-done room.

2E -- cute trick.

1E -- very good. One of the toughest rooms on the level. Works very well.

1N -- somewhat anticlimactic. I thought there was going to be a race against a timer or something, but it's just a run-of-the-mill smitefest. And fairly easy.

So I think that the idea behind these rooms is very good, and there are several rooms that really work. Some of the rooms are pretty easy, though -- I think you could safely kick up the difficulty a notch without exceeding the difficulty of previous levels.

I also am enjoying the secret rooms. At least one of them had me staring at it for quite a while, saying 'That's impossible!' (a very interesting trapdoor puzzle)

That's all for now. I'd say keep up the good work and I hope you publish this one soon!

Josh

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jbluestein
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A comment on:


Josh

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Chaco
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jbluestein wrote:
A comment on:

Click here to view the secret text

×
Halls of Mastery: 1N1W:

That's fine with me.

I might need to block off the decoy potion with a speed potion, so that if you're going for a highscore on this room you'd need to not use the decoy.

I'm currently in the process of replacing ABC 2N1E and 1N with completely new rooms that play better. Currently the new 2N1E is a lot more awesome than the room that it replaces.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 08-16-2007 06:40 PM]

jbluestein
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OK, I've conquered all of the post-master rooms here as well. I wasn't able to solve 1E without killing poor Diego, though. Gotta consider that one a bit more.

All the post-master rooms were fun. I liked 1W a lot.

Josh

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jbluestein
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OK, I call 'uncle' on that last room:



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"Rings and knots of joy and grief, all interlaced and locking." --William Buck

Chaco
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How about putting a mirror on the safe spot and getting the Stalwart out of the way?

You just don't let him trigger the pressure plate, is all

EDIT:

Actually, the criteria for the challenge script isn't quite right, so if the top stalwart is still complaining after you've done the challenge, don't worry about it.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 08-16-2007 08:29 PM]

jbluestein
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Chaco wrote:
How about putting a mirror on the safe spot and getting the Stalwart out of the way?

You just don't let him trigger the pressure plate, is all

Ah! That works.

Thanks!
Josh

____________________________
"Rings and knots of joy and grief, all interlaced and locking." --William Buck