Rabscuttle
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On the subject of uninteresting rooms, people have said that they don't mind if the first person through gets a small bonus. Now, a reward for the first player through doesn't sound so bad, if we can be sure that it is indeed the first person who gets the bonus, and not for example, the first person who doesn't accidentally bump into a wall, or stop to turn their sword before leaving, etc. We want to be guaranteed that it is in fact the first person through the room who gets the juicy four point bonus.

So! The challenge is to create a room that can only be conquered in a certain number of moves - no more, no less. There should be no variation in the high scores for the room. It doesn't have to be an entrance if you don't want it to.

That's probably not too hard, so here's a further challenge: Without using scripting (except for perhaps pre-placed Halphs, Slayers & Mimics) how long can you make the room?

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[Last edited by Rabscuttle at 08-25-2006 10:59 AM]

Kevin_P86
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File: Fixed Length.hold (852 bytes)
Downloaded 65 times.
License: Public Domain

Ok, well here's my shot - I believe it is only possible to complete in 641 moves (someone prove me wrong...?).

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+++++[>+++++<-]>[>+++>++++>+++++<<<-]>.>+.>-------.<++++.+++++.

Rabscuttle
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File: Short Rooms.hold (686 bytes)
Downloaded 61 times.
License: Public Domain

Looks good.

Ooh, and Fixed Length is better than One Length.

Here are fixed length rooms of length 1 and 2.

michthro
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File: FixedMove.hold (3.8 KB)
Downloaded 60 times.
License: Public Domain

Ok. This one requires 1185 moves. I think it's possible to do much, much better by playing around with snakes.

Rabscuttle
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File: Longer Room.hold (983 bytes)
Downloaded 54 times.
License: Public Domain

Here is a tar idea that (should) take 1127 moves and could be extended.

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[Last edited by Rabscuttle at 08-25-2006 02:31 PM]

Chaco
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File: Exactly 98.hold (1023 bytes)
Downloaded 60 times.
License: Public Domain

I have another idea for a room, which I will build in just a second.

EDIT:

This room (the entrance that is) can only be conquered in 98 moves, no more, no less.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):

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[Last edited by Chaco at 08-25-2006 02:46 PM]

Rabscuttle
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File: FixedMimicRattler.hold (2.5 KB)
Downloaded 59 times.
License: Public Domain

Here one based on michthro's, but replacing the red serpent with a decoy + looping rattler.

Didn't check it but it's about 550 ^ 2 = approx 300000.

tokyokid
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File: Fixed Amount of Moves.hold (919 bytes)
Downloaded 58 times.
License: Public Domain

Here's one with 528 moves. (trapdoor puzzle)

Chaco
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Tokyokid, yours doesn't count - I can easily take more than 528 moves by waiting or by attempting to fall off the pit. Therefore your move amount is NOT fixed.

Also, I don't see a red door anywhere, so what's stopping me from just running to the staircase and taking many fewer than 528 moves?

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Someone Else
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File: FL The Level The Entrance Victory.demo (1 KB)
Downloaded 54 times.
License: Public Domain

I beat Kevin_P86's hold. See demo.

Someone Else
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File: Non-changeable length.hold (1007 bytes)
Downloaded 49 times.
License: Public Domain

Here's mine.

Doom
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Chaco wrote:
I have another idea for a room, which I will build in just a second.

EDIT:

This room (the entrance that is) can only be conquered in 98 moves, no more, no less.

I conquered your room in 92 moves. And if that's not obvious enough, it's also possible to do in 10000.

Chaco
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Let's play the game of Guess the First Wrong Assumption!



Perhaps a demo is needed for me to see my flaw.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):

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[Last edited by Chaco at 08-25-2006 06:06 PM]

Doom
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Well, 4 and 5 are obviously wrong.

I don't think you'll need a demo. The trick is to:

Chaco
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Well, alright. I'd fix the room, but. It's not like it's an entry or something. With the arrows/orthosquares/walls moved one square south, the room will then function as intended.

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Kevin_P86
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File: Fixed Length.hold (852 bytes)
Downloaded 49 times.
License: Public Domain

Someone Else wrote:
I beat Kevin_P86's hold. See demo.

Ok, fine. How about this?

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+++++[>+++++<-]>[>+++>++++>+++++<<<-]>.>+.>-------.<++++.+++++.

Kevin_P86
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Someone Else wrote:
Here's mine.

I assume 105 is the intended length? It can be beaten in 110. Or 115. Or 198265981692837918274. (You can wait on (26, 23), or (16, 0), or after striking the first orb, you can move SW, then SE and wait there).

(I would attach demos, but there is no way to exit the room, and therefore no way to complete the room...)

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+++++[>+++++<-]>[>+++>++++>+++++<<<-]>.>+.>-------.<++++.+++++.

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[Last edited by Kevin_P86 at 08-25-2006 08:45 PM]

Kevin_P86
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wallu wrote:
That's possibly longest optimal solution ever recorded.

No, there are some rooms in the Longest Rooms competion with orbs / doors, or with prime-multiple snake loops, that take billions and billions of moves.

However, if you mean the longest room for which there exists a demo, then I would agree.

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[Last edited by Kevin_P86 at 08-25-2006 08:45 PM]

Chaco
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Longest optimal solution ever recorded sounds fine to me. I don't know how you managed to misinterpret that.

I think I have another idea for a room, but I'm not sure it's exactly original... You need tar, mud, or something else that acts as a timer, otherwise there's no way to keep Beethro from simply waiting when he doesn't need to.

____________________________
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[Last edited by Chaco at 08-25-2006 08:53 PM]

Kevin_P86
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Chaco wrote:
Longest optimal solution ever recorded sounds fine to me. I don't know how you managed to misinterpret that.

Everyone's good at something!

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+++++[>+++++<-]>[>+++>++++>+++++<<<-]>.>+.>-------.<++++.+++++.

michthro
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File: FixedLengthHanoi.hold (1.1 KB)
Downloaded 46 times.
License: Public Domain

I *think* I have a Hanoi system working. See if you can break it. I only used 5 orbs for the basic Hanoi idea, but there's room for lots more, and I can see how to extend the path into a sort of spiral. So, unless there's a flaw, we could make a fixed length room that requires something like, let's say 2^40 moves.

You'll want to enter facing N. The 4 orbs at the top and the one nearest the entrance form the basic Hanoi system. The rest is all about forcing you to keep moving and so on.

michthro
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File: FixedLengthHanoi2.hold (1.1 KB)
Downloaded 49 times.
License: Public Domain

My first version is unnecessarily complicated. Here's a better one, with much more room for extension.

EDIT: Hold updated.

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[Last edited by michthro at 08-26-2006 04:57 PM]

Rabscuttle
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Nice. I've almost got my looping Slayer version working (because I love looping Slayers) It'll take up more space than yours though.

It's possible to stand on the last force arrow and go back and forth between the last two orbs. I think it works if you replace the trapdoor with the door the mimic controls?

Rabscuttle
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File: FixedSlayerLoop.hold (1.9 KB)
Downloaded 55 times.
License: Public Domain

Yay, looping Slayers! Should be roughly the same logic as the eternity holds.

~8000 moves. ctrl-5 until you can't ctrl-5 no more. Then go south twice.

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[Last edited by Rabscuttle at 08-26-2006 01:24 PM]

michthro
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Cool! Fixed length Eternity, *and* all you have to do is stand there. Add a dozen or so Slayers and that one's ready for Holds.

Rabscuttle wrote:
It's possible to stand on the last force arrow and go back and forth between the last two orbs. I think it works if you replace the trapdoor with the door the mimic controls?

Woops.. Thanks. The mimic setup was actually totally flawed. Fixed now, I think. Plus another bug. New attachment above.

michthro
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File: FixedLengthGuard.hold (859 bytes)
Downloaded 49 times.
License: Public Domain

Let a guard do most of the heavy work, and even less space is required - only 8 squares per orb. So we could be looking at more or less, what, 2^180 orb strikes?

EDIT: Bug-fix. One day I'm going to get something right the first time..

Btw, why doesn't ctrl+5 work? The guard still only makes one move at a time.

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[Last edited by michthro at 08-27-2006 10:51 AM]

Rabscuttle
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Neat. :) There might be some turning issues when the guard moves too far west.

Ctrl-5 only works if the clock is up. So you need queens or snakes (or Slayer/Halph entrances).

Chaco
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michthro wrote:
Btw, why doesn't ctrl+5 work? The guard still only makes one move at a time.

Guards aren't timed elements. You need a queen, mother, or serpent for that. Unfortunately, those introduce their own problems...

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Jason
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This is kinda offtopic, but why does a serpant make a timer?

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Play my holds?

Chaco
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You haven't noticed? Their behavior is slightly influenced by what turn number it is. I won't go any further though, so you can have fun determining how.

____________________________
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