Syntax
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That's how I understood your post. I just think that without Caravel.net, optimisation is not really possible/available so even with a later upload, I doubt many positions would change.

The top 20-50 also seems quite static (apart from you climbing up the rankings ) VaC has been 32nd for example for a good couple of years despite not playing. The top 20 is a lot more dynamic (VaC was in the top 10 at one point).

In any case, I doubt recent Caravel.net uploads would affect your standing.

Penwielder
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Syntax wrote:
I think that very little difference would be made to the HS if everyone uploaded their non-Caravel scores - except just the 1 point gained per level.

When I recently got JtRH from winning a contest and thus got a month of CaravelNet, my position went from 73 to... I think 62; I don't recall exactly. For the first half of this year I optimized just as much offline as I do online, which probably helped make that initial leap. Anyhow, I'm now down to 54th place, although I think I was in 53rd when that month ended. Come and get me!

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west.logan
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That's exactly the sort of scenario I was thinking of. Thanks.

I may come and get you...eventually. I'm honestly not really competitive yet (in both attitude or capability).

Currently sitting at 115. May pass up Maurog today.

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da rogu3
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I've started competing in the highscores, so I'll set some goals of my own.

Next target, west.logan (107)

west.logan
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Hurrah!

Do you plan on getting only 1st place or 1st place ties?

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Banjooie
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If I was going to legit compete in the high scores, I'd go for quantity before quality. There are legit a gajillion holds I'm pretty sure noone bothers with ever.

da rogu3
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west.logan wrote:
Do you plan on getting only 1st place or 1st place ties?

Well, it's pretty boring copy a demo move by move, so no. (if a demo isn't that long, then I'll probably match it, but otherwise, I'll strive for top 10 in every room at least)

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[Last edited by da rogu3 at 08-30-2011 10:40 AM]

mxvladi
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da rogu3 wrote:
Well, it's pretty boring copy a demo move by move,[...]

You do realise that it's also somewhat unfair to other players, right? "Best demos" thingy is there not for copying each #1 you see.

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[Last edited by mxvladi at 08-28-2011 09:07 PM]

da rogu3
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Yeah, I just did it a little bit at the start, just to get a feel of optimal smiting techniques; I won't get a 1st place tie in every single room from now. (but I don't see much of an issue matching the 1st place score if the demo itself is extremely short)

west.logan
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I don't see a problem myself. It could seem a little cheap but watching better players helps you get better and the person who got the original first still has more points. I'd feel flattered if someone copied me.

It's not quite like cheating off the top kid in the class for a test.

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mxvladi
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west.logan wrote:
I don't see a problem myself. It could seem a little cheap but watching better players helps you get better and the person who got the original first still has more points. I'd feel flattered if someone copied me.

I don't have issue with anyone watching #1 demos, partially or fully. That indeed helps learning new techniques etc.

But I don't think copying the demo step-by-step is a good idea. That doesn't improve the current #1 at all and also drops the person who has a fair #2 down to #3(one with #3 - to #4 etc). Although if one can tie #1 fairly or with watching #1 demo partially - I think that's fair enough; it's just step-by-step copying that bothers me.

With that said, I'm perfectly fine if one takes some techniques from #1 demo and uses them to improve the current score. I think this is primary reason why there's "best demos" thingy there.


That, of course, is just my opinion about this all, but I don't think many people appreciate when #1 demo is just copied step-by-step for the sake of tying it.

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[Last edited by mxvladi at 08-28-2011 09:29 PM]

Rheb
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west.logan wrote:
I don't see a problem myself. It could seem a little cheap but watching better players helps you get better and the person who got the original first still has more points. I'd feel flattered if someone copied me.

It's not quite like cheating off the top kid in the class for a test.

In those cases where you already have several players on tied first there's no problem with copying demos. In those cases where the first clearly stands out from the rest I think it's fair (if you've watched that demo) to leave it alone. This will let other players see that it's a very original solution that only one player has ever achieved so far.

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Syntax
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I think copying a demo kind of misses the main point of DROD - it's a game I mean, spider could have a 13 avg across all rooms but doubt he'd actual enjoy doing so.

I agree with mxvladi that watching demos is no bad thing and it will teach you a lot. I tend to watch the start of demos just to get an idea of which entrance I should be focused on if there are multiple. Generally though it might not be the best anyway.

Blondbeard
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If you copy a demo I think you ought to do it with CaravelNet turned of. No big deal, though (IMO).

west.logan
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I certainly see how it might annoy some, but as it stands it cannot be prevented nor is it necessarily "wrong" since the game allows it.

For a long time I was annoyed at Super Smash Bros (Melee) players who rolled constantly as I felt it defeated the original intent of the game. But it was a part of the game. Similarly with snaking in F-Zero GX and apparently some people feel that way about Mario Kart DS too, or shortcuts in Mario Kart 64. I competed in all of those games and there were always folks who thought it was abusing the system (sometimes including myself) but fact is, it was part of the game, like it or not.

Now it is up to the individual to do the "honest" thing by not copying first place demos. It has to be a personal thing. I personally do not (except in a few instances where I watched through the first portion because I couldn't get it on my own). That's my choice.

On a related subject, I have been having a blast with the MetDROiD Prime hold. I loved the game and the author did a great job of following it and including shortcuts and such. I will certainly have some good things to say about it when it comes time to review.

Oh, and da Rogu3, you're going to have to hit a moving target. I'm just about at 103 now.

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CuriousShyRabbit
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I respectfully disagree. Just because it's impossible to prevent all forms of cheating at DROD highscores, that doesn't make cheating the right thing to do.

Other forms of cheating we've argued about in the past include using unlimited undo to create victory demos, and using computer programs to optimize room solutions.

Hopefully everyone here has enough honesty and integrity to submit their own work for highscores.

Banjooie
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I think the easiest way to handle this is that copying a demo is like doing a TAS, and doing it straight yourself is like a normal speedrun.

Both are inherently valuable for finding legit the fastest possible path, but in a TAS it's more about the SCIENCE of it, and the other is more a show of skill.

Blondbeard
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Banjooie wrote:
If I was going to legit compete in the high scores, I'd go for quantity before quality. There are legit a gajillion holds I'm pretty sure noone bothers with ever.

Ever heard of CuriousShyRabit?

Banjooie
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Exception, rule proving.

Jatopian
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Exceptions do not prove rules. Rather the opposite. The word you are looking for is "counterexample".

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da rogu3
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I think everyone's taking this a bit too seriously and literally here.

OK, so if someone finds an incredible solution which happens to be 50 moves ahead of the nearest rival, then sure, the best thing to do would be to leave it alone, I agree with that now, and so do others.

But if I get a demo, which is 4th place and just 5 moves behind the top score, is it really that much of a crime to replay a room and get a first place tie?

As for the term 'copying', literally step by step without thinking about the solution is probably not a good thing to do, but what about using similar techniques to get the 1st place tie? For example, Super Dungeon Deluxe 4-level pack 1 : Floor 1 (I) : 3 North, 2 West. I used the top scoring demo but solved 1 part of the room 2 moves quicker, resulting in a 1st place. mxvladi promptly took that 1st back by another 2 moves. I then tried to optimise further, solving parts of the room slightly differently, but ended up matching his score. This isn't wrong in any way.

Now, I admit that maybe in ~10 rooms I've copied things exactly (where the top score was unique, that is), and I apologise for the distress that has caused. But the rest of the rooms which I've got 1st place ties in, are either where lots of people have a 1st place tie, or if it's close to my initial score and I used similar techniques to match the score. To call that 'cheating' in the same way that using a computer program, or unlimited undo is, is completely untrue. Besides, how could anyone tell or judge for themselves if a demo is genuine or copied if the demo was the same either way? Also, wouldn't scanning through a demo, finding some trivial way to save moves, and improving the score just by using much of the original demo, be just as bad as simply copying it?

Hope this clears everything up. (don't want anyone to look at my high scores and automatically assume that I'm a dishonest person who has copied each demo without using any skill)

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[Last edited by da rogu3 at 08-30-2011 12:51 PM]

west.logan
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Thanks rogu3. I do agree.

And CSR, you say you disagree with me but I'm not sure you do. You're talking about the ethics of copying, and so did I. But where you seem to disagree is on the legality. You call it cheating. It is not.

Just ask Schik if he would ban anyone who copied first place moves. I doubt he would because that is in no way breaking any rules. On a personal level he might advise against it, I don't know. However, using a computer program for unlimited undo or to optimize a solution is completely different as it uses other tools to exploit the game (same with turbo controllers or TAS in competition).

It's like playing AE or JtRH holds in TCB. I could personally feel that it is cheating to compete with an undo key, or being able to click on orbs, but it is part of the game and you can't prevent anyone who feels like they can from doing so.

All I'm saying is that this is not a "you cannot" issue. It is not a cheating issue. It has to be left up to individual conscience. Now if people want to explain to an individual that it is dishonest, or doesn't show much integrity, or how inconsiderate it is, or beg them to let their high scores be an indication of their skill level, then by all means go ahead, I think that's great. But you cannot say they are wrong or cheating.

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Jutt
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I imagine that step by step copying of a lot of demos is actually a rather tedious process and far less enjoyable than figuring out an optimal solution yourself. As such it seems unlikely to me that people are going to take unfair advantage of the system on a large scale.

We could of course change the game to only allow downloading demos that are not better than your current best. That way you cannot improve your score by copying a better demo, but you can still watch other demos to learn new techniques. I don't think this is necessary though.

Also I'm even less opposed to using computer programs or unlimited undo to optimize — mostly because neither seem worth the trouble implementing, nor at all that useful for many DROD rooms.

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Blondbeard
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I for one would welcome unlimitid undo. Copying, or improving, demos in the way da rogu3 talks about seems a lot more fishy to me. Of course it's not cheating, but I would feel like a cheater if I did it. Unlimited undo would feel as a useful tool ading value to the game. I wouldn't use it if it wasn't suported though.

No insult intended to da rogu3. We all have our unique sense of ethics. I don't belive in Right and Wrong, these are only opinions.

Schik
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A few years ago there was a user who was obviously going through and copying #1 scores, move for move. Caravel asked him to stop doing that. If he had just replied "no, it's not against the rules" I don't know what we would have done.

We offer two things that kinda conflict:
- Download others' demos so you can see what they did and learn
- Compete for #1 scores

It's not ideal for competitors who are good of their own accord, but that's a compromise we make, because we value the opportunity for people to learn from others.

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west.logan
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And I certainly appreciate that opportunity and hope for the community's sake (and my own) that it is never removed.

And I would like to say "Thank you" to all of you who have your 1st place demos. You have taught me a lot. Especially Wallu, TFMurphy, mxvladi, and Tahnan, and Blondebeard. Some of your methods were absolutely brilliant.

I do currently have 4 or 5 untied firsts (two by a good amount), and I wouldn't have started thinking outside the box if you hadn't shown me the way first.

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west.logan
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Schik,

I wonder if something could be added to the EULA or site that would specifically address the issue of "abuse" to the high-score viewing system. I.e.,

"Being able to view high scores is for the purpose of improving your own abilities, not for matching the high score. Abusing this feature will result in termination of your account"

That way, it's sufficiently vague to continue to allow people to view those high scores, but sufficiently legal to scare off potential abusers. I'm sure there would be lots of implications to address but I'm offering this as one potential solution.

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Jatopian
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Too vague. The kinds of people who like DROD include the kind of person who's going to push the envelope. I think that this is not an issue; the first person to get the highest score still retains a unique spot. Reminds me too much of the "voting holds 1" argument.

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CuriousShyRabbit
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I think it's actually too specific. I've written a lot of rule lists and instructions in my time, and I haven't had good luck with wording like that.

Competing for DROD highscores is fun if nobody abuses the highscore system in any way.

Once you start listing specific "don'ts" you have to list them all, exhaustively. Jatopian's right that some DROD players are envelope pushers. They will assume that anything not on the specific list of no-nos is okay.

west.logan
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Jatopian wrote:
Reminds me too much of the "voting holds 1" argument.

No, no, NO! Forget I said anything, please!

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