NiroZ
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TripleM wrote:
This is incredible. Even in such a tiny space, theres still so many strategizing that can go on.
For example..

By my calculations, in my area (where neither me nor Hikari jumped initially), there are 8 possible sequences. Hikari cannot die (feel free to type in complete random commands ), whereas I can die in 4 of them. I have two possible winning sequences, one that requires me to type in 10 commands, one that requires 8.

8 commands including bumps i would assume? in that case, seeing that they are issues automatically, Hikari will having to give out a few commands to. Its how many jumps that really matter.

TripleM
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8 commands, including bumps, but not including trailing bumps (since they will be done automatically). Hikari doesn't have to even type anything in.

[edit] - actually, make that four commands.

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[Last edited by TripleM at 08-15-2006 01:01 PM]

eytanz
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Actually, TripleM - I'm confused - I just checked and you are the upper snake. The configuration in your box is the same as in mine, except that I have Hikari's role and you have Darkmatt's role.

It seems to me that I can survive by typing in exactly 1 more command, and Darkmatt can survive by typing in 0.

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Chris
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TripleM wrote:
By my calculations, [...], there are 8 possible sequences. Hikari cannot die [...]

I think you missed the 9th possible sequence, in which Hikari does meet an untimely (if convoluted) death:



For that to happen, these steps must happen:

* Hikari jumps over the block that's currently directly in front of him

* You then jump when you next have a real choice to make

* Hikari then bumps into your head (which he would be silly to do, since jumping will take him to freedom immediately)


As for the minimum typing you need to do to ensure survival, I think you can get away with typing the 3 commands, "xxJ", right now, where the x's don't matter, since your next 2 moves (bumping into the dead end, and jumping backwards) are forced anyway. Am I counting the same way as you? If so, what were the 4 moves you thought you needed?

Chris
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eytanz wrote:
It seems to me that I can survive by typing in exactly 1 more command, and Darkmatt can survive by typing in 0.

Darkmatt will survive whatever you do if he doesn't issue any more commands, that's true.

But if you want to issue your commands right now, and be sure of escaping, you'll need to issue at least 3 commands. If you're willing to wait just under 9 hours, then you'll only need to issue a single command.

In about an hour, you're going to run into Darkmatt's body, so a command will be consumed, even though it can't affect what happens.

Then, 8 hours after that, you'll hit the wall at the end, and another useless command will be consumed. Once that's happened, you'll be able to issue your winning command, but only then.

I think TripleM was counting the number of commands he would have to type if he wanted to enter them right now, and then leave the snake unattended.

Chaco
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Well, I think I'm set. Yeah, sorry about that Krishh. If Ostego jumps, you're dead.

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Chris
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Chaco wrote:
Well, I think I'm set. Yeah, sorry about that Krishh. If Ostego jumps, you're dead.

Ostego has no choice but to jump...

Chaco
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...exactly!

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Sergenth
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Chris sed:

That's not quite right. If the top snake bumps and the bottom snake jumps, then the bottom snake dies, for sure. Remember that the top snake moves first, and it effectively one step ahead of the bottom snake, so it can jump down just before it is blocked by the bottom snake:

You got me there. I must have offset the movement of the bottom snake in my mind by one square. I should have drawn it out turn by turn.

It's all because I used "strategery" and not strategy!

Watcher
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Chris wrote:

TripleM wrote:
By my calculations, [...], there are 8 possible sequences. Hikari cannot die [...]

I think you missed the 9th possible sequence, in which Hikari does meet an untimely (if convoluted) death:

Click here to view the secret text

×

For that to happen, these steps must happen:

* Hikari jumps over the block that's currently directly in front of him

* You then jump when you next have a real choice to make

* Hikari then bumps into your head (which he would be silly to do, since jumping will take him to freedom immediately)

Actually, this sequence is impossible in the rightmost Pair Chambers, where the first square of the lower exit path isn't filled by a box. When Hikari bumps into TripleM's head, he'll turn right towards the exit.

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Chris
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Watcher wrote:
Actually, this sequence is impossible in the rightmost Pair Chambers, where the first square of the lower exit path isn't filled by a box.

Oh yes!

I thought all the pair chambers were identical, but this missing block does make a small difference.

Tahnan
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All you people and your pairs of snakes in your pair chambers. Meanwhile, plod plod plod. Or I suppose, slither slither slither.

I'll be back periodically to post lyrics to "The Sidewinder Sleeps Tonight" or the like.

jbluestein
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So it seems like the next (relatively) interesting decision point is at moves 35 and 36.

Potential for as many as 11 more snakes to die.

Unfortunately, it's at a time where I'm usually not at my computer, so I don't know if I'll be able to watch.



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eytanz
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Chris wrote:

eytanz wrote:
It seems to me that I can survive by typing in exactly 1 more command, and Darkmatt can survive by typing in 0.

Darkmatt will survive whatever you do if he doesn't issue any more commands, that's true.

But if you want to issue your commands right now, and be sure of escaping, you'll need to issue at least 3 commands. If you're willing to wait just under 9 hours, then you'll only need to issue a single command.

In about an hour, you're going to run into Darkmatt's body, so a command will be consumed, even though it can't affect what happens.

No, you have the roles flipped; I'm the bottom snake - he hit my body, not his. Yet even so, I'm the one in risk of dying.

If I bump on my next command, we both survive.

If I jump on my next command and Darkmatt jumps, we both survive.

If I jump on my next command and Darkmatt bumps, I die.

So, the only thing I need to do is refrain from jumping and then my survival is certain.

...

...

MUST ... NOT ... CLICK ... J

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ErikH2000
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Hikari wrote:
Hey Erik, once a snake reaches the easternmost column, does the next turn for that player start them on the full arena, or do we wait until everyone's either dead or free from this map first?

We wait, and then everyone that survived starts simultaneously in the next snakepit.

There are some exits in this snakepit that are two rows wide. If one snake gets to the end and loops back around, blocking the rightmost square for the other snake, we will treat the exit as unblocked anyhow. So don't worry about getting out of the Pair Chamber sooner--there is no advantage.

-Erik

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Chris
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I just looked at the snake pit. Local time was 18:26:46, and the snake pit said "Time left until next move: 00:29:59".

That means the next move will be at 18:56:45. Is this a bug in the code, or is the caravelnet server's clock over 3 minutes fast?

My clock is right by the way.

Chris
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eytanz wrote:
No, you have the roles flipped; I'm the bottom snake - he hit my body, not his. Yet even so, I'm the one in risk of dying.

You're right. I mixed you two up. But if you switch the names around, I stand by what I said.

Also, I disagree with all 3 of your next statements. These pictures show counter examples for each of them:

eytanz wrote:
If I bump on my next command, we both survive.

eytanz wrote:
If I jump on my next command and Darkmatt jumps, we both survive.

eytanz wrote:
If I jump on my next command and Darkmatt bumps, I die.

eytanz wrote:
So, the only thing I need to do is refrain from jumping and then my survival is certain.

Agreed.

eytanz
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Chris wrote:

Also, I disagree with all 3 of your next statements. These pictures show counter examples for each of them:

eytanz wrote:
If I bump on my next command, we both survive.

You're right here, though this requires deliberate suicide from Darkmatt's part.

eytanz wrote:
If I jump on my next command and Darkmatt jumps, we both survive.

eytanz wrote:
If I jump on my next command and Darkmatt bumps, I die.

I'm pretty sure those two are impossible - if my calculations are right, the top serpent will reach the top exit before I block it.



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[Last edited by eytanz at 08-15-2006 06:22 PM]

Hikari
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TripleM wrote:
This is incredible. Even in such a tiny space, theres still so many strategizing that can go on.
For example..

By my calculations, in my area (where neither me nor Hikari jumped initially), there are 8 possible sequences. Hikari cannot die (feel free to type in complete random commands ), whereas I can die in 4 of them. I have two possible winning sequences, one that requires me to type in 10 commands, one that requires 8.

Oh darn, I was hoping you hadn't worked through all that and figured out what to do OK, so I guess I'll just leave the same path I had set already.

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[Last edited by Hikari at 08-15-2006 06:29 PM]

Chris
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eytanz wrote:
I'm pretty sure those two are impossible - if my calculations are right, the top serpent will reach the top exit before I block it.

Can you be more specific please? Which step in each picture are you claiming to be impossible?

I've numbered the steps for each snake in picture 2, and will do the same in picture 3.

eytanz
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Chris wrote:

eytanz wrote:
I'm pretty sure those two are impossible - if my calculations are right, the top serpent will reach the top exit before I block it.

Can you be more specific please? Which step in each picture are you claiming to be impossible?

I've numbered the steps for each snake in picture 2, and will do the same in picture 3.

Hmm... Your count seems correct, though of course the death in picture 3 is not inevitable (though it requires a further jump to avoid it).

I can't figure out why my earlier calculations got a different turn count...

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Chris
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eytanz wrote:
of course the death in picture 3 is not inevitable (though it requires a further jump to avoid it).

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. There is no death in picture 3 - both snakes escape.

The point I was trying to make with picture 3 was to show that your statement:

  If I jump on my next command and Darkmatt bumps, I die.

was incorrect.

To do this, I showed a situation in which:

  * you jumped on your next command
  * Darkmatt bumped, and
  * you didn't die

eytanz
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Chris wrote:

eytanz wrote:
of course the death in picture 3 is not inevitable (though it requires a further jump to avoid it).

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. There is no death in picture 3 - both snakes escape.

The point I was trying to make with picture 3 was to show that your statement:

  If I jump on my next command and Darkmatt bumps, I die.

was incorrect.

To do this, I showed a situation in which:

  * you jumped on your next command
  * Darkmatt bumped, and
  * you didn't die

Yeah, that was a typo, I meant picture 2. And I know what you were trying to do, and you were right, I was just pointing a random fact out.

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Someone Else
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Ha! If I bump, then I live if I just jump after that! No more command writing for me!

jbluestein
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Someone Else wrote:
Ha! If I bump, then I live if I just jump after that! No more command writing for me!

But wouldn't it be more fun to jump?

I mean, it's an option, anyway.

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Chaco
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I'm set - I just need to bump two more times and I'm set. Beef Row can't get in my way fast enough to stop me.

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coppro
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Chaco wrote:
I'm set - I just need to bump two more times and I'm set. Beef Row can't get in my way fast enough to stop me.

Yeah. I played it safe. I don't even need to issue a command and I survive regardless.

Banjooie
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Goddamnit, I'm dead. D:

eytanz
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Banjooie wrote:
Goddamnit, I'm dead. D:

No, you're not. Note the position in Chris's picture 3 in response to me above, which is reachable from your current position. You also have a way to survive if your partner jumps instead of bumps and his next decision point.

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[Last edited by eytanz at 08-15-2006 11:36 PM]

coppro
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Banjooie wrote:
Goddamnit, I'm dead. D:

No, BBBJ and you survive.