robin
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 859
Registered: 09-01-2004
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Actually, I like everthing as it is/went.

Everything started with KDD and we've evolved from there,
with ideas from the forumites (feature requests)

Secret rooms were also in KDD but with JtRH there was a new challenge added for people who wanted to play this challenge.

The name "City Beneath" comes from KDD level 24 which was called: “subterranean town” called Neatherville

Tar and Serpents also made that evolution with growing(Tar)
and serpent-movement kept the same.
But Mud and Gel added much to the game,
as well Rattlesnakes and Adders.
Small changes with much potential.

Spiders are as well fun, they used to be only invisable on a certain floor/room style, but evolved to be invisable in every room style and now with shallow water have a big addition.
Maybe we do need a visable "roach-moving" monster for shallow water.
But I wouldn't make Spiders visable.

Scripted Characters where also asked by the forumites,
so they could make there own "Neather",
and there are some architects who did a great job with it.

So to conclude I think the evolution DROD made is a good one,
and a logical one.
Because most things (and maybe even all things) came from KDD and the forumites (who were here in those days).
GatEB was a good addition to this, and was supposed to be easier,
to hook new people to the DROD games.
With the few things added to the game engine it was also a fun hold for me.
So I can't wait for TSS to see what's next.



PS: this is my 1000th post

____________________________

mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5460
Registered: 02-04-2003
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Jacob wrote:

OneMoreNameless wrote:
* "CHARGE!" north to Englos Keep. Immediately charge ... south into ... Englos Keep. Really? Really? You couldn't have possibly flipped the

Hmm...good point! I really do wonder why we didn't notice and change this.
(However, I guess I kind of assumed that Englos Keep wasn't immediately 1 room north of the "CHARGE!!" room, and that the troops marched north to Englos... and on eventually reaching there the entrance to the keep was on the north side. But, yeah..)

Oh, this is simple to explain. Inauro Canyon is north of Englos on the master map of the Eighth. But, the shore of the Rasaran beachhead is south of Englos, which is surrounded by a large wall. So, the Rasarun army was south of the entrance to Englos Keep, and needed to march northward to enter. I agree this can seem confusing from a narrative standpoint in the game, but it's canonical.

Dischorran
Level: Smitemaster

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mrimer wrote:

Jacob wrote:

OneMoreNameless wrote:
* "CHARGE!" north to Englos Keep. Immediately charge ... south into ... Englos Keep. Really? Really? You couldn't have possibly flipped the

Hmm...good point! I really do wonder why we didn't notice and change this.
(However, I guess I kind of assumed that Englos Keep wasn't immediately 1 room north of the "CHARGE!!" room, and that the troops marched north to Englos... and on eventually reaching there the entrance to the keep was on the north side. But, yeah..)

Oh, this is simple to explain. Inauro Canyon is north of Englos on the master map of the Eighth. But, the shore of the Rasaran beachhead is south of Englos, which is surrounded by a large wall. So, the Rasarun army was south of the entrance to Englos Keep, and needed to march northward to enter. I agree this can seem confusing from a narrative standpoint in the game, but it's canonical.

That's quite a long "CHARGE!!". Did they need to set up camp in between rounds of running with weapons drawn?

____________________________

D.Craven_0ne
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 201
Registered: 12-23-2012
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There was probably going to be another hub area, but they didn't want the game to be too long, so instead of all the leaders going missing and having to find them before THE "charge", Gunthro didn't give s**t, skipped on rescuing the others and led the attack himself.

...that would actualy make sense.

____________________________
..and remember kids, don't fear war! In nuclear winter, everyday's a christmas!

mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5460
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Dischorran wrote:
That's quite a long "CHARGE!!". Did they need to set up camp in between rounds of running with weapons drawn?

And, boy, are my arms tired!

---

[Last edited by mrimer at 04-23-2013 06:54 PM]

OneMoreNameless
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 131
Registered: 07-31-2010
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Guys, I do you hope you realise, I critise because I care. DROD is the best puzzle engine I've ever played. I really enjoyed 95% of the first three games and still regularly enjoyed like 70% of this one (plus Flood Warning was awesome). I wouldn't have minded much if it was just easy this time around, but I feel like there are also explicit flaws that could have been avoided and I really just want to see The Second Sky be the absolute best game that it can be by being aware and learning from these.

With that said.

EPIC BLUNDER CRITICAL ANALYSIS: REVENGE OF THE MAXIMUM OVER-RANT 3: THE RECKONING: TLDR FOR LIFE

The Golem Prison honestly didn't bother me. It just felt like another cutscene and what you had to do to progress was (almost painfully, thank you golem voice actor) obvious. The Endless Nothing, however, did. Every other sand key is directly and neatly given to you, but no, you then also make the player pointlessly hold down arrow keys and count screen scrolling for a while. Bad developer. You can't have a cookie.

The third hub area overall was kinda dull. That's not to say that the individual puzzles weren't mostly fine - each level introduced its new element quickly and there were plenty of clever tricks to be solved - but very rarely were any other elements used alongside them and it's not like the game had a shortage of stuff the player has been taught by now. The levels functioned as stand-alone puzzle sets, sure, but what (for me) makes DROD stand out from other puzzle games is how well its seemingly simple pieces can interact together to create constantly unique challenges. The levels here just stuck to their one gun and never really showcased that variety, which was a pity.

This leads me to worry a little about The Second Sky. DROD already has a large number of puzzle elements and SSky is set to add even more. There is simply not going to be space to continue the 'add one element per level' formula and have any degree of depth and mixmatching to the puzzles, unless the game is either ridiculously long or heavily cuts existing elements. Given that we now have Flash DROD to advertise to the masses and Epic Blunder aimed at novices, I really, really hope SSky is being designed with experienced and/or competent players in mind who already know / can quickly deduce how the more commonplace elements (arrows, orbs, trapdoors and such) work while the game focuses on the new stuff and mixing it up with the old in interesting ways. Otherwise the game's going to fall very flat until quality user holds start trickling in.

Anyway, the Akandian Desert. The plot crashes to a dead halt, all the amusing NPCs are far behind us, and I am left wondering why it is I'm collecting these sand keys anyway other than the fact that they and these locations are here. Whatever. At least the room aesthetics are nice. Well, until all four keys are collected and the hold just ... abandons its theme altogether and drops you in an entirely generic dungeon. Floor tiles and lighting are used for hints to good effect. Overall, I am content with the presentation of this area.

The Inner Chambers were fun. The scripting was always clear in advance and wow okay was the difficulty finally spiked up for a few rooms in there. The puzzles were clever and enjoyable. Good developer. You can have aaaaaand the game abruptly ends. Right after the plot was getting interesting and with very little of it resolved. With a large number of puzzle elements gone entirely unused, which is sure to disappoint veterans and confuse newbies who now start playing user holds but still don't know what the heck a goblin or token is, again, missing the stated purpose of this hold. Without all that many puzzles having been played on account of the large number of empty traveling rooms and mindless tutorials. Did I ... download the demo by mistake? Danforth Strout, are you lying to me?!

~ Aftermath ~

Yup, scanning entire levels for lightly cracked walls is yet again unfun. Stop this, already. The secret rooms themselves were okay, most not really much harder than the (hub 2 - 3) normal rooms. A few stumped me for a little while before I stubbornly logic-ed them out. There were two I looked up hints for: one because I was overthinking and trying to plan out complicated maneuvers for spare tiles that I didn't actually need when I went ahead and used the solution I'd already guessed, and the other because I hadn't used rafts for ages and had forgotten a pretty basic technique with them. Hey, it's almost like Epic Blunder's teach-and-forget hold design has actual consequences.

Beyond the mastery door, my reward for solving all the optional puzzles was ... a few more puzzles! I am okay with this. The difficulty was a crapshot here; some puzzles were really tricky and a few others laughable. The room with unused puzzle elements was about the stupidest and most confusing way to showcase them, yet still managed to fit a clever mimic puzzle in there somehow. Well done? There was also a roach transformation puzzle! Every hold should have a roach transformation puzzle. The audio outtakes were highly amusing.

*sigh*

Okay, no more putting it off. This is it. This is the big one. The final stretch.

The mother and son quest, holy hoobuffins, the mother and son quest. Every single part of this was awful and left such a sour taste in my mouth about this game that it would take whoever added it somehow physically appearing in front of me right now so that I could slap them across the mouth to even partially mitigate its obnoxiousness. First, you play 'hunt the changed script' across the Tuenan Coast in order to reach 100% exploration and learn that this quest even exists. Second, you locate a room whose entrance has been invisibly hidden without clues and using engine-abusing stacked tiles I'd expect from an ugly user-hold rather than the official game. Oh, and expect tedious manual backtracking mingled throughout this, by the way. Now the third step is the entirely unrelated task of mastering the hold, which is both not mentioned in the slightest and counter-intuitive given that you're doing this quest to access an entire unvisited level, so expect the relevant NPCs to refuse to acknowledge that you've done as they ask for a while. (Quite frankly, I'm not sure how much of this I should be reporting as a bug.) The next step? Backtrack to over a dozen different locations you probably don't remember and use a single letter from each to form a clue that (according to a quick forum search) you won't understand without having pored over the manual. And also scroll through that irritating desert screen again. All for a level that I can only assume revolves around interface-screwing spiders. Frack. That.

Look, it's not that this kind of obscure clue searching doesn't have appeal or that it's 'bad' per se, it's that it's 100% out of context for everything else in DROD. Locking the final level of your tile-and-predictable-logic based puzzles behind this nonsense is going to piss off far, far more players than those few who happen to enjoy it. Imagine the uproar if you forced Call of Duty players to win a game of chess against a grandmaster before they were allowed to join their favourite multiplayer map. This quest is basically the equivalent of locking a JRPG fan out of testing their might against the true final boss unless they've first invited the game's chief writer out for coffee and demonstrated their mastery of public breakdancing. If someone gives me the co-ordinates for the Spider Cave I'll comment on it directly, but I can promise that any response will be in crude limericks drawn in MS Paint or something else appropriately wildly inappropriate.

Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1645
Registered: 12-12-2004
IP: Logged

It's funny, because I'm pretty sure most of these are the same things I said when I finished the game.

Except I have more rank points, so you listened closer to me? I don't know.

Yes, the Spider Cave is obnoxious and hilariously not worth it. I don't care what anyone says. It showcases that spiders work a little differently with shallow water, but other than that it's boring as heck, you are missing nothing.

Anyway, the good news is basically that the user holds continue to be fantastic with the new additions, and there were some goooood engine changes.

But yeah, guys, quit going 'no you're wrong' and realize this guy probably iconifies a lot of standard gamers coming at this game.

Like, not dumb 'lol CoD' players, but legitimate dudes who like puzzle games. We're the average ones. Pay attention because this thread is amazing.

mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5460
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Banjooie wrote:
But yeah, guys, quit going 'no you're wrong' and realize this guy probably iconifies a lot of standard gamers coming at this game.

Hey, Banjooie. I stick to my gun.

All joking aside, please understand I realize this. I'm just not going to belabor the point. The dev team has already moved on to developing TSS.

Given that we now have Flash DROD to advertise to the masses and Epic Blunder aimed at novices, I really, really hope SSky is being designed with experienced and/or competent players in mind who already know / can quickly deduce how the more commonplace elements (arrows, orbs, trapdoors and such) work while the game focuses on the new stuff and mixing it up with the old in interesting ways. Otherwise the game's going to fall very flat until quality user holds start trickling in.

Yes, I think this is (anyone on the dev team, please correct me if I'm wrong) exactly what we're doing for TSS.

ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2810
Registered: 02-04-2003
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Had to say it because the viewpoint here seems really skewed...

I enjoyed GatEB gameplay simply because it was easier. Nearly all the SMSs were too much for me to get into. --at a level of difficulty that I could deal with, but it just wasn't fun.

Personally, I thought it was a pretty good idea to tone down the main releases and let SMSs and user holds supply the difficult challenges. DROD has always suffered from being hard to approach by new players. And those new potential players will never be here on the board making noises.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
Decent Apps - open source tools for writing and deploying privacy-focused LLM-based web apps.

Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1645
Registered: 12-12-2004
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Also, speaking as someone who's beaten the game...


What WAS the Epic Blunder?

ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2810
Registered: 02-04-2003
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Banjooie wrote:
What WAS the Epic Blunder?

http://www.frogsonice.com/froggy/tales/frogsandmice.shtml

...and draw analogies.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
Decent Apps - open source tools for writing and deploying privacy-focused LLM-based web apps.

12th Archivist
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 789
Registered: 12-07-2008
IP: Logged

Honestly?

GatEB is my favorite DROD game. I really liked it, often for the exact reasons OMN disliked it.

Is there something wrong with me?

____________________________
It was going well until it exploded.
~Scott Manley

Check out the DROD Wikia project here!

west.logan
Level: Smitemaster

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ErikH2000 wrote:
I enjoyed GatEB gameplay simply because it was easier. Nearly all the SMSs were too much for me to get into. --at a level of difficulty that I could deal with, but it just wasn't fun.

Personally, I thought it was a pretty good idea to tone down the main releases and let SMSs and user holds supply the difficult challenges. DROD has always suffered from being hard to approach by new players. And those new potential players will never be here on the board making noises.

This is how I felt too. I also feel like the DROD releases are more about new engines than the one, official new hold. There's tons of free (and awesome) holds available which is fantastic.

____________________________
-Logan

stigant
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1182
Registered: 08-19-2004
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Is there something wrong with me?

Probably, but it has nothing to do with GatEB.

BTW, you need to choose a rotation in the Simple Game.

____________________________
Progress Quest Progress

12th Archivist
Level: Smitemaster

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Registered: 12-07-2008
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stigant wrote:

Is there something wrong with me?

Probably, but it has nothing to do with GatEB.

Wait, what do you mean?

____________________________
It was going well until it exploded.
~Scott Manley

Check out the DROD Wikia project here!

Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1645
Registered: 12-12-2004
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This thread is going amazing places.

12th Archivist
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 789
Registered: 12-07-2008
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Banjooie wrote:
This thread is going amazing places.

Oh, no, I was not assuming that stigant was being confrontational.

That would be just mean.

____________________________
It was going well until it exploded.
~Scott Manley

Check out the DROD Wikia project here!