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Briareos
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Jatopian wrote:
Eighth is not a problem so long as the target language has a word for that fraction.
Unless you're in the more alcoholic parts of Austria where "Achte(r)l" is often taken to mean "an eighth of wine"... *hic*

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04-20-2012 at 12:05 AM
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Jatopian
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Austria hasn't discovered context?

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04-20-2012 at 12:18 AM
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DyRsOfDh14
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Maybe someone could give a further explanation about the meaning of some words, like Neather, Eighth, delver, hold, aumtlich, wraithwing and many others, so it would be easier to find the best translation for them.
Obviously, location names should remain the same as long as it's not a regular word (like the Eighth for example).
Words like roach, brain, tar, mud, gel, goblin, etc. can be easily translated, though (at least to spanish).
04-20-2012 at 01:59 AM
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Someone Else
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Root words (as close as I can ascertain - I'm not necessarily a reliable source):
'Neather: From 'Beneath' as in below the ground, and '-er', indicating a person that is such.
Eighth: As in the fraction. So named because of its shape - it resembles an eighth of a cherry pie.
Delver: From 'Delve' (to dig) and '-er'.
Hold: I believe this is actually an English word, though not much used. It simply means 'Fortress', although a direct translation of fortress might be a little unfavourable.
Aumtlich: Honestly, I have no idea. Might be better to just keep this as it is.
Wraithwing: From 'Wraith' meaning a wispy, almost incorporeal being, and 'wing' - to fly.

Tahnan or someone could probably do a better job than I, but is this what you were thinking?
04-20-2012 at 02:16 AM
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DyRsOfDh14
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Okay, that helps, maybe we will need help with other words (I can't remember any more right now).

Another thing that would be a bit difficult is translating the goblins' dialogues, since they have a different kind of speaking...
04-20-2012 at 04:00 AM
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skell
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After sleeping on it, I came to some conclusions. First of all here is a list of Eighth-specific words/phrases that are currently used:

Beethro Budkin
Brain
Dugan
Eighth
Evil Eye
Force Arrow
Hold
Orb
Roach
Roach Queen
Serpent
Spider
Tar
Tar Baby
Tar Mother
Trapdoor
Wraithwing

I think we can safely translate all of these (except obvious things like Dugan or Beethro) and not create much confusion. To make it easier you can include during the first encounter an English version in a parentheses, eg: (EN: Tar). Translate which you want on your own discretion :).

Anyhow it will be still a couple of days before I get the texts ready. If there are other of you who would like to translate, bring it on!

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[Last edited by skell at 04-20-2012 07:03 AM]
04-20-2012 at 07:03 AM
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Tahnan
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Someone Else wrote:
Root words (as close as I can ascertain - I'm not necessarily a reliable source):
Delver: From 'Delve' (to dig) and '-er'.
Hold: I believe this is actually an English word, though not much used. It simply means 'Fortress', although a direct translation of fortress might be a little unfavourable.
Tahnan or someone could probably do a better job than I, but is this what you were thinking?
I'm not positive I can do a better job, though I certainly offered some thoughts when this came up once before, in this topic: http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=15394 .

I am a linguist, but I'm not a polyglot, and I'm not a translator; translation is certainly its own skill. But as has been noted, a lot of words are going to be easy to translate. For what it's worth, here are some thoughts based on my list of game elements, which is to say "things you can add to a room in the editor" (accurate only through TCB). (And yes, I have a list of game elements lying around. Have you played not dr0d 2? No, seriously, you should, it's terrific.)

Easy to translate literally: blue gate, bomb, brain, bridge, broken wall, citizen, clone potion, decoy potion, fuse, gel, gel baby, gel mother, green gate, guard, hot tile, invisibility potion, mimic potion, mirror, mud, mud baby, mud mother, negotiator, obstacle, orthogonal square, pit, pressure plate, rattlesnake, red gate, roach, rock giant, secret wall, speed potion, spider, stairs down, stairs up, tar, tar gate, tar baby, tar mother, trapdoor, tunnel, wall, water
In few languages should these be a problem, as all of these involve everyday senses of common words.

Easy to translate by ignoring them: aumtlich, fegundo, wubba
None of these are English words, so they can be left as-is. "Aumtlich" has a German sound to it (Googling suggests that it's Bavarian for "officially"?), "fegundo" an Italian sound, and "wubba" is...well, wubba. The former two really ought to be left as they are; "wubba" is a made-up word, but it's a kind of imitative sound to suggest something soft and friendly, so it might be worth "translating" it that way.

Not too hard, but be sure to catch the flavor: briar, goblin, orb, rock golem, scroll, serpent, stalwart
All of these words are probably possible to look up in a translation dictionary, as they're all English words, but you'll want to be careful to get the right senses. For instance, "orb" means "ball" or "sphere", but you probably wouldn't want to translate it with your language's word for the black-and-white round thing you kick into a net, if you could help it. These words have an archaic feel to them--like "hold", in fact--and you'll want a word that's relatively familiar and has the meaning but maybe sounds like something from fairy tales rather than the modern world. (For some, you can check things like old Bible translations--"serpent" is used in the story of Eden for the snake that tempted Eve. Or check to see what translations of Dungeons & Dragons use...that'll certainly help with "golem", which is itself a loanword into English, so feel free to borrow it right back.)

Words that, well, Lord help you: adder, evil eye, force arrow, master wall, oremites, roach queen, seep, waterskipper, waterskipper nest, wraithwing
Not all of these are equally difficult, but they all present challenges.

Some of these are hard only only as a matter of choosing the right sense of an ambiguous word: "force", "master", "queen".

As has been noted, an adder is literally a kind of snake, but is an English pun on "addition". If I were translating, I'd probably (regretfully) lose the pun.

"Evil eye" is also a pun; in English, the "evil eye" is the (magical, thus imaginary) ability to harm someone by giving them a particularly intense stare. You can translate it literally, but be aware that it does have that other meaning.

"Oremites" is a tough one. (Google won't help: though it does turn up the wonderful headline Oremites urged to help stop pesky bugs, it's referring to citizens of the city of Orem.) Probably the best way to translate it is as a compound of "ore" (metal that's mined from the ground) and "mites" (small biting bugs).

"Seep" is rarely a noun in English; it's a noun formed from the verb "to seep", so translate accordingly. ("One that seeps", perhaps, if that's an easy-to-form single word.)

"Waterskipper" is a made-up compound of "water" (duh) and "skipper" (in this sense, something that can "skip", which is to say travel lightly and easily across the surface of the water).

"Wraithwing" is similarly a made-up compound of "wing" (duh) and "wraith", an archaic word for "ghost".

---

I hope some of that helps people in translating. As a final word of advice: when in doubt, ask. Going to a dictionary of translations and taking the first word it suggests is how you end up with, well, bad translations. If a word is ambiguous in English, especially because it covers two different senses that your language distinguishes, ask which sense it evokes for English-speaking DROD players. ("In my native Etruscan, we have a verb that describes the slow movement of water and one that describes the slow movement of thicker liquids, both of which seem to be 'seep' in English. Which should I use?" That sort of thing.)
04-20-2012 at 08:20 AM
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Tahnan
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...as a followup: names. To be honest, I'd consult with the creators of DROD on that one. On the one hand, names generally wouldn't be translated (I'd be very confused by a biography of King Juan Carlos of Spain that referred to him as "John Charles"). On the other, you sometimes want a name that evokes a particular sense in the reader; thus, various translations of the names in Tintin.

I can't begin to guess what you'd do with "Beethro Budkin". But "Halph", for example, is similar to a couple of English names, "Hal" and "Ralph", so for all I know if you were translating into French, "Halph" would sound weird and foreign and German, while "Micharl" would sound like it's very nearly a name, and thus have a much closer effect to the intended one.

Moral of the story: translation is hard.
04-20-2012 at 08:28 AM
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skell
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Tahnan wrote: Moral of the story: translation is hard.
I'd rather say: Quality translation is hard. We had a hard time watching X-men with my girlfriend with Polish subtitles because, well, they have translated the mutant's names. So instead of Wolverine we had Rosomak (yea, that's 100% correct, but why didn't translate the movie title to X-Ludzie then...).

Anyhow all great points Tahnan, if you won't mind I will quote your post when sending people texts with some suggestions/ideas.

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[Last edited by skell at 04-20-2012 08:40 AM]
04-20-2012 at 08:39 AM
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Damien
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Thank you very much Tahnan for noting that translation is a skill in itself, few people (including translators' clients) seem to realize that. Knowing another language is never enough to be a good translator.

I'll just add that when it comes to translating, I would advise people to use dictionaries of synonyms rather than bilingual ones. Simple bilingual dictionaries only give you a rough translation, which is very rarely the best option available. When searching for synonyms (in the source and/or target language), you get more ideas, more insight into what you should aim for.

As a whole, my only piece of advice (coming from a humble professional) would be to strive to translate not the words, but their meaning. Never stick rigidly to the original grammar or words ; a good translation is one that reads well in the target language while retaining the sense of the source.

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04-20-2012 at 09:11 AM
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Keiya
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Tahnan wrote:
"Waterskipper" is a made-up compound of "water" (duh) and "skipper" (in this sense, something that can "skip", which is to say travel lightly and easily across the surface of the water).

Watterskipper should be your language's name for this family, if it has one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_strider

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04-20-2012 at 09:25 AM
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Syntax
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skell wrote:
Jatopian wrote:
I think the names should stay as they are just for the sake of clarity and future ability to easily reference the names on the forum. Just treat all the names as a proper noun.
Absolutely agreed. H&S could get interesting if we need to learn the translation of Roach in x different languages.

[Last edited by Syntax at 04-20-2012 01:24 PM]
04-20-2012 at 12:46 PM
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Syntax
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Jatopian wrote:
That is assuming she knows what sounds English letters make.
And listens and remembers etc Not sure it's the way to go
04-20-2012 at 12:48 PM
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trick
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I can probably help with a Norwegian translation.

[Last edited by trick at 04-20-2012 01:21 PM]
04-20-2012 at 01:19 PM
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I still don't think we're up against a huge issue here. We're looking at two broad cases:

One, LOTE players who know enough English to ask their question in this forum's lingua franca. They should be able to look up the original version's monster names on their own; and if they don't we'll simply use contextual clues to work out that "asphalt children" are tar babies.

Two, LOTE players who ask their question in their own language. They can only be holpen by members who share their language anyway; and the players looking for help can probably tell that they're limiting their options by their language choice.

Jatopian, Syntax ... I don't think I understand your "use case" here. Do you expect to be able to answer questions like
Ich verstehe nicht, nach welchen Regeln sich eine Roach Queen bewegt, wenn ein Brain im Spiel ist. Hat es einen Einfluss, ob noch andere Roaches in der Nähe sind?
04-20-2012 at 01:26 PM
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Syntax
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Yeah since I understand that but if you used a translation for Roach Queen (say) I'm afraid my vocabulary would not cover it.

I understand the case for translating them too but my initial thought was not to.
04-20-2012 at 01:32 PM
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Damien
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Translating a game often means you have to create specific support teams, forums, etc.
But the absolute priority is to make the game itself understandable, and that means, well, actually translating it. Then, if players have questions, they'll go to their favourite video games forum and ask there, because, as Znirk said, either they come here and don't need a translation in the first place, or they seek help somewhere else. And translating the game in the first place will mean that help will become more available in other places since the game will be played by non-English speakers.

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04-20-2012 at 02:25 PM
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skell
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Damien: this is only the case if you are a big company making big software. Everything else works just as you said - either they come to the creators using their language, or talk on the forums in the language they are familiar with :).

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04-20-2012 at 02:36 PM
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I can help with a swedish version.

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04-20-2012 at 03:08 PM
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Tahnan
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Syntax wrote:
Yeah since I understand that but if you used a translation for Roach Queen (say) I'm afraid my vocabulary would not cover it.
Oh, come on, seriously? Your vocabulary covers "welchen" and "bewegt" and "Einfluss", and your knowledge of German grammar is good enough to know how that sentence fits together, but you don't know "Schabe" and wouldn't be able to look it up?

If this is the case, I think you're in the vast minority. Znirk's basic point is correct: the fact that someone refers to "Schlammkinder" is going to be far and away the least of their barriers to getting help here. And thinking from their perspective, I can't imagine playing a game in English in which I'm fighting a Schlammkind and a Wasserläufer and a Reinemachefrau. (Or, well, maybe, in a game that's trying to capture the inherently German setting of the original. But there's no inherently English-speaking setting in the Eighth.)

[Note to skell: feel free to quote anything I said.]
04-20-2012 at 04:15 PM
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Dischorran
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I suspect for forum purposes (i.e. not the actual game translation), we can get by without too much trouble.

We did end up figuring out that "uterus" means "mud mother" in one particularly memorable case.

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04-20-2012 at 04:22 PM
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Lamkin
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Dischorran wrote:
We did end up figuring out that "uterus" means "mud mother" in one particularly memorable case.
Fixed. You forgot the http:// for your url. How dare you.
And there were two cases, dammit...although your example was funnier. :P
04-20-2012 at 05:25 PM
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This is what the Finnish ones could sound like. Pekka, what'cha think? :)

[Last edited by The Architest at 04-21-2012 07:32 AM]
04-20-2012 at 06:32 PM
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Briareos
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Kinda offtopic, but every time I see Finnish I have the nagging feeling that it's the one language that uses the most characters for any word and/or sentence...

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04-20-2012 at 09:15 PM
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Beethro Budkin
Brain = Hirn
Dugan
Eighth = Achtel
Evil Eye = Böses Auge (? - not a very good translation)
Force Arrow = Schubpfeil / Bewegungspfeil / Kraftpfeil / Richtungspfeil / Zwangpfeil - I'm not sure what will work best.
Hold = Feste (short version of stronghold (= Festung))
Orb = Kristallschalter (The orbs that raise and lower blocks in Zelda are called this way)
Roach = Schabe
Roach Queen = Schabenkönigin
Serpent = Bullschlange (from "Bulle" = bull, because they ram with their head). This would make them distinctable from the other two snakes, although there's still time before we need them: (Rattlesnake = Klapperschlange, Adder = Baumschlange (from "aufbäumen" -> to make itself larger, and because it's green) - because I don't know an older word for snake ("Schlange").
Spider = Spinne
Tar = Teer
Tar Baby = Teerbaby
Tar Mother = Teermutter
Trapdoor = Falltür
Wraithwing = Schreckschwinge (from "Schreck" = fear, because ghosts make fear and wraithwings fear you + "Schwingen" = wings)
Master Door = Tür der Meister (?)
Neather = I don't know .. - "Der Untere"?
Smitemaster = Hiebmeister, Schlitzmeister (from "Hieb"/"Schlitz" = slash + "meister" = master), or maybe Schlachtmeister (from "Schlachterei" - butchery)
Delver = Gräber (like in "Schatzgräber" (treasure seeker)) - maybe a word should be added in front of it?

My first ideas for German. Znirk, can you help? :)

[Last edited by Grizzly at 04-21-2012 06:21 AM]
04-20-2012 at 10:12 PM
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Beethro Budkin
Brain: Cervello
Dugan
Eighth: L'Ottavo
Evil Eye: Occhio malvagio
Force Arrow: Freccia-forza (best I could come up with)
Hold: Tenuta/Dominio
Orb: Sfera (literally sphere)
Roach: Blatta
Roach Queen: Blatta regina
Serpent: Serpente
Spider: Ragno
Tar: Melma
Tar Baby: Piccolo di melma
Tar Mother: Melma madre
Trapdoor: Botola
Wraithwing: Pipistrello

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04-20-2012 at 10:42 PM
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DyRsOfDh14
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This is my spanish list of translations

Click here to view the secret text


I'm still having issues with some words (like Trapdoor, briar stalwart, oremites, seep, etc), but these are the best translations I could find for most of them.
04-20-2012 at 11:14 PM
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The Architest
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Briareos wrote:
Kinda offtopic, but every time I see Finnish I have the nagging feeling that it's the one language that uses the most characters for any word and/or sentence...

Ha, might be. :) But really, all the words and sentences might be longer than the English ones but at same time, there is this certain kind of... poetry in it. I cannot describe it, but it is absolutely fantastic to spell and write these.

Spider's were known to be invisible and so, very dangerous.
Hämähäkkien tunnettiin olevan näkymättömiä ja samalla, hyvin vaarallisia.

04-21-2012 at 07:36 AM
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Damien
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Saxon and Scandinavian languages are brilliant, you can just make words up by lumping two or three together !
Latin ones are so inflexible, it's unfair...:?

Apart from that, if you want to discuss specific translations maybe you should create a new topic somewhere (possibly in Development).

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04-21-2012 at 09:00 AM
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DyRsOfDh14 wrote:
This is my spanish list of translations

...

I'm still having issues with some words (like Trapdoor, briar stalwart, oremites, seep, etc), but these are the best translations I could find for most of them.

I've have some alternative ideas for some of them (in blue):
Click here to view the secret text


I guess there are some Latin American Spanish vs Spain Spanish issues here, so I don't now how should we proceed since I am in no way an expert in "neutral" Spanish.

Another thing to discuss I think would be the use of capital letters. Except in proper nouns (Beethro, Eighth, ...) things should always be in lower case. I don't remember seeing "Roach Queen" in the game, but I might be wrong.
04-21-2012 at 09:43 AM
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