12th Archivist
Level: Smitemaster

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I have found that much of the population that dislikes DROD but is aware of its nature cannot formulate a reason as to why they hate it. This is what a member of this population said just a few minutes ago:

Anonymous: That game is so lame.
Me: Why? Why is it so lame?
Anonymous: It's a turn-based game! That's not cool!
Me: Yes, this is a puzzle game.
Anonymous: Puzzle games suck, dude. Seriously.

As you, the current reader of this post, can see, people do not like puzzle games or turn-based games. Although this information is clearly not new, I thought a direct reality-to-text quote would be helpful.

In a few hours, I will come back and discuss what I am saying more. A bit short on time at the moment. Honest!

____________________________
It was going well until it exploded.
~Scott Manley

Check out the DROD Wikia project here!

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[Last edited by 12th Archivist at 03-09-2011 02:35 PM]

Jatopian
Level: Smitemaster
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Thinking is hard. And a turn-based game waits for me to press more buttons before it'll entertain me some more! What good is a game that doesn't have the same pace as television?!

____________________________
DROD has some really great music.
Make your pressure plates 3.0 style!
DROD architecture idea generator

NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
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I've had a few people who've watched me play be turned off when I mention it is a puzzle game. Which has always annoyed me, because it doesn't feel like most other puzzle games. Any ideas of how to describe drod to the layperson without using puzzle game?

Rheb
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NiroZ wrote:
I've had a few people who've watched me play be turned off when I mention it is a puzzle game. Which has always annoyed me, because it doesn't feel like most other puzzle games. Any ideas of how to describe drod to the layperson without using puzzle game?

Yeah, I recognize that.

Me: "Well, you know... it's like err, a puzzle game you know? Maybe you've played a flash game or an iphone game where you push around blocks? - Yeah, it's kinda like that, but not really... you kill roaches! And it's turn based. But it's good! - No, really, it's really good, try it out!"

But for some reason they don't, or do but don't stick to it... :p

(My really bad attempts to get friends into DROD is made even harder because I don't know any Swedish term that fits "puzzle game". So I use the English term, and then tries to explain it.)

____________________________
Voligner is my very own DROD-like game. Please check it out!

NightSight
Level: Goblin
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I've had similar experiences when trying to get people to pick DROD up. I even managed to get someone interested by giving them an overview of the story, but when the phrase "puzzle game" came up they immediately stopped caring. Probably the best description I've heard for enticing a new player (can't remember where it's from) was something to the effect of: "It doesn't feel like a puzzle game, it feels like you're playing Gauntlet."

Thinking about it, though, I've only even attempted to convince a very small percentage of the people I know to play. Even if I think someone is open-minded enough to give it a shot, I feel like most people would quit the first time they got stuck on a level.

12th Archivist
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I have returned to this thread to talk about my experiences with DROD. Perhaps this is just a thinly-veiled attempt at complaining since I am not in a particularly cheery mood at the moment, but eh.

In my opinion, DROD is one of the most elitist games on the internet. To a certain degree, the Caravel community is elitist as well. This is not because of behavior -- the community tends to be a happy, supportive lot -- but actually due to skill. Most DROD holds, both official and unofficial, are incredibly difficult to the vast majority of the human population, including me. The Caravel community is basically a collection of part of that small remaining fraction of the human population. Because of the lack of variety in the skill of that fraction of people, the community alienates others from either joining or sticking around, perhaps more so than the sheer difficulty of the holds. See, it is not too bad to find oneself annoyed by a difficult hold -- they can just find another, easier one -- but it feels much worse when one sees how almost everyone else in the active community considered the hold to be remarkably fun and/or not too much of a challenge. This gives the impression that although the community might welcome the aforementioned example person, the community will never view that person as a true forum member, simply because that person cannot match anyone in the community in terms of intellect or imagination.

If the Caravel company wants to make more money, they can make an official hold that is less mentally demanding, which is already being done (or so I have heard). However, if the Caravel community wants to keep buyers in the forum, they must act less elitist. How should they go about this? Ugh... the opinions I have laid out are not held by everyone, so a change that would satisfy everyone would be most difficult indeed. I have no suggestions at this time on how to make the community appear less elitist, though there are ways I can think of to prevent me from getting angered at the community due to my own intellectual shortcomings. To prevent myself from making another one of these posts, I shall use of those ideas, but keep in mind, community, that I am probably not the only one that has felt this way.

EDIT: Chances are, I have left something important out or failed to support a vital detail. If I have, please alert me so I can explain my position better.

____________________________
It was going well until it exploded.
~Scott Manley

Check out the DROD Wikia project here!

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[Last edited by 12th Archivist at 03-12-2011 10:48 PM]

Dischorran
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12th Archivist wrote:
This gives the impression that although the community might welcome the aforementioned example person, the community that person will never view that person as a true forum member, simply because that person cannot match anyone in the community in terms of intellect or imagination.

Since I *am* in a good mood, I've given you a big honkin' clue there to the real issue here.

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Blondbeard
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12th Arcivist wrote:
In my opinion, DROD is one of the most elitist games on the internet. To a certain degree, the Caravel community is elitist as well. This is not because of behavior -- the community tends to be a happy, supportive lot -- but actually due to skill.

I think the forum is less elitist in that regard than you might think. To my mind we are very welcomming to the people who asks for help on practically every room. Another problem altogether is that the forum has atracted some rather fragile people, setting great pride in their intellect. Those people might not want to expose even a hint of subpar mental abilities. I know I was a bit reluctant to ask for hints in the begining. It's also a bit symptomatic how intelligent people sometimes states that they themselves are dumb in the H&S. Since this odd pride is real for some members you are right. It is a problem.

Basically this is what Dischorran says, but in more words.

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 03-13-2011 01:00 AM]

Ivcha Pivcha
Level: Delver

Rank Points: 80
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I think that is more of an issue DROD promotion.
Considering myself a hardcore gamer (played over
350 video games; finished 225 + of them),
discovered DROD accidentally looking for some
indie games after many years of gaming.
I’m certain that there are a lot of gamers that
would like to play it if only they somehow discover it.
E.g. Zelda is popular although it is a very hard game
(certainly not as some of DROD holds) it still
appeals to the masses. Sure there are some other
issues but I cannot emphasize enough how GOOD
PUBLICITY IS CRUCIAL FOR A SUCCESS of a video game.


____________________________
Never read books you aren't sure about . . . even supposing that these bad books are very well written from a literary point of view. Let me ask you this: Would you drink something you knew was poisoned just because it was offered to you in a golden cup? ~ St. John Bosco

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[Last edited by Ivcha Pivcha at 03-13-2011 12:32 PM : emphasizing]

igusarov
Level: Master Delver
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12th Archivist wrote:
See, it is not too bad to find oneself annoyed by a difficult hold -- they can just find another, easier one -- but it feels much worse when one sees how almost everyone else in the active community considered the hold to be remarkably fun and/or not too much of a challenge.

Whether someone considers the hold to be fun and/or of a challenge, mostly depends on his personal tastes. Some like mazes, others favour horde battles, there are adepts of time-restricted puzzles, die-hard optimizers of everything, admirers of fine details in monster behaviour, and so on. No wonder they would call their favourite-styled hold fun (and, perhaps, easy - because he'd completed many similar rooms). But why should I "feel worse" because of that? It's like feeling bad for not loving coffee (I don't)...

On topic: those friends of mine, who saw me playing DROD, were intrigued by it. Well, not exactly by "it". They were intrigued by the fact that I (a sane and sapient person in their opinion) can be so addicted to some game. However, when I try to show and explain the room I was playing, the things went like:

"Let's see, there's a moveable mirror and two connected fuses, but only one of them should fire the bomb, lest the room is unsolvable. If I pushed the mirror like this, it would move that way, but if I pushed it by sword rotation, it would move over there. And the bomb will set off another one, yet the orb will be triggered only once. Now, the zombie. It would prefer east direction here, and then turn clockwise, so we have two turns before he catches on..." At which point I usually see horror in his eyes: "Did you have to learn all that just to play a game?!"

The thing is... I don't have heart to say "this room is too difficult, let me load a simple hold and get you started with it". I feel this could hurt...

NightSight
Level: Goblin
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Registered: 10-22-2008
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When I say that I only try to convince a small number of people I know to try DROD, I don't mean to imply that I only think a few people would be capable of playing. I think anyone who is willing to be persistent could solve enough rooms to enjoy playing. I think a potential player has to be somewhat open-minded to want to give it a shot, if only because a lot of people won't even play a title with DROD's style of simple (but effective) graphics.

I think my chief difficulty in trying to get other people to play is encouraging that persistence. I have (numerous times) gotten so stuck on a level that I stopped playing for weeks/months at a time. Thinking back, I really can't explain why I didn't stop playing altogether the first time that happened. In just about any other game, if I got that stuck I might never play it again. Since I can't even explain why I kept playing, I can't really expect other people to.

I get what 12th Archivist is saying about DROD being elitist. While the community is very supportive (definitely one of DROD's strengths), at first I felt somewhat intimidated by my lack of skill compared to others. I don't think I'll ever make it through the difficult holds. It blows my mind that anyone can finish Beethro's Teacher (I don't think I've even solved a single room). I feel like most regular posters are far better at DROD than I am, and that did limit my interest in participating in the forum at first. I never felt like my opinion wouldn't be taken seriously because of it, though. One of the things that separates the DROD community from most game-based communities is that you don't see that kind of elitist behavior in the forum. I've never seen a forum post attacking "newbs" or making fun of people for an inability to solve a room. With some other games, I would expect to hear trash talk if I posted in a forum that I'm having trouble with it.

NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
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Rheb wrote:Yeah, I recognize that.

Me: "Well, you know... it's like err, a puzzle game you know? Maybe you've played a flash game or an iphone game where you push around blocks? - Yeah, it's kinda like that, but not really... you kill roaches! And it's turn based. But it's good! - No, really, it's really good, try it out!"

But for some reason they don't, or do but don't stick to it... :p

(My really bad attempts to get friends into DROD is made even harder because I don't know any Swedish term that fits "puzzle game". So I use the English term, and then tries to explain it.)

I think arcade game (like bomberman and digger) would be a suitable descriptor which isn't a ridiculous stretch of the truth.

west.logan
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A lot of gamers these days play to be entertained.

Not that it hasn't always been this way but it is in a different sort of way. In the beginning of gaming, games were hard and those who played them were persistent. There is a large breed of gamer now who just wants to be "spoon-fed" entertainment, almost like watching television. That's why you have games like "Flying Pigs" on the iPhone being among the most popular. A good portion of gamers just simply don't want to think, they want to be entertained.

DROD takes a good deal of persistence. Personally I found it extremely addicting and was always saying to myself "oh, I'll just take a quick peek at the next room and then go to bed..." and then get sucked into another battle of pitting my wits against the designer's.

It's a fantastic game, it's just not for those who want quick, easy entertainment. It takes a certain amount of dedication---something a good many people seem to be losing these days.

____________________________
-Logan

Snacko
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Then again you still get games like Tactics Ogre, Devil May Cry, Demon's Souls and Ninja Gaiden Sigma that are extremely difficult in very engaging ways and sell very well. I really think it's just that DROD is aimed at a very niche market and has little purely aesthetic value (not to deny the simple charm of the games' music and visuals).

____________________________
Director of the Department of Orderly Disruptions

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[Last edited by Snacko at 03-18-2011 12:52 PM]

Rat Man
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west.logan wrote:
A lot of gamers these days play to be entertained.

Not that it hasn't always been this way but it is in a different sort of way. In the beginning of gaming, games were hard and those who played them were persistent. There is a large breed of gamer now who just wants to be "spoon-fed" entertainment, almost like watching television. That's why you have games like "Flying Pigs" on the iPhone being among the most popular. A good portion of gamers just simply don't want to think, they want to be entertained.

DROD takes a good deal of persistence. Personally I found it extremely addicting and was always saying to myself "oh, I'll just take a quick peek at the next room and then go to bed..." and then get sucked into another battle of pitting my wits against the designer's.

It's a fantastic game, it's just not for those who want quick, easy entertainment. It takes a certain amount of dedication---something a good many people seem to be losing these days.

Uh... I'm afraid I have a fundamental disagreement with you on this one. I agree with the gist of what you were saying but I disagree about "entertainment". To entertain yourself is to do something that you enjoy for your own enjoyment. And there are three reasons for playing DROD that I can think of off the top of my head: A) you enjoy it B) you want to exercise your brain or C) for its artistic value. I think for most DRODers (myself included) it's a combination of the three, and for me, it's mostly about the fact that I enjoy it, so I do it for entertainment. I enjoy a challenge. I am entertained by things that make me think and are difficult.

____________________________
I'M IN SPACE!

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[Last edited by Rat Man at 03-18-2011 03:46 PM]

Jatopian
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Yeah, but that's you. This thread is about why it doesn't appeal to the masses.

____________________________
DROD has some really great music.
Make your pressure plates 3.0 style!
DROD architecture idea generator

Rat Man
Level: Master Delver
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Well I guess you could say that, but my point is that DRODers play for entertainment too. You can do something for entertainment that isn't mindless.

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Rat Man
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NiroZ wrote:
I've had a few people who've watched me play be turned off when I mention it is a puzzle game. Which has always annoyed me, because it doesn't feel like most other puzzle games. Any ideas of how to describe drod to the layperson without using puzzle game?

Ya know what I always do about things like that? I always either A) bend the truth and act like it completely defies genre or B) make up a term for it, preferably the word for "puzzle" in another language. I tried that on my friend who is biased against puzzles, and he loved it and he came to me recently saying, "dude, can you believe the guys on the Internet are calling this a puzzle game? Just because it makes you think like Zelda doesn't mean it's all puzzles!" To this, I said, "There aren't enough games like this for it to be recognized as an official genre."

It only works on idiots, but then again, only idiots say puzzles suck. DROD might even do some good; studies have shown that puzzles make people better at math and stuff. But it probably won't do them any good, since they'll be the ones who always look up the answers online!

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Snacko
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I think Erik has classified it as a "stepping game" in the past.

EDIT: Like here.

____________________________
Director of the Department of Orderly Disruptions

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[Last edited by Snacko at 03-19-2011 01:16 AM]

Rat Man
Level: Master Delver
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Great! "Stepping game" will work even better!!!

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Briareos
Level: Smitemaster

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Snacko wrote:
I think Erik has classified it as a "stepping game" in the past.

Right, but I'm pretty sure "the masses" will rather think of Dance Dance Revolution or some descendant thereof when they hear "stepping game"...

np: Pink Floyd - Waiting For The Worms (The Wall (Disc 2))

____________________________
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R.I.P. Robert Feldhoff (1962-2009)

Rat Man
Level: Master Delver
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That's another good point. There's got to be some way to increase popularity, though. We've got to just keep trying clever words and other sneaky sneakish tricks.

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Jatopian
Level: Smitemaster
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It would help if TCB had been advertised. Like, at all.

____________________________
DROD has some really great music.
Make your pressure plates 3.0 style!
DROD architecture idea generator

Rat Man
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 121
Registered: 07-10-2010
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Yeah, that might have gotten us some more popularity. I dunno...

You guys at Caravel should really consider spending some money to advertise on a couple game sites for TSS!

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I'M IN SPACE!

Snacko
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TCB was squarely marketed at fans, which is a shame because it means you can't really sell many copies.

I remember JtRH had some advertising and I believe it had a great deal more commercial success.

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Director of the Department of Orderly Disruptions

Rat Man
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Oh, the injustice!!! TCB is twice as polished and appealing to the masses as JTRH!

By the way, I think DROD RPG has more appeal to the masses, and if they make a second one, they should really advertise it because it could be a gateway to more popularity. Hey, is DROD on Steam? If not, that could REALLY do us some good!

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MHighbrow
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Rat Man wrote:
Oh, the injustice!!! TCB is twice as polished and appealing to the masses as JTRH!

Not sure about "appealing to the masses" - TCB definitely assumes familiarity with previous DROD titles, including the Smitemaster's Selections. (I remember being confused by references to Jobus and Denfry the first time I played TCB, not realising that some of the Selections were canonical.) TCB introduces a lot of its returning elements in kind of a rush - the Oremite Breeding Grounds introduce brains at the same time as oremites as a level element, and even with the brief tutorial given a lot of new players might flounder dealing with two new ideas at once.

I agree it's more polished, but it wouldn't be a good starting point for "the masses".

Rat Man wrote:
Hey, is DROD on Steam? If not, that could REALLY do us some good!

I remember hearing rumblings about this in an Illumination somewhere - any updates on this?

Rat Man
Level: Master Delver
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So true. It shouldn't be so hard to follow a small, indie game. DROD RPG is easier to follow, I think, but I haven't really played it. Just the demo. I don't have any money so my best bet for getting it any time soon is winning it from the Prize Pile.

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I'M IN SPACE!

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[Last edited by Rat Man at 03-28-2011 08:17 PM]

west.logan
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Rat Man wrote:
Uh... I'm afraid I have a fundamental disagreement with you on this one. I agree with the gist of what you were saying but I disagree about "entertainment"...

I'm not sure you understood what I meant by "entertainment" (I tried to describe it earlier). I also play for entertainment and I'm sure most people do. The "entertainment" I see most people engaging in are things that are not challenging, but are diverting. Television, mindless flash games, popping bubbles on their cell phone---in general a lot of folks I know want things handed to them and anything challenging just becomes an impatient frustration. Certainly not with everyone, but DROD would have been a lot more popular with a early 90's crowd than a early 10's crowd: we just get way too much instant gratification these days.

____________________________
-Logan

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[Last edited by west.logan at 04-25-2011 07:28 PM]

Rat Man
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Oh, I forgot to mention that shortly after I posted, I realized that it was stupid and I was just arguing over the definition of the word.

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