Announcement: Be excellent to each other.


Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Bugs : Discussion on the "bridge trick" requested. (...)
1
Page 2 of 2
New Topic New Poll Post Reply
Poster Message
Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Discussion on the "bridge trick" requested. (0)  
stigant wrote:
Same thing with the 4-corner tar growth. It's unexpected, but any room which requires knowledge of it will make the quirk obvious at the first spawn cycle without the player having to do anything special.

Ehh... No! It was not obvious in that particular room. In fact it was a crazy scheme that required a LOT of work to even try.
05-11-2012 at 05:05 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
stigant
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1182
Registered: 08-19-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Discussion on the "bridge trick" requested. (0)  
Ehh... No! It was not obvious in that particular room. In fact it was a crazy scheme that required a LOT of work to even try.
Which room are you talking about?

____________________________
Progress Quest Progress
05-11-2012 at 06:33 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
mxvladi
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 2505
Registered: 02-11-2008
IP: Logged
icon Re: Discussion on the "bridge trick" requested. (+2)  
I believe he is talking about Don't Kill the Messenger: Messenger 3: Entrance.

That's not the only room that uses 4-corner tarstuff growth trick, though, but it was the first one to do so, I think. And the trick is definetily *not* easy to discover there.(with that said, my personal opinion is that discovering it was a lot of fun in that room)

EDIT: While I'm here, I guess I should say that my opinion regarding the bridge issue is similar to Trickster's/PMIT's/Rheb's. Just sayin' - I don't think this quirk was particulary unintuitive.

[Last edited by mxvladi at 05-11-2012 08:16 PM]
05-11-2012 at 06:41 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Schik
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 5383
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: Discussion on the "bridge trick" requested. (+2)  
What makes sense and what doesn't is pretty subjective. As such, you're kinda subject to the whims of the dev team and what they think is okay-weird vs. buggy-weird.

To compare the tar oddity to the bridge oddity from a dev point of view: There's no extra code to make the tar grow in that 2x2 square, but you would need extra code to prevent it - it seems more like an unexpected quirk than a bug. Tar tries to grow in all 4 of those squares. Does it form a solid mass of tar? Yes. Okay. The bridge oddity was more of a programmer error: Checking for pits around the bridge, we checked for pits but simply forgot to check for platforms *IN* pits.

It comes down to something behaving in a way we didn't anticipate, or something behaving in a way we didn't intend.

____________________________
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals.
--Mahatma Gandhi
05-11-2012 at 08:00 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores Quote Reply
TFMurphy
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3118
Registered: 06-11-2007
IP: Logged
icon Re: Discussion on the "bridge trick" requested. (+4)  
Just as a reminder, with the currently released version, it is possible to have a room with just Pit, Pit Platforms and Pit Trapdoors, without a hint of water at all, and cause a bridge in that room to fall into water. That's the logical ramifications of this trick taken to its extreme, and it's not a behavior that can really be explained away as anything but "that's what happens".

On top of that, there are also possible graphical artifacts that can occur when a bridge (which is drawn as hovering over pit, even if you can't see that pit because it's surrounded by non-pit tiles) turns into water. So it was not only highly unintuitive in some cases, but it could *look* bad too.

Changing it so that Pit Platforms are considered Pit for the purposes of bridges dropping is not just the most intuitive change to fix both of these issues, it's the *easiest*, and least likely to need further maintenance.

And please don't use the "there are other unintuitive things in DROD" argument. We already know there are. I hate how Stalwarts/Halph/Slayer Wisps pathfind, since it's impossible to predict which of two equally valid tiles will actually be chosen. And yes, some of the ways monsters work are arcane (like all the differences there are with brained goblins vs other brained monsters). But we can't touch most of these things, because they've been around for so long and affect *so* many rooms.

You'll also note that we *have* changed how the game works in the past. We just finished the 3.3 Hold Update, and we'll be starting the leadup to the 4.0 Hold Update fairly shortly. I've mentioned that we have a good deal of criteria we need to think through before we change something, and yes, some of that is based on how a feature 'feels' to us, which is by no means something that we always agree on (remember the Mimic/Mirror stuff?) But just because other more unintuitive stuff are entrenched in the game and won't ever change doesn't mean we should leave in every other lesser (but still) unintuitive thing.

===

Incidentally, touching on the tar oddity... as Schik half notes, there's no easy way to change that. Sure, we could make it that all new stable Tarstuff has to be connected to existing Tar... that would solve the problem, right? Except... Gel already does that, and guess what happens with this configuration of gel when it grows:
gggggggg
gggGGggg
ggg##ggg      g = Gel
gg#..#gg      G = Gel Mother
gg#...gg      # = Wall
ggg#.ggg      . = Floor
gggggggg
gggggggg

So we've got a trick that is complicated to fix in the code, is used prominently in a number of published rooms, and strictly speaking, is based off a rule that doesn't inherently have any unintuitive exceptions. All things that make it difficult and not worthwhile to change.
05-11-2012 at 08:34 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Jutt
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 863
Registered: 06-29-2007
IP: Logged
icon Re: Discussion on the "bridge trick" requested. (+2)  
I clearly explained that specific tarstuff behavior in AC2, so I don't want to hear anyone complaining about it. :glare


____________________________
Holds: An Architects Audition, Artful Architecture, Salamander, Elusive Exhibitions, Leftover Levels, Six Times Six
Collaborative: Way Forward, Advanced Concepts 2
Styles/Mods: Basalt, Sandstone, Garden, Clock using game elements
05-11-2012 at 11:39 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Visit Homepage Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Syntax
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1218
Registered: 05-12-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Discussion on the "bridge trick" requested. (+1)  
Oh how I miss KDD - one roach, one sword, one result :)
05-19-2012 at 04:29 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
1
Page 2 of 2
New Topic New Poll Post Reply
Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Bugs : Discussion on the "bridge trick" requested. (...)
Surf To:


Forum Rules:
Can I post a new topic? No
Can I reply? No
Can I read? Yes
HTML Enabled? No
UBBC Enabled? Yes
Words Filter Enable? No

Contact Us | CaravelGames.com

Powered by: tForum tForumHacks Edition b0.98.8
Originally created by Toan Huynh (Copyright © 2000)
Enhanced by the tForumHacks team and the Caravel team.