TFMurphy
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TCB introduces how these two elements work together and demonstrates how you can use a Power Token to allow a different Player Role to enter and use Tunnels.

Unfortunately, what it doesn't tell you is that this is not really necessary. It's not the Power Token that grants you this ability... it's the fact that the monsters are chasing you down. So the only necessary condition is that you do something to cause that: for example, killing a monster in the room personally.

This feels unintuitive, and is something I'd like to fix. But before I go about submitting code (it wouldn't be a difficult fix, anyhow), I'd like to check: is anyone aware of any holds that is mistakenly using this interaction? That is, allowing a Player Role to use Tunnels without a Power Token?

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[Last edited by TFMurphy at 01-06-2011 06:40 AM]

Banjooie
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Is there..anything you can do with a power token that you can't do by killing a monster?


I /think/ maybe controlling fegundos but

Rabscuttle
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Hitting orbs by bumping them.

TFMurphy
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Banjooie wrote:
Is there..anything you can do with a power token that you can't do by killing a monster?

Activating a Power Token allows you to do the following:
* Light fuses
* Drop trapdoors (providing you have a sword)
* Drink Invisibility, Speed and Clone Potions
* Walk over Mimic and Decoy Potions (but only Beethro can drink these)
* Activate Orbs with your body (note that Beethro cannot do this normally)
* Control Fegundos (note that Beethro cannot do this normally)

It also causes you to become the target of all monsters. Stabbing a monster gives you none of the above abilities, but *does* allow you to enter tunnels. Only the following player roles can enter a tunnel without having to stab a monster first (or otherwise become a monster target): Beethro, Stalwarts, Clones and Decoys. So, yes, compared to all of the above abilities, the ability to enter tunnels *is* an exception to the rules.

Anyways, CSR has informed me that there's at least one published hold that would break if this was fixed, which makes this a bit more sticky. It *is* an easy bug to fix, but if we do fix it, then we'll have to update holds to compensate, which is always a bit messy. (Not that this is the only bugfix that we'll have to hold update around whenever the patch finally goes official....)

So I'll leave this topic be for another week or so, to collect a few more opinions on the subject or word from high on what I should do with it.

Dischorran
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Monster player roles don't light fuses without power tokens? That's interesting, and potentially useful...

Anyway, I agree that the tunnel behavior is a darned strange exception and would likely be worth having to fix up one or two rooms.

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CuriousShyRabbit
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I apologize to be the voice of dissent, as I know how hard you work on fixing up bugs.

This behavior has existed for 4 years. It doesn't cause game crashes. It doesn't corrupt save files. It doesn't cause other really weird behavior, such as pressing undo and ending up being eaten by a roach. Some players and architects have known about it for a long time. Some DROD behavior is indeed quirky, but for 4 years, nobody has thought this quirky enough to even post about it. I simply learned it with the rest of the game.

Most DROD players don't post on the forum. They just play holds. This game has an incredible quantity and variety of good user-made levels. There are more than 400 holds on the Holds board that work in the current version of the game engine. IMO, that Holds board is our greatest asset, it keeps players coming back, and we need to protect it.

Broken holds are not always easy to fix. The one published hold that's currently broken has been waiting for 2.5 years, as it's not possible to duplicate the original intended game behavior with the current game engine. If tunnel behavior changes, the new broken rooms will fall into this category.

Lists of rooms that will be broken by proposed changes are not easy to make. Right now, you're just going off of a Rabbit who lost all her data, and is replaying a couple holds. While the Caravel server stores a vast number of demos that could be used to identify the effects of game changes, apparently no one is able or willing to make a test spider that would collect this information. So at this point, the number of rooms that would be affected by the proposed change is unknown. If we break an unknown number of holds, we won't be able to say that all the holds on the holds board work. We won't be able to flag the ones that need fixing. And it will take me a Really Long Time to go through all of them again by hand.

I vote NO CHANGES THAT BREAK HOLDS, especially in this case of such a minor nitpicky detail about player roles using tunnels.

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[Last edited by CuriousShyRabbit at 01-29-2011 09:44 AM]

RoboBob3000
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I think that it's more important to get the platform right than the content. Always striving for backwards compatibility is just going to limit the devs in the future. The Fool's Errand is a notable casualty to change, but I think the change that nerfed that hold was an extremely welcome change to the platform.

Out of curiosity, what is the broken hold you're referring to? What is the behavior in question?

That said, I do think that CSR is right in bringing up the notion of using the spider as a method of test automation. How long does it take the spider to run 20000 rooms? Take all the #1 demos and run them (as well as say, CSR's player file/demos to tackle the non-scorable rooms and rooms that require multiple passes) and record Conquer/Die/Incomplete/Passing-Through. Run the demos on a system both before and after the change is applied. Run a script that compares the results on both versions. This alone should get you a great list of affected rooms, with a couple of false-positives here and there.

Has this already been attempted? What are the hang-ups to attempting this? Hardware? Man-hours? This actually sounds like a semi-interesting project to me - I wouldn't mind taking a crack at it if provided the right information.

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[Last edited by RoboBob3000 at 01-29-2011 06:37 PM]

Syntax
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I agree with RoboBob3000 on this one.

The engine should be consistent. If that means back-fixing data, then so be it... Obviosuly, I also agree the holds should be beatable so if fixing them really isn't an option then it's a different matter but it seems to me that changing a broken room (or replacing it with an empty one, say) doesn't seem like a big challenge...

Jatopian
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I find that the Syntax is correct.

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Schik
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RoboBob3000 wrote:
That said, I do think that CSR is right in bringing up the notion of using the spider as a method of test automation.

Has this already been attempted? What are the hang-ups to attempting this? Hardware? Man-hours?

The issue was man-hours, but I took some time and added a tool for the HAs to be able to check any high scores with the latest and greatest code before it's released to the public.

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TFMurphy
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Thanks to Schik's Test Spider, I have a list of CaravelNet rooms that have demos in the Top #5 that would be broken by the change. They are as follows:

The Mining Business : Worlds : All rooms
Only 1E had a broken demo in the Top #5, but I note that all rooms have the danger of this: there's a tunnel in the Builder area that can be used to escape if you head in there. You never need to head in there though.

An Aumtlich's Quest : Hourglass Stronghold : 2W
This requires the use of a tunnel to complete. Since you have to kill a Stalwart first, placing a Power Token under the Stalwart would fix this. This hold would need updating.

39th Guard -1- Silent Cliff : Rocky Mountains : 2N
Again, this requires the use of a tunnel to conquer the room. Since you're not forced to stab a monster before reaching the tunnels, this is slightly harder to fix. However, all current demos can be preserved at the very least by adding Power Tokens at (3,13) and (25,13). This hold would also need updating.

Empire's power : The slayer vats : The Artiminy : 4S
The room can be completed without touching the Power Token in this room, but most demos do start on the Power Token.

war15 : try : 3S
This room has a backtracking issue where after heading through the tunnel, you are turned into a non-tunnel using Player Role. Due to the way the room is setup, you can either exit to the west or the east, but if you go east, you must Restore (since you can't turn back to Beethro). If you head west, you can never return to the east (because the room will turn you to a Player Role and completing the room leaves no extra monsters to allow you through tunnels).

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So, I could only find two holds that would require Hold Updates if this change was made. I will note though that the Test Spider can only check victory demos. Whilst that is sufficient in most cases for this change, any hold that creates respawning monsters through scripting, or requires that you leave a room unfinished in order to traverse it, may still be affected.

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[Last edited by TFMurphy at 02-14-2011 10:32 PM]