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TFMurphy
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icon AE Holds in a 4.x World (+10)  
Since people have still been building holds in AE, and also considering that people are playing both those and older holds in later versions of DROD, it seems like it would be useful to go over the changes that occur when you play an AE hold outside of AE itself. I'll split this into two main types of changes: Architectural Changes (how the hold looks) and Behavioral Changes (how the hold plays).



1 - Architectural Changes

Architects' Edition
Click here to view the secret text

AE has 9 official styles. In the picture above, these are Cavern (NW), Cliffs (N), Slime (NE), Voids (W), Ice (Center), Lava (E), Palace (SW), Catacombs (S) and Sanctum (SE). The picture shows how several elements in a room change their appearance as different styles are used.

Pits, Walls, Floor, Obstacles and Force Arrows have the most striking differences between styles. Stairs tend to just change color, and Trapdoors are pretty much identical *except* in Lava where they're a dull brown color instead. All other tiles in AE do not change between styles.

Importing into JtRH/TCB
When you import an AE hold into one of the later versions, several graphical changes must occur. For starters, JtRH only has 3 styles, and TCB has the same three styles plus another three for 6 total. And now, GatEB has all six previous styles plus yet another three for a total of 9. These styles are very different from the original AE.

JtRH introduced 3 styles: Foundation, Deep Spaces and Iceworks. TCB added 3 more: Aboveground, City and Fortress. And GatEB has a final 3: Beach, Forest and Swamp. The same room in AE looks markedly different in these updated versions.

When you import a room that uses a particular AE style, that style is mapped to one of the new styles. This is done as follows:

Cavern ----> Foundation
Cliffs ----> Deep Spaces
Slime -----> Iceworks (JtRH), Aboveground (TCB/GatEB)
Voids -----> Deep Spaces (JtRH/TCB), Swamp (GatEB)
Ice -------> Iceworks
Lava ------> Foundation (JtRH), Aboveground (TCB), Forest (GatEB)
Palace ----> Deep Spaces (JtRH), City (TCB/GatEB)
Catacombs -> Foundation (JtRH), City (TCB), Beach (GatEB)
Sanctum ---> Iceworks (JtRH), Fortress (TCB/GatEB)


Incidentally, there is another mapping if the hold is a 2.x file that was originally imported from AE. The original style IDs are kept in JtRH, and are mapped slightly differently in later versions of DROD as a result:
Cavern ----> Foundation
Cliffs ----> Deep Spaces
Slime -----> Iceworks
Voids -----> Deep Spaces -----> Swamp (GatEB)
Ice -------> Iceworks --------> Forest (GatEB)
Lava ------> Foundation ------> Aboveground (TCB/GatEB)
Palace ----> Deep Spaces -----> City (TCB/GatEB)
Catacombs -> Foundation ------> City (TCB), Beach (GatEB)
Sanctum ---> Iceworks --------> Fortress (TCB/GatEB)


Finally, it pays to remember that people who play using the demo versions of JtRH and TCB will see all their holds in the Foundation style when playing JtRH and City when playing TCB. The demo version of GatEB - on the other hand - has three styles included: City, Aboveground and Forest. In this case, the remaining six styles will all map to City in the GatEB demo.

Changes to Detail
On top of the above, there are a few subtle changes that occur as the style and the hold is updated which may also cause differences to the hold's aesthetics.

Obstacles: When an AE hold is imported into a later version of DROD, any Obstacle tiles in the room that share their tile with objects that could not co-exist outside of AE - for example, Tar on an Obstacle - will be converted into Walls. All remaining Obstacles and parts of Obstacles are then replaced with 2x2 and 1x1 Obstacles, randomly using the two different rock obstacle types throughout the room. This random choice is done once when you import the hold. If the hold is deleted and then reimported, which rocks are used for which obstacles will likely be different. 1x1 Obstacles will only be used to fill in gaps though, so you should only see them if a part of an Obstacle was indeed replaced with Wall.

Light/Dark Squares: Each style has its own configuration of light/dark squares - some have a light square at (0,0), whilst others have a dark square at (0,0) instead. Only the following listed AE styles will not swap the light/dark tile locations when played in the indicated game versions:
JtRH Demo: Lava
TCB Demo: All except Lava
JtRH Full: Slime, Ice, Lava, Sanctum
TCB Full: Ice, Lava, Palace, Catacombs
This may be important if the hold relies on light/dark squares being in certain places. Note that no official style leaves the squares untouched throughout all versions, but Ice is the safest style to use since the only version it won't stay the same in is the JtRH Demo.

Open Doors: Do note that in AE and JtRH, Red, Blue and Green Doors vanish when opened, leaving floor tiles behind. This does not occur in TCB, allowing open doors to remain visible.



2 - Behavioral Changes

There are not only differences in architecture and graphics between AE and the latest versions of DROD. There are also some major changes in the way certain elements interact. Some of these were bugs that were fixed in later versions, whilst others were conscious design changes. This may not be a complete list, but it should cover the more important points.


Spiders
Spiders in AE were designed for the Palace style only, in that their color made them completely invisible on dark tiles in that style, unless you happened to catch them blinking.

In JtRH and TCB, in order to make their difference more general, they are now always visible if they have moved last turn, or if you are within two squares of them. As such, the style they are used on does not matter.


Brains
In AE 1.67, there is a bug with brain pathmaps, such that if Beethro walks over a Force Arrow, then the brain will be allowed to plot a valid route through it to Beethro, no matter which direction the arrow faces. Note that the brain won't be able to tell the difference between different Force Arrow directions, so this can often result in enemies being directed into dead-ends. This bug also applies to Closed Doors (if Beethro is standing on a door that was closed, it will be considered a valid path until it is opened and closed again), Scrolls, and even Trapdoors that used to have Scrolls or Force Arrows on them. This bug was fixed in JtRH onwards, and a brain will never deliberately send a roach over a Force Arrow in those versions.


Brained Serpents
Brained serpents in AE will never be asked by the brain to Wait: that is, the only options they will consider are N, W, E and S, with that priority.

Whilst this is still true in JtRH onwards, the brain now also throws away all paths that are *farther* away from the target than the distance given for Waiting. Of course, if the square the monster is on is a Brain-Invisible Obstacle, then Waiting will have no score and so this isn't a problem. And most AE monsters will, when ordered to Wait, just do an unbrained move. However, Serpents were never ordered to Wait, but the brain will now refuse to give them paths it considers to be more distant than waiting. So a Serpent is forced to make an unbrained move now in that situation.

In short, JtRH Serpents will essentially behave as if they were ordered to Wait and make an unbrained move like other monsters do, and unlike their behavior in AE where they could make a brained move even if it took them farther away.


Standing on Serpents
If the player enters a room onto a square that originally contains a Serpent's head, then in AE, that Serpent will be deleted. In JtRH and TCB, however, a Serpent's head acts as an obstacle that prevents room entry, just like the rest of a Serpent's body.


Revisiting Levels
Whenever you use a staircase in AE, the completion status of all rooms on the level you just left is reset. If you later return to this level, or even if you just take a staircase to an entrance elsewhere on the level, all rooms on that level will no longer be completed, causing all green and blue doors to reset.

[Last edited by TFMurphy at 04-02-2012 04:26 AM]
10-29-2010 at 02:26 AM
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coppro
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icon Re: AE Holds in a 3.x World (+1)  
It's worth noting that I long ago submitted a patch allowing you to configure in drod.ini what style would be used to override the AE styles. The intent was to allow playing AE-era holds with newer styles that more closely matched the originals than the ones in TCB. I believe there has also been at least one attempt to replicate the original styles in newer DROD versions, but I forget how those efforts went.

To my knowledge, this patch has not made it into the full version of DROD. I could probably track it down somewhere on this site.
10-29-2010 at 11:04 AM
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Jutt
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icon Re: AE Holds in a 3.x World (+2)  
Some relevant links for getting the AE styles in TCB:

Coppro's patch
AE Styles converted for TCB

I don't know if there is an easy way to combine both projects into one, but that would be pretty neat.

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Holds: An Architects Audition, Artful Architecture, Salamander, Elusive Exhibitions, Leftover Levels, Six Times Six
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10-29-2010 at 02:09 PM
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coppro
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icon Re: AE Holds in a 3.x World (0)  
Jutt wrote:
Some relevant links for getting the AE styles in TCB:

Coppro's patch
AE Styles converted for TCB

I don't know if there is an easy way to combine both projects into one, but that would be pretty neat.
Well, if you had a version of DROD with that installed, it would be fairly easy to install the styles and have it use them.

I don't know if it would work well to go at it automatically, but it certainly could be done to have DROD change the default styles and then bundle the AE styles in - that's not my call, though.

[Last edited by coppro at 10-29-2010 06:33 PM]
10-29-2010 at 06:30 PM
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Timo006
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icon Re: AE Holds in a 3.x World (0)  
coppro wrote:
Jutt wrote:
Some relevant links for getting the AE styles in TCB:

Coppro's patch
AE Styles converted for TCB

I don't know if there is an easy way to combine both projects into one, but that would be pretty neat.
Well, if you had a version of DROD with that installed, it would be fairly easy to install the styles and have it use them.

I don't know if it would work well to go at it automatically, but it certainly could be done to have DROD change the default styles and then bundle the AE styles in - that's not my call, though.

Don't forget that this would mess a bit with KDD 2.0, since the styles from the secret rooms were selected from DROD 2.0, and would therefore not convert.

An example of this situation already occurs, notice the style difference between the style of level 7 versus the level 7 secret room in DROD 3.0.

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10-29-2010 at 08:19 PM
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Xitax
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icon Re: AE Holds in a 3.x World (+1)  
Hi folks, I've played a bit of DROD back in the day, and recently revived some interest, and am playing through TCB right now.

Remembering back to the Webfoot version, for some kind of nostalgia, I also think it would be pretty cool if I could import some of the older holds (including KDD) using the old styles into TCB.

I could do several installs, but I'm just nitpicky that way - I want all my DROD stuff in one package... now, I've read through the posts above, but can't make any sense of Coppro's patch. Can anyone clue me in as to how I might use it?

Thanks!
01-05-2011 at 05:59 AM
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Tuttle
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icon Re: AE Holds in a 3.x World (+3)  
To apply a patch like that you need to recompile the game from scratch. Note that you'll lose the CaravelNet features when running a customised build, so you'll probably just end up switching between Real-TCB and Custom-TCB instead of TCB and AE. Anyhow:

The source code is available here: http://www.caravelgames.com/sourcecode.html

As a very first step you'd want to convince yourself that you can compile it as-is. When you get stuck, have a look through the Development forum for help.

Once you're satisfied with that, you need to change the source files as described in coppro's .patch file. It's written for a *nix tool called "patch", but unfortunately that file was written for the 3.0 source, and it only contains the line numbers to change (without any surrounding context), so the odds of it applying correctly to the 3.2 source are very low. You could probably figure out which block goes where and do it yourself without too much effort though. (The numbers are line numbers, the a/c/d stand for add/change/delete. The > and < markings indicate the lines to be added/removed.)

That might be a whole lot more effort than you were planning on, but it's feasible if you want to do it.

[Last edited by Tuttle at 01-05-2011 10:55 AM]
01-05-2011 at 08:50 AM
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Xitax
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icon Re: AE Holds in a 3.x World (0)  
Oh well, probably too much for me right now. Thanks, though :thumbsup
01-07-2011 at 02:29 AM
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TFMurphy
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icon Re: AE Holds in a 3.x World (+2)  
The mechanic of brains asking monster to Wait is covered in Advanced Concepts. In general, it covers the situation where the brain has gone through the available moves of the monster, and has suggested Wait as a valid move that will keep the monster closest to Beethro. (Often when all other valid moves have been rejected by the monster due to obstacles.)

http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=7422 is the original bug report on the subject of AE Serpents, but at the time, it was misdiagnosed as pathmapping through serpent heads (which happened in AE anyways). Here's a sample room based on the bug hold:

             s
             s
             s
 ############S
 #    B     #
            #
 ############


Now, if we replace 's' (Snake Body) with a Wall, then a Roach at the position of 'S' (Snake Head) would have the following options: NW (19 squares away from Beethro), NE (21 squares away from Beethro), Wait (20 squares), E (21), S (21), SE (21). The brain would naturally offer NW first because it's the shortest.

Put back the snake, and things are different. First, we can't offer the snake any diagonal moves, even though we're still pathfinding through them. That gives the following options: Wait (20), E (21), S(21). In AE, the Brain would not offer Wait, and so would offer E as the highest priority move. So in AE, the snake would always move east in this situation.

In JtRH and above, it works differently. Now while there's a few subtleties in exactly how the brain decides what orders to give and what to discount, we can explain it easiest by not going through exactly what the code is doing, and saying that the brain is dealing with serpents just like how it deals with normal monsters: it can now order a snake to Wait. And for normal monsters, an order to Wait causes them to make an unbrained move, which is exactly what the snake does now.

So that means on turns 0-4/10-14/20-14/etc., it would move E (just like it would in AE, since a brained move E would take priority over a brained move S of equal distance), but on turns 5-9/15-19/20-19/etc., it would move S instead (vertical preference).

Again, for more information on all this, you really should play Advanced Concepts.
02-18-2012 at 11:01 PM
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