Syntax
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Hi mxvladi,

I've attached a few of your demos in Puppet Master as examples.

Please explain why the speed is so much faster and fluid/rhythmic than demos of other players. These are just examples - most of your demos though, if watched at normal speed, show what I consider proof that you are not playing DROD as per the rules. Nobody plays at that cadence.

I respect the fact you can accomplish some great #1s but it looks to me you can either chain sections or auto-replay a section of moves. It could also be the case that you're using a UU patch for some of the actual slower "human" sections you play. Maybe you have a solver program for certain sections which are replayed back automatically.

In any case, that is cheating.

Spending hours optimising a room just to see it taken away through external mods is against the spirit of DROD. As players, you are wasting people's time and destroying the benefit of Caravel.

I expect a full explanation and a promise to desist. I also propose that you give up all #1s (and other scores) which are 50% faster than the 2nd place demo. Consistently seeing 15 second demos compared to top 5 avg of over a minute must mean you're using external tools.

As before, the demos attached are just examples. Almost every demo I have seen of yours follows a similar "mechanical" sequence (certainly not natural).

Disappointedly yours,

Syntax

Blondbeard
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Let me just state that I really hope this does not become a conflict that drives either syntax or mxvladi away.

Let me also state that no matter what mxvladi have or haven't done he is one of the most helpful people around the forum at the moment (or ever). Certanly more so than I have ever been. He is also a great architect.

Please solve this in a civil manner. Please stay with us, both of you!

Syntax
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Blondbeard wrote:
Let me just state that I really hope this does not become a conflict that drives either syntax or mxvladi away.

Let me also state that no matter what mxvladi have or haven't done he is one of the most helpful people around the forum at the moment (or ever). Certanly more so than I have ever been. He is also a great architect.

Please solve this in a civil manner. Please stay with us, both of you!

I definitely respect mxvladi's help on the forums and his #1s.

I would just like to keep the game a level playing field and question his demos. If any outside tools are beinug used, I am asking to desist.

Jatopian
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So someone made unlimited undo where Caravel refused to implement it?

...

I kinda hope they share.

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mxvladi
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I've NEVER used any external tools while playing DROD. I'm not even using clock/transparent tar mods for that reason. I like playing/optimizing DROD the way it is.

And you accuse me of using some solver just because my demos are faster(time-wise) than others'? I've replayed those rooms you've mentioned about 7-8 times; obviously I'm doing it faster and faster with each replay. Often I'm just aiming for getting as small time as possible in addition to very few moves. I guess I should give up optimizing time in my demos and wait 5-6 seconds after each turn so you don't use it to accuse me of cheating, huh?

When a room really requires lots of time, I spend *do* lots of time(ever bothered to look at my 20 longest rooms #1s?). But this is not the case for the rooms you've mentioned.

If this explanation doesn't satisfy you, then please bother to think of better proof than just "fast(time-wise) demos". Seriously, if I type and press numpad keys fast, it means I use bots?


(by the way, some of TF's demos(taking TF only as an example) are also really fast time-wise. Does it mean you think he's "cheating", too?)

Dischorran
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This probably could have been phrased more artfully - like, sticking with a few questions and skipping the outright accusations and expectations and stuff. Accomplishes just as much, and keeps everyone happier! I might have gone with not phrasing it at all, but that's maybe an expression of my own priorities.

EDIT: Oh good, mx is here. So now I can say how nice it is to have an extra-reliable tester hanging out on the beta boards.

____________________________

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[Last edited by Dischorran at 12-25-2011 05:16 PM]

Syntax
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mxvladi wrote:
I've NEVER used any external tools while playing DROD. I'm not even using clock/transparent tar mods for that reason. I like playing/optimizing DROD the way it is.

And you accuse me of using some solver just because my demos are faster(time-wise) than others'? I've replayed those rooms you've mentioned about 7-8 times; obviously I'm doing it faster and faster with each replay. Often I'm just aiming for getting as small time as possible in addition to very few moves. I guess I should give up optimizing time in my demos and wait 5-6 seconds after each turn so you don't use it to accuse me of cheating, huh?

When a room really requires lots of time, I spend *do* lots of time(ever bothered to look at my 20 longest rooms #1s?). But this is not the case for the rooms you've mentioned.

If this explanation doesn't satisfy you, then please bother to think of better proof than just "fast(time-wise) demos". Seriously, if I type and press numpad keys fast, it means I use bots?


(by the way, some of TF's demos(taking TF only as an example) are also really fast time-wise. Does it mean you think he's "cheating", too?)

There are many sections in your demos which are too fluid to be entered by hand. I've seen similar playback when using room section solvers or playback macros hence my original post. Optimising time is never usually a stat that optimisers focus on so I'm not looking at overall times as such... but rather - moves in various sections are not natural (Puppet Master: 2nd level: 1S1E: 124 - 144 is a great example)

My post was not a personal accusation of cheating, but rather a request to cease and desist if you are using external tools/solvers/UU/playback. As I said previously, I have a lot of respect of your #1s as these usually require added innovation.

I would rather not enter into a quest for proof such as analysing movement timings etc but hopefully we can just agree on the point of playing the game as is.

12th Archivist
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Oh, look, this argument again.

EDTI: Well, not quite, but the concept of fair play is back on the table, at least for a moment.

____________________________
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Check out the DROD Wikia project here!

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[Last edited by 12th Archivist at 12-25-2011 05:38 PM]

west.logan
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If I might add something...

I've belonged to many competitive communities in the past and a request such as this was not uncommon at all. In fact, I don't remember anyone taking offense at it---it's just the way it was and no personal attack was intended.

Ways I've seen people show their legitimacy (honour, if you will) include simply making a video of their hands. Aside from casting aside all doubt, it's remarkably entertaining to see how quickly some of the top players do things.

And I'm not claiming this needs to be a requirement for everyone, but if you're conscientious about your honour (as I was), it doesn't take much effort to demonstrate it and it actually inculcates more respect.

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larrymurk
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I don't know the logistics of demo speeds or such but I can say that mxvladi was of invaluable help as the main tester on Puppet Master and I know of at least two other recent holds he has been equally helpful on. I'm not just talking about saying these rooms are solvable or not. He has provided insights into unintended solutions, factors that make rooms annoying to play like too much trial and error, difficulty ratings, and suggested changes.

I don't play drod for high scores much, but I sincerely doubt that mxvladi would be such a thoughtful, dedicated supporter of the drod community, and cheat and lie about it to get top scores.

Banjooie
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What's this?

Syntax is pants on head insane?

This doesn't sound like news at all!

My favorite part of this thraed is that we're not going 'Man, Mxvladi, how are you making these demos so smooth, they are like BABY BOTTOMS', and then naturally letting Mxvladi reveal his theoretical cheating ways

No, we go headfirst into HE IS CLEARLY ABUSING CHEATS THERE IS NO OTHER WAY THAT SOMEONE'S BEST DEMO EVER COULD HAVE POSSIBLY BEEN DONE SMOOTHLY like we're trying to blind people with our tinfoil hats

therefore, in the interest of this not becoming Michthro 2.0

This thread is now about the 'u' in honour and how awesome it is and how jealous Americans are of it.

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[Last edited by Banjooie at 12-26-2011 12:05 AM]

12th Archivist
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Banjooie wrote:
What's this?

Syntax is pants on head insane?

I noticed that Syntax's +4 was removed from his first post in the thread, presumably by you. Clever.

This thread is now about the 'u' in honour and how awesome it is and how jealous Americans are of it.

I much prefer American spelling on most words, but "liter" is always always always "litre" to me. Not sure why I like that so much especially when every other "er" vs. "re" is an "er" to me.

I just realized how that makes me inconsistint [sic].

oh god what have you done?

____________________________
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[Last edited by 12th Archivist at 12-26-2011 12:48 AM]

da rogu3
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Syntax wrote:
There are many sections in your demos which are too fluid to be entered by hand. I've seen similar playback when using room section solvers or playback macros hence my original post. Optimising time is never usually a stat that optimisers focus on so I'm not looking at overall times as such... but rather - moves in various sections are not natural (Puppet Master: 2nd level: 1S1E: 124 - 144 is a great example)

Perhaps it might simply be manually recorded keyboard macros? I myself have a button which quickly outputs QQWW (useful for clearing out masses of roaches after using a speed potion) and I don't think those sorts of things should be discouraged. Regardless of whether any external tools are being used or not, if the the time taken to solve a room is the only thing to get affected, then it isn't such a big deal, and people shouldn't be getting so worked up about it.

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[Last edited by da rogu3 at 12-26-2011 01:17 AM]

Banjooie
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If really, really brutal accusations on barebones proof is somehow worth +4 on these forums, I'm not really sure what's going on anymore, honestly.

This isn't like when we were all angry at halyavin for making his room solver thing, mostly because Haly NEVER SHUT UP ABOUT IT.

This is the grim possibility mvxladi might have some kind of macro thing.

This thread is ridiculous and I refuse to sit by while it goes on.

Tahnan
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12th Archivist wrote:

Banjooie wrote:
What's this?

Syntax is pants on head insane?

I noticed that Syntax's +4 was removed from his first post in the thread, presumably by you. Clever.

I didn't remove the +4; it was at 0 when I got here. Of course, after I got here, it was at -4; draw your own conclusions.

I will, however, echo Banjooie's deep lack of surprise at the news that Syntax is owl-stretching insane. Go read the threads on sniping, for instance (they're easy to find; just look at the last threads michthro posted in before he quit in frustration).

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[Last edited by Tahnan at 12-26-2011 01:53 AM]

Jatopian
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I think the real issue here is that Syntax has been pants-on-owl insane for years and no one has made him a sympathy thread yet.

We may not know what you go through, Syntax, but you're a valued member of the community nonetheless.

Do you want to talk about it?

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Schik
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I expect a full explanation and a promise to desist. I also propose that you give up all #1s (and other scores) which are 50% faster than the 2nd place demo. Consistently seeing 15 second demos compared to top 5 avg of over a minute must mean you're using external tools.

Okay, just for the record, Caravel employees are the only ones who could reasonably make some sort of demand like this.

I expect that people will stop making pretty baseless accusations like this, and I expect that people will stop demanding that other users explain their high scores, and I expect that people would bring this sort of thing up to Caravel and await and respect their decision, and I expect that people will stop the petty name-calling.

Tis the season, indeed.

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Banjooie
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I will have you know my name-calling isn't petty at all!

but alright

silver
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Well, I expect a ham sammich.

Sadly, expectations don't always work out (I think Mick Jagger has a song about this).

Of course, you have the power to back yours up, so hopefully you'll get a better response than I (but I'm not really holding my breath, I expect there will be some argument(*))

(*) this time expect was used in the sense of "anticipate" rather than "demand", which is closer to its usual meaning, I expect

____________________________

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[Last edited by silver at 12-26-2011 09:00 PM]

bodkin
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No-one seems to be considering the obvious, that mxvladi has evolved beyond the normal capabilities of human beings, or has cyber implants.

There is no cause to worry; we should not hound him/her and any others of their kind. We must not force them to live their lives in secret, scared that the human mobs will find and destroy them: we all know what happens if we do that. There is no need for war between humanity and the next step. Instead we should open our hearts, talk peace and work together to save the planet.

Please forgive us.

Syntax
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It was an open letter as several players have now asked me about the validity of some of mxvladis' demos and I was the one to voice their concerns. It's not baseless because of this but glad to know Caravel will look into the matter further (I had been under the impression Caravel did not want to get involved in such matters).

I apologise for the suggestion of removing some of the more dubious #1s but that was merely a suggestion - that's obviously a Caravel decision. I certainly would not want mxvladi to quit so I proposed that as a possible alternative.

I'm all for intelligent play but want to make the playing field fair especially for a paid service.

And no, I'm not insane - just mad. Furious in fact

UrAvgAzn
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Hang on, for historical purposes, what happened with michthro? I know I was around but I can't remember exactly what happened.

Happy holidays!

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Briareos
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Syntax wrote:
And no, I'm not insane - just mad. Furious in fact

Oh, come on... if you're truly mad you'll have to do better than a single, off-the-shelf smiley... BWAHAHAHAHAaargh.

np: Pop Will Eat Itself - Disguise (New Noise Designed By A Sadist)

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larrymurk
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Sadly, it seemed michthro left during some forum arguments. Not sure if that was why he left. He was another awe inspiring droder.

Jatopian
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Syntax wrote:
It was an open letter as several players have now asked me about the validity of some of mxvladis' demos and I was the one to voice their concerns. It's not baseless because of this

Let them come forward and speak, then.

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Syntax
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Jatopian wrote:

Syntax wrote:
It was an open letter as several players have now asked me about the validity of some of mxvladis' demos and I was the one to voice their concerns. It's not baseless because of this

Let them come forward and speak, then.

Why? I covered the main points.

Banjooie
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I like the implication here that, concerned that someone is cheating, forum people are asking Syntax instead of asking Caravel to look into it, because that's a completely logicayou're a goddamn lunatic.

Jatopian
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Syntax wrote:
Why? I covered the main points.

Because I don't believe these people exist. I suspect you invented them in an attempted appeal to popularity.

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DROD has some really great music.
Make your pressure plates 3.0 style!
DROD architecture idea generator

Syntax
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Jatopian wrote:

Syntax wrote:
Why? I covered the main points.

Because I don't believe these people exist. I suspect you invented them in an attempted appeal to popularity.

Not everyone is comfortable posting about this kind of subject on the forums. It's not a popular subject so I certainly didn't raise this to gain any sort of popularity

Syntax
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This thread has created a lot of attention. My original intent was simply to ask mxvladi to desist from using any tools which would aid in gaining an advantage (UU, macros etc). I felt demos showed signs that tools outside of DROD were being used.

mxvladi has confirmed that this is not the case. Several people have also viewed the example demos and the conclusion is that no cheating is going on.

I certainly have always regarded mxvladi as a great player but felt it reasonable to raise doubt. Humble apologies to mxvladi for the tone of my OP. My accusation was obviously misguided...