Neather2
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 406
Registered: 07-18-2006
IP: Logged

Syntax wrote:
I've only just noticed this thread and thought I'd give some input...

I have fallen out with many players over the years and have posted things whilst not quite in the right frame of mind. I accept that people will mod down those posts, and that those I have argued with will disagree with some of the stuff I've said.

I also realise that mod points aren't supposed to matter, but they do to me. They're a representation of the time I've spent on these forums. When I first arrived here, I looked at posts made by 1k+ mod forumites and figured I could trust their advice more than others. This is a faceless place, and so mod points become a replacement for respect.

From my side, I was just happily going along until I neared 1000. At that point, everything was modded down. Sure, I'm brash at times but I'd never had a mod-down for 3 years even during the heated arguments I was having with other players. I mellowed after that, but still seeing -1s coming up everywhere - even for advice and H&S so I stopped posting for a while.

Once I came back, everything was back to normal. I contributed to the forums with helpful posts and hints etc and then over one weekend, I was back down to 977 from 1027 (and as briareos pointed out, I had celebrated my first 1000 a while before).

This time, the downmods never hit negatives, so was harder to detect.

This for example took me 2 hours to write and was +4. I felt that was the forum showing their appreciation. Overnight it was reduced to 0. Should I not bother spending time on this forum?

If I was to publish a hold and it got all 1s because of "points don't matter, it's just someone modding you down", should I put the effort into making one?

If mod points aren't important, get rid of them. As I understand them, they represent long-term status on the forum.

Here's what i understand.

____________________________
Nothing to say. I just play the game. And you, sir, should play it too.

Conspiracy, my new hold, has just been released.

Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1645
Registered: 12-12-2004
IP: Logged

agaricus5 wrote:
You made a post that basically says the rest of us think rank points are a necessary means of control, and you do not agree with it. Fair enough, but no-one else seems to think rank points mean much anyway, which you appear to have missed. I'm also trying to point out (perhaps unclearly), that I think mod points on the other hand do have some effect, and shouldn't be confused with rank points.

Alright, let me get this straight. Maybe I am a little unfamiliar with how internets work.

Rank points: That four digit total underneath my name that gives me the delicious right to make fun of you for not being as awesome as I am.

Mod points: The three digit total in my profile that gives me the ability to make people rage by reducing the total underneath their name.

You're telling me people are more worried about their ability to affect rank points than their rank points? Because this conversation goes places if you do, and I look forward to it.

Well, that's your opinion. I'm not sure how you are arriving at such a conclusion, but your opinion is merely that. An opinion.

See, the trick is you vanished for like two three whatever at least a year and I've actually been here, now you're here telling me you know how the system works better.

But okay, I..I guess very technically it's a logical fallacy that more experience and more having seen many photoshops in my time, etc, telling by some of the pixels, would, you know, make my opinion somewhat weighty. I will let you have that one.

Well, at least we figure something out. It's more constructive than passing off the maker of this thread as not having learned anything from it, and returning us all to square one.

PROTIP: He still hasn't. True story, bro. We are so at square one, Mathman is staring at equations.

If you believe that criticising people is necessary to make them improve or at the least, cease annoying you, then that's your opinion. But if you're going to judge people in general and use that as your excuse to do so, then, well, I don't know what to say. It certainly doesn't sound very mature.

I thought you were a mycologist or whatever it is you do? Cause you're coming off like an elementary school teacher right about now. Do you seriously use those phrases at work?

NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1302
Registered: 02-12-2006
IP: Logged

Banjooie wrote:
I thought you were a mycologist or whatever it is you do? Cause you're coming off like an elementary school teacher right about now. Do you seriously use those phrases at work?

First you claim that social psychology is on your side, without explaining how, then this. Seriously banjooie, I thought you had higher standards than this. I mean, you seem to know what logical fallacy's are, surely you know what a argument from authority and ad homenin are.

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[Last edited by NiroZ at 05-09-2009 08:49 AM]

Tahnan
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2467
Registered: 11-14-2005
IP: Logged

Aaaaand, scene.

I mean, seriously, guys, I know you're having fun with this, but you aren't even arguing about rank points and mod points DAMP and CRAP any more. For a few posts now, you've literally been arguing about your argument. And while I might care about the damp crap behind the argument, I can assure you that I'm an utterly neutral observer when it comes to the argument itself. So allow me to offer a neutral, unbiased judgment:

You've both lost.

OK, there; argument settled. Seriously honestly swear-to-god settled. Further argument about the argument can't make you win, because it's too late--you've already lost.

Now, as for the CRAP that was under discussion before the argument became about itself, I believe that there's zero disagreement that:

* Some people care about the points.
* Some don't.
* Some people think no one should care about the points.
* Some don't.
* Some jackass out there mods people down at random because (s)he thinks it's funny.
* It's not.

The things that you might disagree on, but shouldn't, because I'm telling you so:

* 99% of the time the system works fine. (Once a year something happens and Maurog/Syntax/Neather2/whoever becomes the target of maliciousness and the entire system is called into question, until finally someone quits the forum, or gets tired of yelling, or gets tired of being yelled at, or realizes that the malice has ended and there's not really anything left to yell about.)
* Since we can't stop a jackass from being a jackass, and since the system works fine 99% of the time, we might be far better off turning our attention to, say, testing holds in the Architecture thread and convincing architects not to submit them prematurely to the HAs, or designing flags for countries in the Eighth, or posting lolpotatoes.

Tim
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1979
Registered: 08-07-2004
IP: Logged

I've just spent about 20 points to mod up (not down) posts in this thread.

Like Jacob's insightful post (even if it's unclear to some people). Or Syntax's post that actually proves that he had posts links to some unfairly modded down posts, for the first time after I've asked in this thread.

If any of you think that I'm wrong then I'll suggest you to post the reasons why. Otherwise I will continue to mod up. I'm not going to mod you down. I'm only interested to know why, if you have the time to explain it to someone who's doesn't want to guess.

____________________________
The best way to lose customers is to let little kids running loose on a forum with too many mod points.

Maurog
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1501
Registered: 09-16-2004
IP: Logged

Hmm, I just thought of something, guys.

Seen as nobody seems to have a problem with unreasonable upmods, and we all agree that when ten different people mod a post down by one point it's much better than one guy modding it ten points down, let's just restrict mod up/down ratios.

What I mean is something like, you must give five upmods for every potential downmod, and until you gather these five you can't do a downmod. It should be easy to implement, and it ensures people are more positive than negative. What do you think?

____________________________
Slay the living! Raise the dead!
Paint the sky in crimson red!

NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1302
Registered: 02-12-2006
IP: Logged

Maurog wrote:
Hmm, I just thought of something, guys.

What do you think?

Hmmm, that wouldn't stop a truly determined person from downmodding someone, but it would make it a lot more tedious.

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[Last edited by NiroZ at 05-09-2009 08:57 AM]

Maurog
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1501
Registered: 09-16-2004
IP: Logged

Yes, and it would also automatically solve all up/down fights in favor of up, which I fail to see the problem with. And at the very least if you are the target of a vendetta you can console yourself with the thought that they had to channel positivity to five people just to get to you. I think it's a good solution for everything.

Oh, and by the way, Neather2, please secret your signature and don't reply by quoting a huge post and adding one line of feedback. That post on top is a prime example, which may be one of the reasons people modded you down.

____________________________
Slay the living! Raise the dead!
Paint the sky in crimson red!

Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1645
Registered: 12-12-2004
IP: Logged

Uh..sure, seems reasonable enough to me.

TripleM
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1379
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

I guess that would work, though I prefer the equality of modding up and down. Could be quite a bit of work for Schik though.

To be honest, I see no reason why who-modded-what can be logged (with only eg Schik seeing it), so that if someone is abusing the system it can be dealt with quietly. Knowing that Schik can see what I mod up and down wouldn't affect how I use the mod system at all; the only people who I could see as not liking this idea is people who abuse it in the first place.

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[Last edited by TripleM at 05-09-2009 09:49 AM]

Neather2
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 406
Registered: 07-18-2006
IP: Logged

VIPCOOL wrote:
Neather2, In case you haven't worked this out from what's been said:

1. You shouldn't think holds are bad if they are too easy for you. You should realise that they are not aimed for people of your expected difficulty range.

2. Instead, why don't you actually play some harder holds that you should like? Try finishing Beethro's Teacher and TCB. Play some other holds like Lone Soldier and The Underground Civilization. You might find those challenging.

3. Don't complain about your own hold. (I believe this is why people started modding down your posts as you seemed to contradict yourself by being unfair to other people's holds)

While I agree that rank points do show a sign of status and contribution, most people still give the same amount of respect or trust towards everyone, regardless of their rank. Only people with a rank below 10 might be ignored.

Edit: Although personally, I feel that holds might be rated slighty higher depending on who the author is when people might not find the hold that fun. Same goes to some SMSs. Anyway, we better not start a debate about that.
And please don't lock this thread. It's fun to read.

1) I didn't never say that holds are bad if they are easy for me (And even if i do that, i don't think that i must be mod down, or then they should not be called comments).

2) I've nearly finished TCB (i'm on AF, it's a really boring level), and also, i finished KDD, JTRH and hundreds more holds. BT is a hold that i can't end. But this doesn't mean that i can't say that others hold are easy for me.

3) And i also think that the question with my hold is different, becouse i get a lot of 1 and 2 without explanation or negative comments, this want to say that people only want not to play the hold or make me get bad.

And...nope. I will never delete this thread.





____________________________
Nothing to say. I just play the game. And you, sir, should play it too.

Conspiracy, my new hold, has just been released.

Neather2
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 406
Registered: 07-18-2006
IP: Logged

It isn't for that. Vipcool asked for that. And also, not all the unfair mod downs were removed.

____________________________
Nothing to say. I just play the game. And you, sir, should play it too.

Conspiracy, my new hold, has just been released.

NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1302
Registered: 02-12-2006
IP: Logged

mxvladi wrote:

And...nope. I will never delete this thread.

Is there any reason for that? Your mod downs on Holds board have been removed already

If we all did that there'd be precious little on the forum and plenty of repetition.

Neather2
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 406
Registered: 07-18-2006
IP: Logged

VIPCOOL wrote:

And please don't lock this thread. It's fun to read.

No? See the last part of the quoted post.

____________________________
Nothing to say. I just play the game. And you, sir, should play it too.

Conspiracy, my new hold, has just been released.

---

[Last edited by Neather2 at 05-09-2009 03:47 PM]

skell
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3864
Registered: 12-28-2004
IP: Logged

Neather2 wrote:

VIPCOOL wrote:
And please don't lock this thread. It's fun to read.

No? See the last part of the quoted post.

Neather2: Please, remove the part of quotation that is not needed, so it doesn't clutter the boards.
Anyway, VIPCOOL asked to NOT LOCK (or delete) the thread, not LOCK. And that is regarding former request by members to lock the thread and drop this matter.

____________________________
My website

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[Last edited by skell at 05-09-2009 02:56 PM]

Neather2
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 406
Registered: 07-18-2006
IP: Logged

Well, i understood it bad then. Sorry



____________________________
Nothing to say. I just play the game. And you, sir, should play it too.

Conspiracy, my new hold, has just been released.

---

[Last edited by Neather2 at 05-09-2009 04:14 PM]

12th Archivist
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 789
Registered: 12-07-2008
IP: Logged

If an admin locked the thread, it could still be read. Nobody could post in the thread anymore, but it's still readable.

____________________________
It was going well until it exploded.
~Scott Manley

Check out the DROD Wikia project here!

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

I kind of regret contributing to stirring this up now. I certainly feel bad if nothing else.

However, at the very least, could we keep modding-related discussion to threads like this one (and preferably here, now it's active)? If there is debate to be had, please let's not clutter up and spoil other threads with it.

____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

Tim
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1979
Registered: 08-07-2004
IP: Logged

Back from the participants thread:

Lamkin wrote:
So, using that logic, any given mod down is unfair if it's unexplained?

I think it depends. It's fair to you if you can explain it yourself. But it's unfair to anyone else if they feel they cannot deduce that from the information at hand. And since we have too many downmods lately I'd prefer to check every one of them, even if I could be wrong.

Perhaps we should see the explanation as part of the courtesy of this forum. If I want to visit a forum that everyone don't like each other, then I have plenty to choose from. But I'd rather prefer a forum where the people I talk to can be considered as actual human beings, and that we could be at least honest and respectful to each other, worthy of at least an explanation if one is being modded down.

And now it's time for me to go to bed.

Edit: feel free to continue in the other thread. I was so busy writing this that I haven't had the time to see the other thread.

____________________________
The best way to lose customers is to let little kids running loose on a forum with too many mod points.

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[Last edited by Tim at 05-10-2009 01:43 AM]

Lamkin
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 606
Registered: 08-17-2008
IP: Logged

Some needed context, as my quote (directly above) doesn't pertain specifically to Neather2's topic.

I'll continue the discussion over in this thread. Carry on...

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[Last edited by Lamkin at 05-10-2009 05:12 AM]

Dischorran
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3425
Registered: 09-10-2005
IP: Logged

So apparently I'm involved in this now. In principle, mods in either direction strike me as a way to give feedback without derailing a thread, and explaining them sort of defeats that purpose. In practice, that doesn't seem to be working lately. So, one might consider dealing with downmods like any other real-life criticism:

1. Note the criticism.
2. Assess for yourself if it's justified.
a. If it is, adjust your behavior.
b. If it isn't, blow it off. It's the downmodder's problem, and if it's the minority opinion, it'll soon be removed anyway.
3. If the mod pattern persists, reassess step 2.

This is excellent practice for learning to handle grades, interview results, performance evaluations, and so forth. If the reasoning for mods really isn't clear, that's a strong case for 2b, but I don't think that happens nearly as often as people claim when it happens to them (see also: standard reactions to being pulled over by a cop).

tl;dr version: they're fine as is.

____________________________

Tim
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1979
Registered: 08-07-2004
IP: Logged

Let me start by saying that I don't have any eprsonal grudges against anyone, and that I'm just describing the current situation of the forum.

I'd love to see that people who got modded down to complain themselves. But this doesn't work in practice.

For example, if you look at this thread, everyone who complained about his/her downmods got either downmodded and ignored for at least 30+ posts.

So as long as that is not working, I think I (and everyone else) should be able to challenge any downmods (or upmods, for that matter).

It's also interesting to note that people think they can downmod other people because they don't agree with them but cannot accept that other people might not agree with the downmodders.

____________________________
The best way to lose customers is to let little kids running loose on a forum with too many mod points.

NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1302
Registered: 02-12-2006
IP: Logged

Tim wrote:
For example, if you look at this thread, everyone who complained about his/her downmods got either downmodded and ignored for at least 30+ posts.

Considering I've been making sure that that doesn't happen, I'm not sure what your talking about.

Tim
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1979
Registered: 08-07-2004
IP: Logged

NiroZ wrote:
Considering I've been making sure that that doesn't happen, I'm not sure what your talking about.

I'm in a hurry, but, for example, both Syntax's post and Jacob's post in this thread were modded down. I've used some mod points to mod them back up.

____________________________
The best way to lose customers is to let little kids running loose on a forum with too many mod points.

NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1302
Registered: 02-12-2006
IP: Logged

Tim wrote:
For example, if you look at this thread, everyone who complained about his/her downmods got either downmodded and ignored for at least 30+ posts.

IMHO they were only downmodded recently, which means that they were hardly ignored.

And there are plenty of reasons now to bring it up. Foremost is feeding the trolls.

Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1645
Registered: 12-12-2004
IP: Logged

I really and truly see no problem with people asking why other people were downmodded. Not even just in the 'oh this is gonna be funny' sense. Frankly, if someone ELSE is asking, it increases your chances that hey, maybe you're not abysmally dense, maybe someone did downmod your post to be a jerk.

Tahnan
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2467
Registered: 11-14-2005
IP: Logged

Asking why, no, there's no problem with that. Expecting an explanation without asking, though, is a different matter. And I think it's worth noting that VIPCOOL's extremely clear and polite explanation explains that, among other things, "I thought the downmod was justified a long time ago and I agree it was fair." So sure, you can ask why someone else was downmodded, if it seems important enough to ask.

On the other hand, asking why someone was downmodded will derail the thread to be about the thread instead of about the topic. It may be easier to just quietly mod the post back up, if you disagree with its rating.

Hopefully if someone has a "why was Post X downmodded" question, they'll ask it here rather in the thread with that post.

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1489
Registered: 03-31-2005
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He means it

Tahnan
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2467
Registered: 11-14-2005
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Ah! Welcome to "Tone of Voice on the Internet 101", which Tahnan may have just failed!

That wasn't meant to sound sarcastic. It was in fact praise for being clear and polite, which puts you ahead of most of the people discussing your posts, myself probably included.

NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1302
Registered: 02-12-2006
IP: Logged

Now it appears our sneaky as an elephant downmodder is trying to do ballet. Instead of stripping the mod posts off old posts so that you go down one a day, they're now trying to hold the rankpoints in status by only stripping as many points off posts as are gained. Thus meaning me, neather2 and syntax (as far as I know. If anybody else has this happening to them contact me) stay permanently at one point, say 1000.

I wouldn't be a prime example of a life, this this person has less of one than I do.