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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Holds : Complex Complex (Spring 2009 Smitemaster's Selection)
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9.0/10 (23 votes)
σ 1.43
Author Name:Rasmus Björling
Submitted By:Rheb
Hold Name:Complex Complex
Theme:Spring 2009 Smitemaster's Selection
Author's Difficulty:
Number of Levels:7
Number of Rooms:111
Number of Monsters:1301
Version:DROD: The City Beneath (3.2)
High Scores:View High Scores
Hold Karma:20 (+20 / -0)
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mxvladi
Level: Smitemaster
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icon Re: Complex Complex (+1)  
Conquered!!! :w00t

Ending stats:

Click here to view the secret text


Some comments I didn't tell in my previous comment-post:

All Lava Gates puzzles(particulary brained-monsters-ones) were exellent. Lava Gates was my favourite level. And there were the best brained monster tricks puzzles I've ever seen there! :thumbsup

The northern part of Complex consisted of five relaxing-difficulty rooms. Solving thee was a nice relaxing before those evil rooms in Company(and the northern part of Lava Gates). And optimising of them was fun also.

The northern part of Lava Gates was truly lovely. Particulary 4N 1E, which stumped me for ages before I realised that I actually can complete it with sword pointing north(I needed help in H&S to realise that, however).

I have mixed feeling about the last level. Most of the rooms there were really fun(particulary those mimic-and-disarm-token puzzles ;) )... But those goblin-and-decoys rooms were EVIL! :angry Of course, I had to use H&S to complete them. The ideas of those rooms are good, but the way goblins react on multiple decoys is something that I don't really understand, so these rooms were quite trial-and-error for me.
By the way, I truly enjoyed roach queen and wraithwing guiding puzzles on that level. :)

Now, it's time to optimise some rooms I haven't really optimised, start sttrugling through secret rooms and try to master this hold.

Total rating I give this hold: 8 brains(most of last level wasn't so hard); 10 for fun

Awesome hold, Rheb. :thumbsup

[Last edited by mxvladi at 06-14-2009 12:25 PM]
06-14-2009 at 12:24 PM
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ZiP
Level: Roachling
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icon Re: Complex Complex (0)  
How can I download this hold? I can't see it in the main list.
Sorry for the stupid question.
06-15-2009 at 06:46 PM
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Neather2
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icon Re: Complex Complex (0)  
Oh yeah finally finished! I'm going to fight agaisnt the secret rooms now ;)

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Conspiracy, my new hold, has just been released.

[Last edited by Neather2 at 07-10-2009 03:56 PM]
07-10-2009 at 03:56 PM
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jbluestein
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icon Re: Complex Complex (+2)  
OK, I've gone long enough without commenting on this hold. I haven't (re-)conquered it yet, but it was my privilege to be a beta-tester on it and so I've seen all of it before (and solved all except the hardest secret rooms).

This is one of the best and most original holds I have ever played. The entire Lava Gates level is a huge thrill to play, and while the puzzles throughout all have Rheb's distinctive signature (to the point where certain puzzles have obvious solutions that are only obvious because I've played a bunch of other Rheb holds before), they're almost all interesting and fun.

Make no mistake -- this is a pretty difficult hold. It's not Beethro's Teacher or Perfection-level...not quite. But it will tax your abilities well enough.

I give this hold a 10 for fun and 8.5 brains, and it ties with Beethro and the Secret Society for my favorite SMS hold ever.

Great job, Rheb!

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"Rings and knots of joy and grief, all interlaced and locking." --William Buck
09-30-2009 at 03:06 PM
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Rheb
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icon Re: Complex Complex (0)  
Thanks Josh! :)

And that reminds me: I ought to play through Beethro and the Secret Society again someday. It was one of the first holds I played, and it's truly amazing!

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Voligner is my very own DROD-like game. Please check it out!
09-30-2009 at 08:16 PM
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martz
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icon Re: Complex Complex (+3)  
Phew, finally finished this after giving up on it a few times - I actually mastered it about a month ago but decided to come back and finish off the last few post mastery rooms.

Firstly to point out the obvious, this is a tough hold - I'd put it on a par difficulty-wise with Perfection so if you're an not experienced player then don't expect to get too far (although there are H&S topics for most rooms).

Onto the puzzles themselves, the first level gives a good taste of what's to come including some particularly nasty rooms where you need to manipulate goblins using decoys and disarm tokens. Moving on you'll be handling giants and rock golems and you'll need to know some of the peculiarities of giant behaviour as a number of rooms have you manoeuvering them through pressure plate mazes. The lava gates level forces sword position and movement with more monster manoeuvering under these conditions. The final level will have you juggling mimics, clones & decoys in some of the hardest rooms in the hold. This makes it sound quite linear in nature but it's not - you'll be revisiting levels from different places in order to progress and the northern part of the lava gates features a quite superb meta-puzzle where you'll navigate a number of rooms with differing sword positions. As well as this, there's also a hidden level called Hordes (aptly named) as well as a post mastery level featuring even harder versions of some of the previous rooms.

Although the majority of the puzzles are based on manipulation, on the whole I felt there was a decent variety if maybe some repetition, particularly on the giant/pressure plate mazes but I found the level of difficulty did seem to increase as I progressed.

The design of the hold is superb, especially for The Complex & The Lava Gates - I was actually a bit disappointed at the end that I couldn't have gone back through The Complex using the tunnels and passages that were dotted around.

The voice acting is also excellent, especially Ombus. I realize it costs extra to bring in vocal talent from outside the community but it really adds to the experience. The issue of the scrolls has already been mentioned - hopefully this will be improved in the next release? (scrolling scrolls perhaps?)

Overall this is a fantastic addition to the Smitemaster's Selection collection and probably my favourite of them all.

My Verdict:

Difficulty: 8.5
Fun: 10

____________________________
Without struggle, there is no progress, so get up, get out, and go make the rest of your life the best of your life; you deserve to live the life that YOU want to live...

Progress - Gavin G
02-28-2012 at 09:08 PM
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OneMoreNameless
Level: Master Delver
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icon Re: Complex Complex (+1)  
If you put this hold in front of an evil eye, it would instantly explode with a 3 tile radius from existential angst. That's how polished this hold is. Aesthetic design is amazing while still leaving the puzzle areas clean and distinct. Voice acting is great - although it does sometimes trigger at points such that it'll repeat every time you retry the puzzle. Checkpoints are almost too plentiful on occasion; there are rooms with simple execution once solved that still have half a dozen or more crammed into one tiny area. That's it, that's all the nitpicking I've got here (which should tell you something).

As for the puzzles, well. I genuinely love the first level; the twinned room layout allows for a few cool ideas to be explored without becoming overly complex in a single puzzle, there's a nice variety of puzzle types, some familiarity with the game's elements is needed but given that knowledge the difficulty is perhaps moderate - and never relies on unpredictable hordes or convoluted interaction chains.

Unfortunately, the variety goes sharply downhill for what I've managed to reach of the 2nd and 3rd levels. Almost every room is straightforward precise manipulation with a lot of similarly laid out puzzles designed with rapidly increasing difficulty, and the only reward for completing them is even more difficult (required) variants. If this appeals to you, great! Throw your money at Caravel Games post-haste. But after poking at and struggling through these for a while it is clear that the fun has been well and truly killed for me. :?
06-08-2013 at 05:42 AM
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Dischorran
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icon Re: Complex Complex (-3)  
quote:
OneMoreNameless wrote:
If you put this hold in front of an evil eye, it would instantly explode with a 3 tile radius from existential angst. That's how polished this hold is. Aesthetic design is amazing while still leaving the puzzle areas clean and distinct. Voice acting is great - although it does sometimes trigger at points such that it'll repeat every time you retry the puzzle. Checkpoints are almost too plentiful on occasion; there are rooms with simple execution once solved that still have half a dozen or more crammed into one tiny area. That's it, that's all the nitpicking I've got here (which should tell you something).

As for the puzzles, well. I genuinely love the first level; the twinned room layout allows for a few cool ideas to be explored without becoming overly complex in a single puzzle, there's a nice variety of puzzle types, some familiarity with the game's elements is needed but given that knowledge the difficulty is perhaps moderate - and never relies on unpredictable hordes or convoluted interaction chains.

Unfortunately, the variety goes sharply downhill for what I've managed to reach of the 2nd and 3rd levels. Almost every room is straightforward precise manipulation with a lot of similarly laid out puzzles designed with rapidly increasing difficulty, and the only reward for completing them is even more difficult (required) variants. If this appeals to you, great! Throw your money at Caravel Games post-haste. But after poking at and struggling through these for a while it is clear that the fun has been well and truly killed for me. :?
tl;dr This hold is haaaaarrrrrd! <whine>

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06-08-2013 at 07:44 AM
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da rogu3
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icon Re: Complex Complex (0)  
quote:
OneMoreNameless wrote: But after poking at and struggling through these for a while it is clear that the fun has been well and truly killed for me. :?
I was actually going to suggest you don't get this SMS (I figured you probably wouldn't like it that much), but was too late to post on that other thread you made.

I strongly recommend getting Finding the First Truth - I think you'll enjoy that. :)
06-08-2013 at 10:58 AM
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Doom
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icon Re: Complex Complex (+1)  
I actually had the same experience with this as OneMoreNameless.

The hold is very well made, and yes it's hard. Unique puzzle ideas too (especially liked the decoy fegundo mazes).

But there's one puzzle archetype I've never found fun, and it's very heavily represented in this hold. The Beethro's Dance of Death -type rooms where it's clear what you have to do, and the puzzle is to find very specific movement patterns to reach that goal.

On a sidenote unlimited undo probably helps a ton with this hold, so maybe this is worth taking a second look after 5.0
06-08-2013 at 11:05 AM
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Kyp
Level: Delver
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icon Re: Complex Complex (+2)  
I just post-mastered this hold. :D

Oh my god did it hurt my brain ! It's nearly as hard as Beethro's Teacher. Perhaps even as hard. The only ting making me think "nearly as hard" is that it's a bit shorter.

If it wasn't official enough already, I declare it again : "I deeply hate giants."

There, I said it. Again.
09-10-2013 at 09:03 PM
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