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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Architecture : Gigantic Jewel lost (a sequel to Doctor E. Will's Mega Complex)
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Rheb
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File: GJL Goblin Woods 2N2E Victory.demo (2.7 KB)
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icon Re: Gigantic Jewel lost (+1)  
Here's my demo for 2N2E. I think I can improve the adder cutting technique so that I won't need a single goblin.

Edit: By the way, do you want me to mass export my demos too? I haven't played the latest version, so some of them will be invalid.

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[Last edited by Rheb at 04-07-2009 01:14 PM]
04-07-2009 at 01:12 PM
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Zch
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icon Re: Gigantic Jewel lost (+1)  
New update. Fixed some more unintended solutions.

quote:

Rheb wrote:
Here's my demo for 2N2E. I think I can improve the adder cutting technique so that I won't need a single goblin.

Edit: By the way, do you want me to mass export my demos too? I haven't played the latest version, so some of them will be invalid.



Huh, that technique is quite weird. We don't understand why it works. That is, why does the adder take damage after eating a mimic when it does not without eating the mimic.

About the demos. It is always nice to see how other people solve our rooms, so sure. Alas, we have made so many changes that the most interesting demos are likely to be totally broken :(
04-07-2009 at 06:47 PM
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Rheb
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icon Re: Gigantic Jewel lost (+1)  
quote:
Zch wrote:
Huh, that technique is quite weird. We don't understand why it works. That is, why does the adder take damage after eating a mimic when it does not without eating the mimic.
Well, the mimics moves before the adder, which makes the mimic able to strike the adder once before it would eat it. In my solution I use the fact that the first placed mimic always moves before later placed mimics. I was sure it was the intended solution, and thought it was pretty neat!

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[Last edited by Rheb at 04-07-2009 07:02 PM]
04-07-2009 at 07:01 PM
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Zch
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icon Re: Gigantic Jewel lost (0)  
quote:
Rheb wrote:
quote:
Zch wrote:
Huh, that technique is quite weird. We don't understand why it works. That is, why does the adder take damage after eating a mimic when it does not without eating the mimic.
Well, the mimics moves before the adder, which makes the mimic able to strike the adder once before it would eat it. In my solution I use the fact that the first placed mimic always moves before later placed mimics. I was sure it was the intended solution, and thought it was pretty neat!


Yes, we get your solution now. That is pretty awesome!
04-07-2009 at 07:48 PM
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Dischorran
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icon Re: Gigantic Jewel lost (+2)  
On to the next level! I like the other style also; it's cleaner than Volcano.

I'm starting to wonder if the puzzles on each level are combinatorial: Clear gel with Beethro. Clear gel with mimic. Clear gel with mimic and Beethro. Clear gel with adder. Clear gel with Beethro and adder. Clear gel with mimic and adder. Clear gel with Beethro, mimic, and adder. Kill adder with Beethro. Kill adder with mimic. Kill adder with Beethro and mimic. Kill Beethro with any of the above, multiple times...

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04-08-2009 at 07:48 AM
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Dischorran
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icon Re: Gigantic Jewel lost (+2)  
And more. I like the layout of Lava Land where Beethro pops in and out of the lava areas as needed. USes seem to be more scarce on this level.

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04-09-2009 at 05:31 AM
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Zch
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icon Re: Gigantic Jewel lost (+1)  
Another update:

Fixed some typos.

Added checkpoints to Lava Land 2S2W, 3S2E and 1S1E.

Removed scripts from Goblin Woods 5N1E and 4N1E.
They were a cute idea, but also totally broken :(

Fixed the cutscene playing too early -bug in Neighbours.
04-09-2009 at 10:39 AM
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Rheb
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icon Re: Gigantic Jewel lost (+1)  
If the trick in Underground Lake: 2S is to get the stalwart to help you cut a tar blob, I think I'm ready to give up on it and ask for a demo. Also, if that is the trick, I think it's far too mean to have in a linear tunnel where the player can either chose to restore and than later redo a couple of rooms, or continue being stuck.



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[Last edited by Rheb at 04-10-2009 06:20 PM]
04-09-2009 at 08:34 PM
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Dischorran
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icon Re: Gigantic Jewel lost (0)  
quote:
Rheb wrote:
If the trick in Underground Lake is to get the stalwart to help you cut a tar blob, I think I'm ready to give up on it and ask for a demo. Also, if that is the trick, I think it's far too mean to have in a linear tunnel where the player can either chose to restore and than later redo a couple of rooms, or continue being stuck.

You mean 2S2W? That room's in the batch of demos that I posted a while back, but apparently gel is the intended solution.

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04-09-2009 at 10:07 PM
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Zch
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icon Re: Gigantic Jewel lost (+1)  
quote:
Dischorran wrote:
quote:
Rheb wrote:
If the trick in Underground Lake is to get the stalwart to help you cut a tar blob, I think I'm ready to give up on it and ask for a demo. Also, if that is the trick, I think it's far too mean to have in a linear tunnel where the player can either chose to restore and than later redo a couple of rooms, or continue being stuck.

You mean 2S2W? That room's in the batch of demos that I posted a while back, but apparently gel is the intended solution.


Or if it was 2S (that is the room we thought would be hard, and it involves cutting tar with stalwart too), then here is demo for that. (There is one on the batch also)

About the linearity and getting stuck. The tunnel has to be linear because you are walking it with the stalwart, and thus the rooms have to be solved in order. (So that the stalwart walks the path with you instead of teleporting around.) Not being able to walk back is also important, because on some rooms you can walk on different exit after conquerin the room and start the next room on wrong place.

But it seems that there would be no problems on walking back before 2S, so maybe we could fix the rooms before it to allow player to walk back to center. We have to think about that.
04-10-2009 at 12:55 AM
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icon Re: Gigantic Jewel lost (0)  
Thanks, I'm through the tar room now, and a few other in the same line. In general, I really don't like stalwart rooms :(

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04-10-2009 at 06:22 PM
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Dischorran
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icon Re: Gigantic Jewel lost (+1)  
Only a few more comments this time - the last rooms of Lava Land have been resisting my best efforts to solve them.
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I agree with Rheb that you should probably do whatever it takes to permit backtracking through the solved stalwart rooms.

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04-10-2009 at 08:34 PM
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Zch
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icon Re: Gigantic Jewel lost (+1)  
quote:
Dischorran wrote:
Only a few more comments this time - the last rooms of Lava Land have been resisting my best efforts to solve them.
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I agree with Rheb that you should probably do whatever it takes to permit backtracking through the solved stalwart rooms.


Sigh, mimics break everything. I don't understand how we keep missin these things.
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04-10-2009 at 09:54 PM
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Zch
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icon Re: Gigantic Jewel lost (+1)  
And heres another update.

I fixed the proble in Lava Land 5S, the door is now opened with scripting on both ways. So no more opening door with mimic.

I also changed Underground Lake slightly, so that player may return to center from 2S. After 2S he is stuck and has to complete the whole stalwart run to return.

I have this nagging feeling that these changes can cause problems, but I don't seem to find any. Maybe it's just me being paranoid about such big changes...

Oh, and there was unintended solution in 2S: you could kill the only waterskipper in room with decoy and walk out. That is also fixed now.
04-10-2009 at 10:28 PM
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Rheb
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icon Re: Gigantic Jewel lost (+1)  
Ok, I'll need a demo for UL: 2N2W too :(

This room I'd really like a little easier. The stalwart technique is really messy, (and not very fun), and the room is hard. I think many players with me would give up on it.

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04-12-2009 at 09:19 PM
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Zch
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File: GJL Underground Lake 2N2W Victory.demo (3.2 KB)
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icon Re: Gigantic Jewel lost (0)  
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Rheb wrote:
Ok, I'll need a demo for UL: 2N2W too :(

This room I'd really like a little easier. The stalwart technique is really messy, (and not very fun), and the room is hard. I think many players with me would give up on it.


Here's the demo. This is indeed a pretty challenging room. Maybe even a bit too much. And the next room is another hard room I'm affraid :( But after that it will get easier.
04-12-2009 at 10:13 PM
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Dischorran
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icon Re: Gigantic Jewel lost (+1)  
I've gotten through a few more rooms; Lava Lamp 4S1E and 2S2W are still incomplete, and not coincidentally both have the appearance of rather long rooms requiring brute force to solve. EDIT: Solved 4S1E, not looking forward to 2S2W. EDIT AGAIN: apparently rock giants like staying at the point of a diagonal sword. Weird. On to the next level.
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Also, if anyone solves Underground Lake 1S1W the intended way, I wouldn't mind seeing a demo since it annoyed me even more than the rooms that Rheb's been complaining about. Maybe I missed something.

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[Last edited by Dischorran at 04-13-2009 07:25 AM]
04-13-2009 at 06:06 AM
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Zch
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File: GJL Underground Lake 1S1W Victory.demo (4 KB)
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icon Re: Gigantic Jewel lost (+1)  
quote:
Dischorran wrote:
I've gotten through a few more rooms; Lava Lamp 4S1E and 2S2W are still incomplete, and not coincidentally both have the appearance of rather long rooms requiring brute force to solve. EDIT: Solved 4S1E, not looking forward to 2S2W. EDIT AGAIN: apparently rock giants like staying at the point of a diagonal sword. Weird. On to the next level.
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Also, if anyone solves Underground Lake 1S1W the intended way, I wouldn't mind seeing a demo since it annoyed me even more than the rooms that Rheb's been complaining about. Maybe I missed something.


Thank you for the comments. I'll attach a demo for Underground Lake 1S1W. A little under 1500 moves is quite lot, but manipulating platforms and waiting for gel to grow is slow... This room could be made easier by marking the correct solution with lighting, but it would kinda ruin it. I mean the puzzle is to find destructable gel shape that can be built from the platform pieces given.
The platform manipulation, waiting for the gel to grow and later destroying it again are the boring and unchallenging part of the room. Which we tried to make as easy as possible.

About rooms in Lava Land
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04-13-2009 at 10:32 AM
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Rheb
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icon Re: Gigantic Jewel lost (+1)  
I cleared it! (2N1W) It was messy, but at least I liked the little trick in this room :)

(I used two platforms, that seemed the intended way to solve it.)

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04-13-2009 at 12:56 PM
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Dischorran
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icon Re: Gigantic Jewel lost (+1)  
Here's the demo.

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04-13-2009 at 02:43 PM
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Zch
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icon Re: Gigantic Jewel lost (+1)  
quote:
Dischorran wrote:
Here's the demo.


Thanks. That was solution very unintended. Added obstacle to (26,25) to prevent mimic from exiting the circle after killing the golem.
04-13-2009 at 05:09 PM
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Dischorran
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Zch wrote:
Thanks. That was solution very unintended. Added obstacle to (26,25) to prevent mimic from exiting the circle after killing the golem.
But I liked that solution! I suppose I should also mention that my definition of an "obscure trick" is "a trick I don't know."

Molten Core reminds me of some of the nastier old-school holds, except with aumtlich, which is for the most part not a bad thing. The one flaw running through it is that I totally don't get multi-wraithwing movement, so there're a lot of random walks in my solutions as I try to get them into position.
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04-14-2009 at 02:04 AM
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Dischorran
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icon Re: Gigantic Jewel lost (0)  
quote:
Zch wrote:
Thank you for the comments. I'll attach a demo for Underground Lake 1S1W. A little under 1500 moves is quite lot, but manipulating platforms and waiting for gel to grow is slow... This room could be made easier by marking the correct solution with lighting, but it would kinda ruin it. I mean the puzzle is to find destructable gel shape that can be built from the platform pieces given.
The platform manipulation, waiting for the gel to grow and later destroying it again are the boring and unchallenging part of the room. Which we tried to make as easy as possible.

I've watched the demo and appreciate the regular, symmetric solution. However, it's an unfortunate fact of DROD platforms that it's simply not possible to move them around easily enough for complicated puzzles - I've had to compromise at least one of my own rooms because of this. Thus far, this is the only room that would make me consider giving up on the hold.

It's a good puzzle, but I do think you need to decrease the solution space given the difficulty of rearranging platforms. This might be done by highlighting the north and south furthest boundaries of the intended path, by putting an island at one point on the intended path to force the path through that point, or by putting obstacles opposite the "points" of the path to hint at the appropriate zig-zag. Or move it to a secret room and put something more tractable in its place.

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04-14-2009 at 04:50 AM
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icon Re: Gigantic Jewel lost (0)  
And one last room:

1S1E: Elegant little manipulation puzzle, solved after setting the hold aside for a day. Got rid of one wraithwing immediately.

Both stairways in the Entrance end the hold! Since I can't check anything in the editor, it looks like I won't get to try out my new toy until this is fixed. While you're at it, a checkpoint by the exit stairs is standard procedure.

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04-15-2009 at 12:23 AM
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Kallor
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icon Re: Gigantic Jewel lost (0)  
Oops oops that's a total accident of course. And your solution at Molten Core 3S1W was unintended as you suspected, we'll see if something can be done about it.

-Kallor

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04-15-2009 at 10:44 AM
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icon Re: Gigantic Jewel lost (+1)  
Hmm... We mastered the hold before we submitted it to this board, so the stairs at Molten Core were working on that point.

Now when I look this room on the editor, the upper stairs are End Hold but the lower stairs work as they are supposed.

And in your version both stairs are end hold.

We had similar problems when we were building this hold. Sometimes things like special characters or stair-entrance-links just disappearead. And other things like custom graphics seemed to duplicate (every custom image this hold uses is listed two times on the image selection screen, except a few images that were added wery late).

There seems to be weird bug(s) in the editor. This worries me. If the editor randomly alters my hold how can I ever be sure that the hold I upload is working properly :(

Anyway, I'll fix the stairs and upload a new version. Lets hope that it'll work.
04-15-2009 at 10:45 AM
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icon Re: Gigantic Jewel lost (0)  
Now the upper stairs are fine, but the lower stairs end the hold. So I can keep going with the hold, but it might be time for a post over in Bugs.

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04-15-2009 at 03:37 PM
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Zch
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Another update:

I tried to change the stairs destinations in molten core, but it is hard to do anything about them, as the editor says everything is fine.

Also fixed the unintended solution on MC 3S1E
04-15-2009 at 06:57 PM
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The lower stairs still end the hold. I really don't know what to do about that, but at least the ones going forward work. Maybe you can wait for someone else to get to the Molten Core and see if it works for them.

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04-15-2009 at 11:21 PM
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Rheb
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icon Re: Gigantic Jewel lost (+1)  
It seems unintended that the pressure plate at 35,20 does nothing in UL: 1N. The room becomes pretty trivial if it doesn't close the entrance door.


I'm through the stalwart rooms now. In general I can say that you have some really cool ideas for stalwart based puzzles. But you still won't get around the fact that stalwarts are a random and pretty crappy puzzle element from the start. In some of the less messy parts I enjoyed guiding the stalwart, trying to improve my tactics, but not as much as I enjoyed some of the better puzzles in the first level.

As I've said before, I'd like a few rooms to be a bit easier. (IMO) There are too much trial and error parts in all of these rooms (plus the fact that they're linear) to make them any fun if they are hard. In some points I almost put the hold aside, but then I remembered the awesome first level, and decided that I should continue struggling, or ask for help. If this had been the first level of the hold, I would probably not have played this far :(

Here's the room specific comments:

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Sorry if I sound too negative. I really admire that you've managed to create several fun puzzles using stalwart!

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[Last edited by Rheb at 04-15-2009 11:31 PM]
04-15-2009 at 11:25 PM
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