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13th Slayer
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Beef Row wrote:
13th Slayer wrote:
rman wrote:
I pirated TCB, too, but first I tried to buy it. They took money and didn't give TCB!!!

(oh, and I also pirated KDD 2.0 and JtRH from one place, TCB from another!)
aw, geez. And all of it is my fault...
I still hope you will reconsider and buy a game someday...

Why your fault? Did you tell rman where to download pirated DROD by any chance?
well, i recomended
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to get pirated stuff. I also mentioned a possibility of getting drod free. I pirated Jrh too, but then i bought it
08-14-2008 at 03:45 AM
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Snacko
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Illegal activities in secret tags are still illegal activities.

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08-14-2008 at 05:42 AM
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kyevan
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Except that bittorrent is not, in and of itself, illegal. It depends on what you're downloading.
08-14-2008 at 05:50 AM
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Beef Row
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13th Slayer wrote:
well, i recomended
Click here to view the secret text
to get pirated stuff. I also mentioned a possibility of getting drod free. I pirated Jrh too, but then i bought it

Still no trophy by your name. Tell you what, if you can get that free month of caravelnet you already should have because you bought JTRH active within the next week, I'll pay for you to have a full year of caravelnet. So if you just never bothered with that email, now would be a great time to check it out, or email support.

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08-14-2008 at 06:05 AM
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13th Slayer
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Beef Row wrote:
13th Slayer wrote:
well, i recomended
Click here to view the secret text
to get pirated stuff. I also mentioned a possibility of getting drod free. I pirated Jrh too, but then i bought it

Still no trophy by your name. Tell you what, if you can get that free month of caravelnet you already should have because you bought JTRH active within the next week, I'll pay for you to have a full year of caravelnet. So if you just never bothered with that email, now would be a great time to check it out, or email support.
каравелнет? I mean, caravelnet? Not in russian version, that i bought in a shop. Still i paid for it!
08-14-2008 at 06:24 AM
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calamarain
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Please excuse me if this sounds preachy because it's not meant to.

If you are willing to spend the time, or know the right people - you can pirate almost anything. Music, films, games etc. The same goes for DROD. There are a few reasons why the majority of forum members didn't pirate DROD...

1) They have only AE and the demo versions - which they consider to be sufficient - this is a reasonable percentage of the forum
2) They bought a copy of JtRH/TCB because they believe piracy in general is wrong
3) They bought a copy of JtRH/TCB because although they could have pirated it, and indeed they have pirated other stuff occasionally... they believe DROD is good enough to be worth the money. (I'm in this category)

Now, I'd like to believe that those of us who've pirated stuff fall into category 3. We *could* pirate DROD, but we don't because we believe it's a good game and worth supporting financially.

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08-14-2008 at 03:23 PM
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slimm tom
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13th Slayer wrote:
каравелнет? I mean, caravelnet? Not in russian version, that i bought in a shop. Still i paid for it!

That must be an illegal version, as Caravel Games hasn't licensed any shop to sell their games on disk.

EDIT:Calamarain, I'm in category 3. Indie developers are high in my list when it comes to legally purchasing games, as they really need the financial support to continue with making games.

[Last edited by slimm tom at 08-14-2008 04:01 PM]
08-14-2008 at 03:26 PM
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Maurog
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Yes it did, Caravel was cooperating with Akella to distribute DROD in Russia. Both King Dugan's Dungeon and Journey to Rooted Hold were localized and distributed on disks.

http://ru.akella.com/Game.aspx?id=889
http://ru.akella.com/Game.aspx?id=202

I am really not sure if these had CaravelNet support, but I suspect not.

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08-14-2008 at 03:35 PM
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slimm tom
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Maurog wrote:
Yes it did, Caravel was cooperating with Akella to distribute DROD in Russia. Both King Dugan's Dungeon and Journey to Rooted Hold were localized and distributed on disks.

http://ru.akella.com/Game.aspx?id=889
http://ru.akella.com/Game.aspx?id=202

I am really not sure if these had CaravelNet support, but I suspect not.

Hmm, I didn't know that, I'm sorry. And no, I don't think they have CaravelNet support.
08-14-2008 at 03:58 PM
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13th Slayer
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slimm tom wrote:
Maurog wrote:
Yes it did, Caravel was cooperating with Akella to distribute DROD in Russia. Both King Dugan's Dungeon and Journey to Rooted Hold were localized and distributed on disks.

http://ru.akella.com/Game.aspx?id=889
http://ru.akella.com/Game.aspx?id=202

I am really not sure if these had CaravelNet support, but I suspect not.

they support it, but no free month when buying
Hmm, I didn't know that, I'm sorry. And no, I don't think they have CaravelNet support.
08-14-2008 at 05:39 PM
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kyevan
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13th Slayer wrote:
slimm tom wrote:
Maurog wrote:
Yes it did, Caravel was cooperating with Akella to distribute DROD in Russia. Both King Dugan's Dungeon and Journey to Rooted Hold were localized and distributed on disks.

http://ru.akella.com/Game.aspx?id=889
http://ru.akella.com/Game.aspx?id=202

I am really not sure if these had CaravelNet support, but I suspect not.

Hmm, I didn't know that, I'm sorry. And no, I don't think they have CaravelNet support.
they support it, but no free month when buying

Please don't put words in peoples mouths like that, it makes things a lot harder to figure out.
08-14-2008 at 06:34 PM
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Syntax
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calamarain wrote:
3) They bought a copy of JtRH/TCB because although they could have pirated it, and indeed they have pirated other stuff occasionally... they believe DROD is good enough to be worth the money. (I'm in this category)
That's my angle too
08-15-2008 at 05:08 AM
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Blondbeard
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Well... That's kind of my angle too, but with the added reason of purpose. If Erik had owned more milions than he could count I wouldn't have felt there was any point of feeding more money into his bank acount. As it is now I buy more products than what is my need (like SmS CDs while I got the holds for free via CaravelNet anyway), because I feel that my money is needed to support a game that I love.
08-15-2008 at 06:00 AM
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BeefontheBone
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I've never pirated a game - not because I think it's automatically wrong (I've downloaded TV shows and movies, though generally because they've been released in the States before I can get my hands on them here, I just missed them on the telly, they're not available to buy or I don't think I'll watch them more than once) but because I A. don't need to, I already buy games at a much quicker rate than I finish them, B. I, like many people above, tend to play indie games as much as mainstream ones and those guys need the money, and C. there are more than enough free games to keep me occupied.
The number of hours I've spent playing a handful of games - TFC and TF2, Audiosurf, various roguelikes (need to play Dwarf Fortress properly, but Crawl keeps distracting me), Civilization, etc. - dwarfs the rest.

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08-15-2008 at 06:54 PM
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enzi666
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calamarain wrote:
Indie developers are high in my list when it comes to legally purchasing games, as they really need the financial support to continue with making games.

Yeah, same here. Stealing from an indie developer just isn't right. I mean, it's always wrong. But an indie developer suffers much much more from pirating as a big developer. And the most important thing. In Drods case, I know where I'm spending my money.

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08-26-2008 at 08:50 AM
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Yellow_Mage
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Pirating form indie developers is just making their job that they love even harder. I know the reason why people pirate, sometimes people get a bit overexcited about a game that they don't have the money for or availability to and download it and expect to pay for it later, but they don't. Don't. Because there is no ethical justification regarding new games at all. With DROD I got my friend to buy it for me and I gave him the money since he's got a credit card (my card wouldn't work on the order page, living in the UK and all that jazz but there are other methods of payment available, also these top-up paying cards that can be used online liked Tuxedo IIRC).

I've pirated games. Bad. I pretty much spend most of my money on games and if I had more money I would spend more, but there are some people that have intention on spending money for games; they get my goat. Pretty much waiting for emulators for all their answers, critising games for being bad for their reasons for downloading and wondering why creativity in videogames has become somewhat lacking.

Mind I haven't spent and money on games for a long while or bought anything this year and a bit as this been much a "fallow" year for games and the whole console indecision. I haven't even played DROD for a long while as well, probably more than 10 months. </ramble>

Anyways, take 40 licks from a tree branch. Love games, buy them simply.

I'm still waiting for Braid on PC, dammit. I don't like it being on XBLA first arrrghhh... yeah, I'm rambling again...

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08-27-2008 at 04:01 AM
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Fafnir
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I very rarely pirate - if I'm interested in a game, the developers generally deserve money for it. Plus I like having the official CD case. There are three things that will drive me to piracy, though:

1) If you're not interested in selling it to me, I'm not interested in buying it. I have no qualms about downloading abandonware (games that are no longer being sold) or games that will never be released in Europe. I suspect most people wouldn't really consider this piracy in the first place, but I mention it for completeness.

2) If your pricing is less "steep" than "silly", then me downloading the software doesn't really hurt the developers at all since I would never be able to actually buy it. This really applies to things like Mathematica that cost £800+ per copy and don't really have a good open source alternative.

3) If you have loaded your game with so much DRM that the pirated version is noticably better than the official version (generally in a futile effort to prevent piracy), then frankly you no longer deserve my money and I refuse to pay for your malware.

Fortunately the DROD developers are good people at heart, so none of those apply! :)

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08-27-2008 at 02:28 PM
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13th Slayer
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I have to say then, i pirate ALL console games i have. Basically, i like PC more than consoles (Better controls, more memory, etcetetra) I emulate...
08-27-2008 at 05:26 PM
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silver
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you people do know that google crawls these boards, right?


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08-27-2008 at 05:44 PM
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Briareos
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13th Slayer wrote:
I have to say then, i pirate ALL console games i have.
If it weren't a total waste of mod points I would probably have modded you down to one rank point for openly admitting this...

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08-27-2008 at 09:07 PM
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Dischorran
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Briareos wrote:
If he weren't permanently already there I would probably have modded you down to one rank point for openly admitting this...
FTFY. Every village needs a idiot, but this guy could cover a small nation on his lonesome.

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08-27-2008 at 09:38 PM
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AlternativePuzzles
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Dischorran wrote:
Briareos wrote:
If he weren't permanently already there I would probably have modded you down to one rank point for openly admitting this...
FTFY. Every village needs a idiot, but this guy could cover a small nation on his lonesome.
Actually, I've seen him be a traveling guys, you know, like traveling salesmen, they practice the art of idiocy. Really, I've seen him come to Canada, I've even seen him walk the path all the way to Alaska! It's really quite amazing!

...But on a more serious note, the guy might want to make more productive posts. Or, the webmaster could make Negative Mod Points, you know, you need to gain three rank points to shed one Negative. It would really be quite difficult for him to do that, I guess.

;)

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[Last edited by AlternativePuzzles at 08-28-2008 12:23 AM]
08-28-2008 at 12:23 AM
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Banjooie
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Okay, guys, now that you've had your fun.

Dude is Russian.

In Russia, piracy isn't looked at quite the same way as it is here. Specifically, the concept of /not/ pirating software is alien to a lot of these people. I know ruskies. Because I am Banj, and I travel far and wide: Essentially, over there, they look at you funny if you're like 'I bought Photoshop'.

(This is arguably due to the fact that the amount of money you get paid, while very good in Russia and roughly equal in russian buying power, will not do you much good over here in America. A $20 game is a pretty killer investment over there.)

Edit: Basically, guys? A carton of cigarettes runs about the equivalent of 3-4 bucks american.

[Last edited by Banjooie at 08-28-2008 12:48 AM]
08-28-2008 at 12:39 AM
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Beef Row
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Also: if 13th emulates everything odds are well over 95% of those 'pirated' console games are abandonware anyway.

Also also: I've heard some people argue used game shops are hurting console developers at least as badly as piracy is supposed to be hurting PC developers.

If the moral objection to piracy is that it fails to properly reimburse game developers, would that make buying used games as unethical as piracy? (Even more unethical perhaps, since you're supporting a company that profits off selling games without paying the developer.)

I understand what the diffrence is under normal logic but when people act like the only reason in buying rather than stealing is to funnel money directly to the person who made the game, I don't get how used games are 'better' than piracy.

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08-29-2008 at 04:06 AM
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Banjooie
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It's fairly simple.

It is a matter of duplication.

If I purchase from you one apple, you are minus one apple, and plus one amount of money.

If I then sell that apple, you got your money, you don't care. Maybe some other dude would not then buy an apple from you, but you have given one apple, and received one money for one apple. You are still even.

That is used games.

If I purchase from you one apple, and use that to grow an apple tree. I then sell those apples to other people. You have sold one apple, but lost countless apple sales because of it. You are thus angry.

Now: You can argue 'it's his apple, he can do with it what he wants'.

This is where we discover why software is different again: Intellectual Property.

The apple we've been using so far is a standard, public-domain Gala apple. Now let's say it's some sort of SuperApple. Your farm has like, bred a special kind of apple, and you've paid to trademark it and all that.

Now, you're selling them the apple, but the apple is coming with a piece of paper. A contract, if you will, that says, 'You agree not to grow trees from the seeds of this apple'. They agree to that contract by /buying the apple/.

By growing a tree from that apple, they're then breaking the contract, and thus, the law.

So, basically: It's a matter of whether it stays a 1:1 trade of game for money or not.

PErsonally, I don't buy used games anymore.
08-29-2008 at 06:32 AM
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silver
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Bad example, Banj, in light of it's comparison to Monsanto, which we all know is, in actual fact, a nexus of evil so deep that Dante couldn't fathom how to get down to it, so twisted that they make North Korea seem like Eden, and so depraved that Satan forbids his demons to work there lest they give evil a bad name.

The "real" answer is close to what you wrote, but perhaps a little more fundamental. For all of human existence, creation has fallen under a simple model of "making stuff" which can be distributed and owned. The music, movie, and software industries have been trying desperately to make their products fit that model because that's the only kind of economics our society is prepared to understand. You can't get a bank loan to start a business based on another model, you can't even get government recognition that what you're doing is fundamentally different than the prevailing model. As technology slowly eradicates the solutions which they put in place to try to keep their media "protected" (i.e. to keep their media stuck in the old model), they turn to the government to find solutions for them -- "we give up. we can't make people treat these new things as old things, so just jail anyone who doesn't fit our straitjacket". and the government says, "sure. we don't understand the new model, either. so those are probably dangerous subversives we're incarcerating."

Now it becomes very easy to understand. Piracy is breaking the model and offends all the established economic sensibilities enshrined in our corporations and governments and even religions since the beginning of human understanding. Used game stores, on the other hand, perpetuate the old model by treating the disc as a "manufactured widget" which can be "owned."


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[Last edited by silver at 08-29-2008 09:35 AM]
08-29-2008 at 09:23 AM
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Beef Row
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When you plant apple seeds, the apple tree that grows does not produce fruit like its parent. You might not even get an edible apple at all. So no one would actually care if you planted the seeds, you'd have to steal cuttings. Which would kind of be more like breaking into a game companies offices, stealing source code and compiling it yourself.

Actually, that sounds like a hilariously cost ineffective way to pirate.

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08-29-2008 at 09:45 AM
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In the meantime, technology has caught up with apples.

Genetical modification on plants nowadays can cause seeds to be completely infertile. The technology is called "Terminator Technology". In that case, a terminator seed means that farmers will have to buy seeds every time they want to plant (BBC news item). In that case, no contract is needed.

Naturally, farmers are furious about that idea, so not much people are buying those seeds and therefore the companies are making losses. Once again, intellectual property comes to the rescue. So instead of using terminator seeds, they are planting the seeds themselves near other farms, and intentionally cross-pollinating other non-GM crops. Then use patents to sue the other farmers. (for example, lawsuits in US, and Canada)

Not that much to do about it really. As of now, 75-80% of food sold in the US contains GM ingredients; it's not on the labels because it's not required for these companies (link). Even more interesting, there seems to be a link between these Frankencrops and Morgellons disease. (article).

Personally, I don't buy used apples anymore.

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08-29-2008 at 01:11 PM
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Dischorran
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Tim wrote:
Even more interesting, there seems to be a link between these Frankencrops and Morgellons disease. (article).
In that the health problems of both are all psychological? There are plenty of ethical and scientific problems with the GM developers' IP techniques and preference for weedkiller-resistant crops, but the end product's the same as it always was, maybe even better. Popping an extra gene into corn doesn't make it, y'know, not corn. Avoid it if you like to support small farmers, but it's not going to make you sick or bring God's wrath down on you for messing with nature. As for Morgellon's, if you read those links you passed on, there's exactly no evidence cited for a link to GM crops, and the fibers are, well, lint, which has this way of getting into open sores touched by clothing. It's a psychological disorder - as such, very real, but not actually caused by microorganisms (or GM crops).

Why yes, this does all seem highly appropriate for a piracy thread. Why do you ask?

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08-29-2008 at 04:32 PM
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Tim
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Dischorran wrote:
There are plenty of ethical and scientific problems with the GM developers' IP techniques and preference for weedkiller-resistant crops, but the end product's the same as it always was, maybe even better. Popping an extra gene into corn doesn't make it, y'know, not corn. Avoid it if you like to support small farmers, but it's not going to make you sick or bring God's wrath down on you for messing with nature.
You are wrong here. Really wrong. An apple with an extra gene may have the look and feel of a normal apple, but it isn't. It might be a "better" apple, but it might also become poisonous by the same gene. And unlike Snow White, who has a charming prince, I'd have to choose carefully. (link to article with much better explanation)
Why yes, this does all seem highly appropriate for a piracy thread. Why do you ask?
Well, I didn't brought up the apple analogy in the first place. So you shouldn't be asking me.
I'm only here to say that the apple analogy was not really appropriate.

Second, I haven't pirated any of the DROD games for incredibly obvious reasons.

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08-31-2008 at 02:49 AM
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