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Jatopian
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07-29-2009 at 11:58 PM
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Someone Else
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I'll concede on (1).
(2) "Creationism explains exactly what it's supposed to: the origin of Life, the Universe, and Everything. Of course it doesn't predict anything, it's a theory of the origin of life." Then in what sense can it explain anything? A theory with no predictive power is like Calvin's dad explaining that wind is caused by trees sneezing. Might be true, might not, and if true then it does give a picture of the causation underlying observed events -- but it's not clear what part of any of this deserves to be called an explanation. An explanation should be something that makes parts of a picture fall into place so that you can see something simpler underlying them and bringing them together.
I mean that it doesn't predict anything in the future. While this may not be entirely useful, that doesn't mean that it's incorrect.

(3) "Everything (or at least a lot) of the things in the Bible that can be proven have, so it follows logically that that which cannot be proven is also correct." That's not logic, it's induction -- the same principle that underlies the discovery of scientific truths. But in this case it's faulty induction. If 999 randomly chosen statements from a book all turn out to be true, you can be pretty sure that the thousandth is probably also true. But if a book has sections on history and sections on theology, and the historical sections turn out to be true, that doesn't guarantee anything about the theology. They're such different fields that even if the book was written by one writer, it would be entirely plausible that he knew lots about history and nothing about theology.
Alright, it's induction. Either way, there are still a fair amount of theological stuff that has turned out to be true - prophesies and the like. For example, there are a number of prophesies, that when worked out provide the year that Israel was accepted by most of the world as a country. Remember, none of the Bible was written past 1000AD, and Israel became a country in the 1940s. I know this is hardly convincing evidence, but it's there.

(4) "Evolutionists are the same way about Evolution. They say that Creation is not a viable scientific theory (neither is Evolution, by the way), but then make arguments against Creation as if it proves Evolution." I'm not responsible for what any particular evolutionist has said, but even if some of them have used this faulty reasoning, that doesn't disprove evolution. The fact is, evolutionists are keen to make arguments against creationism because many people are convinced of the truth of creationism and need to be unconvinced before they will look at the evidence for evolution with an open mind. But the evidence is there; there are a lot more reasons why I believe in evolution than just because I don't believe in creationism.
Here I was just responding to Maurog. I don't think this disproves evolution.

(5) As for evolution "not being a viable scientific theory", I'd like to know why you think that -- as the only thing you've said so far that really carries bite, it deserved a little more respect than being confined to a parenthetical comment. If your main argument here is that we can't get into a time machine and observe the evolution of the giraffe, I wonder whether for the same reason you would say that geology is not scientific, or astronomy, or even the reconstruction of unrecorded proto-languages in linguistics. All the knowledge we have comes from observing the present state of the world, but in all these cases we can make hypotheses about what the past must have been like for the present to be the way it is, use these hypotheses to make predictions about as-yet unknown aspects of the present state of things, and test these predictions. Sounds pretty scientific to me.
But as I said before, Evolution is not scientific. This is simply because science is, by definition, "The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena [and activities thereof]." http://www.answers.com/science Because the origin of life and species cannot be observed, Evolution (or, more correctly, the Theory of the Origin of Species) cannot be a scientific theory.
This isn't saying that evolution is wrong, but instead that it is not a scientific theory and should not be treated as such. Like it or not, believing in Evolution is equal to having a religion.

Why do we need new anti biotics, as bacteria somehow evolves to become drug resistant? That's positive proof of evolution.
No, actually it's not. Evolution requires organisms to gain genetic information. In drug resistance, what happens is a certain bacteria will lose the ability to let in or use a certain drug. Because most drugs are beneficial in low quantities (alcohol, in low doses, improves the ability to think clearly. However, after that very low dose it quickly degrades the ability to think.), the bacteria which lose this ability are less fit to survive than the bacteria who didn't lose that ability, except in circumstances where that particular drug is present. The ability they lose is sometimes the ability to transport a similar, more important molecule.

So, for NiroZ's link to "New Testament Contradictions", I'll correct whoever wrote that misunderstandings.
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Just to be clear, we are talking about macro evolution, not micro evolution (i.e. adaption), which very few people disagree with.
07-30-2009 at 01:08 AM
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NiroZ
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Well if you concede micro evolution, you concede macro evolution. Because to concede micro evolution, you have to admit that genes change over time, and morph the species in different way. For example, in the last 70 years, one species of lizard in north america, since the advent of an introduced species of ant, grew longer legs in order to shake them off. So why can't a species change so much that it's mating habits shift in such a way to exclude other species that it used to mate with.

How is evolution a religion? It has no supernatural theories, discusses nothing about the soul (something every religion known to man does). It is as much a religion as the theory of gravity. Neither have been directly observed (although evolution is better understood), but we can see the effect of both. You've admitted yourself that parts of evolution is true anyway. (micro evolution)

When it comes to prophecies, if you make enough, and make them vague enough, some will always come true. Just watch people as they incorrectly piece together revelations to make a prediction that the end is soon. It's truly saddening to watch how scared they are when they inevitably come to the conclusion that the end is nigh. Also, given an infinite amount of time, most things will happen.

As for the inconsistantices, scroll to the last one. Also try the inconsistant census data and the dispute over nazareth (both have references if case you don't like wikipedia)

Also, why is there imperfect design if we are created by intelligent being. For example, the panda's thumb is in fact a lump of skin, rather than being a rather useful thumb like we have. Why do we have our photorecptors at the back of our eye, with all our neural circuitry in front of it, rather than the other way around, like in squid?

I'll also repost this because you seem to have missed it. If your going to dismiss the fossil record, why are there no rabbits in the pre-cambrian? Why has there been yet to be one thing that has been found to be irreducibly complex?
07-30-2009 at 02:41 AM
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Dischorran
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What you leave unanswered in the prophesies business is how many possibilities can be predicted from the Bible that didn't come true.

As for the antibiotic resistance claim, original sources in science tend to require academic subscriptions (this is changing, but slowly), but I can point you toward the wikipedia page on "penicillin binding proteins" which states fairly clearly that penicillin resistance often comes not from loss of function, but change of function. Small change of function, of course, since we're looking at the first and therefore easiest thing to pop up in a population. I would also point out that betalactamase, which is secreted by bacteria to degrade penicillin, turns out to have a structure remarkably similar to an existing bacterial protein (specifically, more similar than one would expect either by function or by chance), but "God just wanted it that way" simultaneously explains everything and nothing. The wikipedia page on "directed evolution" is unfortunately brief, but its links are a decent starting point to the synthetic use of a highly increased rate of mutagenesis on single proteins in vitro to look at functional changes on a more convenient time scale.

And as for evolution being religion, that requires an extremely loose definition of religion as being any belief about the world's history, and I don't think you really mean to suggest that Christianity is similar to plate tectonics - see also Robobob's point. And again, you bring up micro vs. macro evolution (which is largely the same as microgravity making things fall to earth vs. macrogravity making planets orbit the sun), but fail to hold yourself to the same standard expected of science by demonstrating even microcreation.

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07-30-2009 at 03:07 AM
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NiroZ
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I'm also curious to know if you agree with Matthew 15:4 (For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'), Exodus 21:17("Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.) and Leviticus 20:9 ("'If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head.)

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07-30-2009 at 03:27 AM
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NiroZ
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I think it's perfectly fitting to have this discussion in a 'no escalators' thread.
07-30-2009 at 04:21 AM
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Dischorran
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It's our thread now.

And since you've gotten yourself involved, Google "FUD" for more information on why a binary choice between mathematical proof and indistinguishable equality is a very, very bad idea.

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07-30-2009 at 04:24 AM
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Rabscuttle
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To me, the most interesting question about the Israel prophecy thing is: When did someone first match that the dates?
My impression from my five-minute googling is that there's a little bit of fiddling with the numbers, so it seems unlikely someone would have picked it beforehand.


Also, ring species are cool.
07-30-2009 at 05:15 AM
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I can't answer in depth now (I'm on my wii), but two people brought up the point that Evolution is not religion. That's not the point. It's not science, and should not be treated as such.
07-30-2009 at 05:28 AM
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As long as it explains the current facts and makes falsifiable predictions about future facts, it is a scientific theory.
And again, even if the theory of evolution was somehow completely disproven, it wouldn't make creation the tiniest bit more valid.

Also, kindly stop copy-pasting from websites which lump abiogenesis with evolution, then blame evolution for not explaining the origins of life. It's a ridiculous tactic, discrediting the source completely due to the sheer amount of ignorance you need to do this.

And as long as we're slinging links, I'll go with this.

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07-30-2009 at 05:46 AM
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Dischorran
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Still harping on evolution not being science? Read your own post.

"The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena" is overly dry and proscriptive, but we'll go with it. I go from observations of species and descriptions of exactly how mutations occur down to the molecular level, to investigation of their genome, to a theoretical explanation of how mutations (and other random events - of particular interest is the very clear symbiosis between different organisms way back when to produce what are now mitochondria and chloroplasts) produce this difference in species from a common ancestor. That's science.

Do you prefer astronomy? We can construct an analogy to black holes. Black holes are strongly predicted by theory, essentially all phenomena predicted to be associated with them have been seen, we have not yet observed one directly (but seem to be getting very close), and we are not exactly anywhere near actually taking a star ourselves and making it collapse into one to see if it works. But we don't say that they may or may not exist because we haven't actually made a singularity in the lab, or that astrophysics isn't science - we stick an asterisk by it and work with what we have until we either fill in the gaps or a better theory comes along. The difference with evolution (note the small e) is that it strikes closer to home.

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07-30-2009 at 06:46 AM
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NiroZ
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Someone Else wrote:
two people brought up the point that Evolution is not religion. That's not the point.
Someone Else wrote:
Like it or not, believing in Evolution is equal to having a religion.



[Last edited by NiroZ at 07-30-2009 08:35 AM]
07-30-2009 at 08:34 AM
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Rabscuttle
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Someone Else wrote:
(5) As for evolution "not being a viable scientific theory", I'd like to know why you think that -- as the only thing you've said so far that really carries bite, it deserved a little more respect than being confined to a parenthetical comment. If your main argument here is that we can't get into a time machine and observe the evolution of the giraffe, I wonder whether for the same reason you would say that geology is not scientific, or astronomy, or even the reconstruction of unrecorded proto-languages in linguistics. All the knowledge we have comes from observing the present state of the world, but in all these cases we can make hypotheses about what the past must have been like for the present to be the way it is, use these hypotheses to make predictions about as-yet unknown aspects of the present state of things, and test these predictions. Sounds pretty scientific to me.
But as I said before, Evolution is not scientific. This is simply because science is, by definition, "The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena [and activities thereof]." http://www.answers.com/science Because the origin of life and species cannot be observed, Evolution (or, more correctly, the Theory of the Origin of Species) cannot be a scientific theory.
This isn't saying that evolution is wrong, but instead that it is not a scientific theory and should not be treated as such. Like it or not, believing in Evolution is equal to having a religion.

I think you misunderstand what 'observation' means in this context. Observations are essentially pieces of data. If you want to work out the size of the earth - you don't need to find a really really really long measuring tape. Your observations could consist of measuring the noon-time shadow of a pole at different locations. (as well as the observations that lead you to the conclusion that the earth is a sphere)
You then use some trigonometry to come up with a number. And you can then test that result by making predictions and further observations. (and you'll get some interesting (ie not what you were expecting) results because of altitude and the fact that the earth isn't a perfect sphere.)

For evolution, our data consists of all life. What it looks like, where it lives, how it interacts with other life. We can now map genomes. And there's the fossil record that gives information on where, how and when life used to be. When we make new observations we can make predictions on what we expect to find - this is why palaentologists look for certain types of fossils in particular places.

If you're in a forest and come across a horizontal tree lying on the ground, there's disturbed earth near its roots and there are crushed bushes beneath it, then it is reasonable to say that it fell, even if no-one was there to see (or hear) it.
07-30-2009 at 09:14 AM
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Snacko
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That's only considering that history occurs chronologically while we're not looking (which is most of the time).

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07-30-2009 at 09:27 AM
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NiroZ
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If what your saying is true, someone else, then it means that the atom is pseudoscience (which is I think the word your looking for), because nobody has directly observed the atom.
07-30-2009 at 09:30 AM
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NiroZ
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Snacko wrote:
That's only considering that history occurs chronologically while we're not looking (which is most of the time).
:huh
07-30-2009 at 09:31 AM
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Rabscuttle
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NiroZ wrote:
Snacko wrote:
That's only considering that history occurs chronologically while we're not looking (which is most of the time).
:huh

A watched pot never boils!
07-30-2009 at 09:48 AM
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Snacko
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Rabscuttle wrote:
NiroZ wrote:
Snacko wrote:
That's only considering that history occurs chronologically while we're not looking (which is most of the time).
:huh

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NO MORE RAINBOWS

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07-30-2009 at 09:54 AM
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Rabscuttle
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Snacko wrote:
Rabscuttle wrote:
NiroZ wrote:
Snacko wrote:
Rabscuttle writes:

Why would you boil the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow?

07-31-2009 at 04:07 AM
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Someone Else
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NiroZ wrote:
I'm also curious to know if you agree with Matthew 15:4 (For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'), Exodus 21:17("Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.) and Leviticus 20:9 ("'If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head.)
Sorry, but I really was expecting this to be a large enough forum to get some support, and I can't do all of one side on my own. Not that I'm conceding, but I just have too many other things I'm trying to do. But I have one final point about this quote.
If I were a Jew, I might have problems with this. However, Christians believe that Jesus came to fulfil the law, and in doing so many of the old restrictions and commandments are no longer valid. Just as people don't do animal sacrifices any more, many of the other restrictions in the old testament don't apply any more.

But thanks everyone for an amusing (if short) debate.

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07-31-2009 at 04:11 AM
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Sillyman
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Rabscuttle wrote:
If you're in a forest and come across a horizontal tree lying on the ground, there's disturbed earth near its roots and there are crushed bushes beneath it, then it is reasonable to say that it fell, even if no-one was there to see (or hear) it.

And yet not known. While one could use that as an axiom to produce a reasonable argument in the absence of proof, it is not a proper theorem.

This argument can be used by either side, and should, in my opinion, be used whenever necessary, as firstly, I do not wish my opponent in a debate to take an unfair advantage by logical fallacy, and secondly, I do not wish to be embarrassed by my own side.

One more thing I wish to say to adamant evolutionists: This is a problem for forensics, not the scientific/experimental method. Even if you demonstrate that evolution is a valid theory to explain the divergence of life by showing that it happens (which you haven't yet done, as far as I know), you still haven't proven that that was how it happened. (and thus, conceding microevolution is not conceding macroevolution)

Obviously, direct creationists do not have to deal with this fallacy, as any proof of possibility should immediately lead to a proof of occurrence, for obvious reasons. ("Hey God, did you do what you just did to originate life, particularly human life?")

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07-31-2009 at 04:15 AM
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Where I live, free religion is protected by law, so these fanclubs for imaginary dictators in the sky are generally kept from having anything to do with law beyond the basic moral code that developed out of the theocracy.

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07-31-2009 at 04:28 AM
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Dischorran
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So basically, your argument is that extrapolation is not a valid technique. I cannot assume that if evolution *can* occur and is the only way to generate diversity of life using known mechanisms, that it did occur that way. I cannot assume that a log is the result of a fallen tree. I cannot assume that because I am posting on this board, the other messages I see on the board are human-generated. I cannot assume that the memory of a creator acknowledging creation did not arise through some other mechanism. I cannot assume that other people don't instantly vanish when I close my eyes.

Logically, the point holds, but it inevitably leads to solipsism if applied rigorously. I challenge you to apply it to everything, not just what you prefer not to believe, if you're going to cite it in this case. Speaking for myself, I remember the general argument from high school, and quickly came to the pragmatic conclusion that it was entirely untenable in practice; your mileage may vary.

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07-31-2009 at 04:47 AM
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NiroZ
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Someone Else wrote:
NiroZ wrote:
I'm also curious to know if you agree with Matthew 15:4 (For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'), Exodus 21:17("Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.) and Leviticus 20:9 ("'If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head.)
Sorry, but I really was expecting this to be a large enough forum to get some support, and I can't do all of one side on my own. Not that I'm conceding, but I just have too many other things I'm trying to do. But I have one final point about this quote.
If I were a Jew, I might have problems with this. However, Christians believe that Jesus came to fulfil the law, and in doing so many of the old restrictions and commandments are no longer valid. Just as people don't do animal sacrifices any more, many of the other restrictions in the old testament don't apply any more.

But thanks everyone for an amusing (if short) debate.
Er, matthew is in the new testament. Jesus said this. My point is, you don't take everything in the bible seriously. As a further question, upon what criteria do you accept what is in some of the bible, and not in others?


07-31-2009 at 06:44 AM
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No, you're taking it out of context. I take everything in the Bible seriously. Jesus there was talking to the Pharisees about their hypocrisy. The old testament law, while no longer law because of Jesus' sacrifice, is still worth studying to better understanding God. I think the easiest way to explain it is that I believe the Apostles Creed:
1. I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
2. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
4. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
5. He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again.
6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
8. I believe in the Holy Spirit,
9. the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,
10. the forgiveness of sins,
11. the resurrection of the body,
12. and the life everlasting.
Amen.
And the Bible supports all of this, and does not contradict it, so I believe in the Bible taken as a whole, not specific verses taken from it, as you seem to be doing, and as some Christian groups have done.
07-31-2009 at 06:02 PM
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NiroZ
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You have every right to believe that.

But Jesus clearly was affirming it as gods word. Notice it is 'For God said' X (matt 15:4), then he says 'But you say that' Y. 'You hypocrites!'
07-31-2009 at 07:43 PM
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NiroZ
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In order to accept the bible as a whole, you must accept it's parts. Basic gestalt theory man. Do you believe that god grants either choice or free will? Because the old testament clearly contradicts that too (pharaoh having his heart hardened and all) Furthermore, there are several instances where it is perfectly acceptable to give out female household members to be gang raped, in order to protect male guests.
07-31-2009 at 07:49 PM
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I always find it funny that God supposedly have planted lots of false evidence (like fossiles, half-times etc.), which when presented to the human mind, which he supposedly also have created, looks as if the words in his holy text looks like those of a mad man with no regard for evidence.

It is also funny that his actions, when looked at objectivly with that same mind (and by objectivly I mean without taking into acount who he is), looks like those of a psycopath, rather than the actions of a loving father. This applies to (among other things) the killing of every first born child in Egypt.

To me it's a bit odd to not take the old testament with a large grain of salt, even if you are a Christian.
07-31-2009 at 07:52 PM
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Careful when you judge christians, they're a diverse bunch, as some do pretty much reject the old testament and some accept evolution (Indeed, I'm surprised at Someone Else's position given the stance of the catholic church)

Indeed, I've met a christian who goes to atheist meetings, believes in an infinite regression of gods, and only bit she understands of the bible is that Jesus forgave her sins, thus she's free to do what she wants.

[Last edited by NiroZ at 07-31-2009 08:22 PM]
07-31-2009 at 08:19 PM
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Blondbeard
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NiroZ wrote:
Careful when you judge christians, they're a diverse bunch, as some do pretty much reject the old testament and some accept evolution (Indeed, I'm surprised at Someone Else's position given the stance of the catholic church)

Indeed, I've met a christian who goes to atheist meetings, believes in an infinite regression of gods, and only bit she understands of the bible is that Jesus forgave her sins, thus she's free to do what she wants.
I don't intend to judge anyone. I just think it's a bit odd to take the old testament literally (in this case obviously literally enough to reject the idea of evolution). I know perfectly well that many Christians have quite un-dogmatic views. I recently met a guy who wants to be a Christian priest, who didn't believe that Jesus was the son of God, but rather a wise man :)

[Last edited by Blondbeard at 07-31-2009 09:29 PM]
07-31-2009 at 09:26 PM
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