Tahnan
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jbluestein wrote:

Tahnan wrote:
Is there, ah, any procedure in place in the architecture process to ensure that this is the case? That is, to ensure that the author (or, at worst, someone else) has played through the entire hold?

Not really, no. [...] We would prefer to not be the FIRST people to do this, but, well, I wanted a pony when I was a kid also.

Yeah, but the difference is that as a kid, you had no authority to get yourself a pony. As a Hold Admin, you do have the authority to require that, say, the architect includes a working demo for each room.

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[Last edited by Tahnan at 06-01-2008 12:58 AM]

jbluestein
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Tahnan wrote:

jbluestein wrote:

Not really, no. [...] We would prefer to not be the FIRST people to do this, but, well, I wanted a pony when I was a kid also.

Yeah, but the difference is that as a kid, you had no authority to get yourself a pony. As a Hold Admin, you do have the authority to require that, say, the architect includes a working demo for each room.

Well, 'authority' is a slightly squishy word here. HAs do have some authority, but also an obligation to make sure that the requirements for hold promotion aren't too onerous. Given the nature of hold architecture, I'm not sure it's really fair to require a demo for every room in a hold.

Problem is that it's neither necessary nor sufficient...it doesn't cover multiple entry rooms or other fringe cases, and hold revisions such as moving thing around will invalidate demos without really necessitating a retest in many cases.

That said, I don't like playing holds where it's obvious that the architect hasn't tested before submitting it. I'm not sure what the best answer is...

Josh

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Tim
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jbluestein wrote:
I'm not sure what the best answer is...

I'm not sure of what the best answer is either, but if I'm stuck somewhere (and I don't get stuck at easy rooms) and a demo is not available at all, I will probably stop testing for that particular HA hold and move on, and I will lower my priorities for any future holds made by it's architect (well, I've only reserved a couple of hours a week to do HA testing, and I don't want to waste my time if there are other holds that also need my attention).

Of course, the alternative is that I keep getting stuck on it, or completely giving up. (Becoming smarter is out of the question )

The result (whether demos for harder rooms is included) is the same, that the hold promotion takes even longer.

Well, except for how much of the HA's time is going to waste on rooms that he/she can't finish (whatever the reason is, too hard/untested/no checkpoints/impossible). Some options waste less time that others.

Perhaps it's better to ask how much time the HA's should waste on such holds? 100 hours? 10 hours? 1 hour? Any time at all?

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jbluestein
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Tim wrote:

Perhaps it's better to ask how much time the HA's should waste on such holds? 100 hours? 10 hours? 1 hour? Any time at all?

I tend towards '1 hour or less'. There are architects whose holds I am not particularly inclined to test anymore. I realize that Kant would disapprove of this particular strategy, but for now those holds still seem to be getting tested and promoted, by people apparently more patient than I.

So it works for me, for now.

Josh

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Tahnan
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zex20913 wrote:We just filter out the holds that are not ready, because of either playability issues (can't be completed, backtracking)...

Perhaps a HA can clarify a point on which I inadvertently spoke with more authority than was warranted.

I expressed the belief that purposefully allowing a green door to close behind you--i.e., clearing a room and then creating a new tarstuff baby, and then crossing a now-open green door to exit--does not constitute a "backtracking issue". That is, holds can contain such situations; the specific example here being Mysteries of the Deep: Ninth Level: 1N2W, where dropping the green door, creating a new baby, and then exiting to the north makes it impossible to backtrack to this room.

My thought is that this isn't a backtracking problem because it's wholly transparent to the player. Jatopian and mxvladi seem to think otherwise. What's the official stand of the HAs on this?

Jatopian
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If it's transparent to the player, that's one thing, but I'm not sure we have the same definition of "transparent" here.

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Tahnan
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Well, it's certainly transparent to the player that (s)he isn't coming back south via that route. It's admittedly not transparent that (s)he isn't coming back by any route at all.

CuriousShyRabbit
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Tahnan wrote:
What's the official stand of the HAs on this?

The last time we discussed this type of problem in HA, this was the consensus:

1. It is undesirable if cutting a tarstuff baby and leaving after the green door opens makes it impossible to return. For this reason, we try hard to catch all of these situations in HA, and we ask architects to fix them. I'm sure mxvladi posted because we asked him to fix a number of these problems in his own holds.

2. However, if one of these happens to slip through in spite of our efforts, we don't think it is worth the hassle of fixing it. The architect has to add extra doors and arrows into the room, HAs have to check that existing demos will still work for the entire hold, Schik has to update the hold, and every player who wants to continue playing for highscores will have to download the new version before they continue playing.

The trick of cutting an extra tar baby and leaving is something advanced players do to try and get a better score on rooms with tarstuff in them. These advanced players go out of their way to cut that extra tar baby, it's not something that tends to happen to new players by accident. We expect that these advanced players are smart enough to recognize situations where they shouldn't do that (ex, green door not on the edge of the room). I'm sure Tahnan posted because, one time when he happened to find one of these that we missed, that's what I told him.

CuriousShyRabbit
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There's been a small change in procedure regarding permissions to use Caravel's copyrighted media. I'll be handing out the permissions and doing the book keeping now, on behalf of mrimer.

So now, if you would like to use Caravel's copyrighted media (modified or unmodified) in your hold, please PM your request to me. In your PM, please include:
1. The name of the hold that will contain the copyrighted media.
2. What Caravel media you wish to use. (examples: goblin sprites, Beethro avatar)
3. If you've modified the media, please either describe what you've done to it, or include a link in your PM. (examples: guard sprites with different colors, slayer avatar with added scar)

I'll send you back a permissions statement that you will have to paste into your hold's description.

CuriousShyRabbit
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Extra! Extra! Read all about it! More HA News!

Demo Submission Interface
Big thanks to Schik for implementing a new interface for submitting a set of demos to HA. I understand this interface appears after an architect submits a hold to HA. It works from Architecture and from private beta boards. Demo submission is private, even from Architecture; only HAs will be able to download the demos.

Demo submission is recommended, but not required at this point. We're trying it out to see how it goes.

Why should you play your own hold to create this set of demos? Because that's how you catch silly mistakes that you can't see just by staring at it in the editor (missing power token, required room after blue door, etc). Because that's how players will experience your hold. Because testers don't like playing holds that the architect hasn't played him/herself. Because that will expedite the HA process. And if you really don't like that, and you've found a generous tester, a complete set of tester's demos will work as well.

Welcome Blondbeard!
Blondbeard has joined the HA team and is doing a great job so far.

Chaosgamer
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McFig wrote:
For us noobs wanting to upload a hold for the first time:
I got confused, and though I understand now, I bet others will get just as confused.

Good call

jbluestein
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Hey, is there an active list of HAs these days? (Or a list of active HAs?)

Asking for a friend. (Who is me.)

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navithmastero
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jbluestein wrote:
Hey, is there an active list of HAs these days? (Or a list of active HAs?)

Asking for a friend. (Who is me.)

The 'Current Hold Administrators' list that appears in the HA queue is as follows:

Blondbeard, Briareos, Chaco, Dischorran, Doom, kieranmillar, mauvebutterfly, mrimer, navithmastero, Rabscuttle, RoboBob3000, Schik, skell, Someone Else.

This is more up-to-date than the list in this thread but is still not correct. Briareos hasn't been around for nearly 10 years and while it seems RoboBob and Blondbeard pop in occasionally, they don't do any HAing. As far as I can tell, kieran, mrimer, Schik, skell don't do active HAing (i.e. looking at new holds as they come through) but may still do other things like comment on any issues/queries other HAs have or update any published holds which have issues.

That leaves myself, Chaco, Dischorran, Doom, mauvebutterfly and Rabscuttle and Someone Else looking at new holds as they come in.

Hope this helps! And other HAs please correct me if I'm wrong.

(That reminds me, I should go and look at the holds in the queue!)

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[Last edited by navithmastero at 07-26-2021 08:03 AM]

bbb
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I can join if there is a need for more HAs.

I haven't published holds, but I have a reasonable understanding of how DROD works.

(I am not always around, and sometimes disappear for weeks.)