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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Holds : Beethro's Teacher (Spring 2006 Smitemasters Selection)
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8.2/10 (58 votes)
σ 2.10
Author Name:Henri Kareinen
Submitted By:Doom
Hold Name:Beethro's Teacher
Theme:Spring 2006 Smitemasters Selection
Author's Difficulty:
Number of Levels:8
Number of Rooms:106
Number of Monsters:1375
Version:DROD: Journey to Rooted Hold
High Scores:View High Scores
Hold Karma:22 (+25 / -3)
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key-smiter
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This may be posted repeatedly elsewhere, but I haven't found it . . . In the "best demos" window, I'm told this hold is not published on Caravel.net, suggesting that I need to update it.

If I do so (either carelessly or carefully) what do I need to do to keep my data so far?

Thanks -
09-02-2006 at 01:32 AM
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eytanz
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If you update you won't lose your data. You will need to go to the "restore" screen and restore to the latest room you visited but everything else should be intact.

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09-02-2006 at 01:40 AM
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jbluestein
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One of the things I am thankful for this (USA-centric) season is that I have finally conquered this hold.

I've been pushing through the secret rooms with varying success, but at this moment I only have two left to complete on my way to mastery.

So, what did I think, and how do I compare it to the other extremely difficult Smitemaster's Selection hold I recently completed?

The puzzle design is brilliant, the plotting is great, and the voice acting wonderful.

But I would rank it in terms of appeal below Perfection, mostly because of the dificulty level. Lots of difficult and long rooms, and while I respect the craftsmanship, I didn't actually find a lot of the rooms very fun. This may be more of a commentary on my skill level rather than Doom's skills as an architect, but there you have my impression.

Mind you, I'm praising with faint damns here -- I still rate the hold a solid 8, with 10 brains of difficulty.

I am definitely looking forward to Doom's next hold!

Josh

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11-26-2006 at 07:56 PM
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Chard
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I have finally completed this hold. I've actually been replaying all of DROD recently and doing the Smitemaster's Selections that I hadn't up to this point tried and there is one thing that has become apparent which is this: despite whatever you may think and whatever appears to be the case, you *do* get better at DROD.

Playing KDD 2.0 for example, as someone who's completed JtRH and The Choice was a (mostly) trivial exercise, though I remember it being quite hard originally. But when you play KDD, then JtRH, then The Choice, then maybe Perfection or Secret Society you may not notice how much you learn as the difficulty keeps pace with your skill.

I mention all this because there is a very large number of very valuable lessons in this hold, Beethro's Teacher. Each room is a lesson, almost. No other hold has required me to know so much about Wraithwings, I recall at least one puzzle that made me realise the eccentricities of Tar and Mud growth interaction, but the one lesson that needs to be learnt by everyone who wishes to become a truly great Smitemaster is that the only objective, no matter how complex the puzzle, all you have to do, is kill all the monsters and get out. Sometimes a puzzle can get you so lost down little twisting passages of thought you fail to realise the simplicity of your task.

In short, Beethro's Teacher is not inappropriately named, but of course it is the *hold* and not Denfry that will instruct!
01-07-2007 at 04:26 AM
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selotte
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This hold is too hard to mee, but now I canīt delete it, The "Delete Hold" is turned of. It is the only hold this has happened with. What has heppened?
01-08-2007 at 05:13 PM
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Doom
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This is true for all official holds. Thinking you could've gotten rid of them that easily? They'll stay there haunting you until you have no choice but to return ;)

---
Ok, there's no reason for that really, so it's fixed in 2.0.15. However, there's no final version of the patch yet.
01-08-2007 at 05:22 PM
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coppro
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Well, you could go get Patch 2.0.15 Forever. That allows deleting SSes.
01-08-2007 at 07:31 PM
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Briareos
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selotte wrote:
This hold is too hard to mee, but now I canīt delete it, The "Delete Hold" is turned of. It is the only hold this has happened with. What has heppened?
Ummm... but why do you want to delete it? You can just skip it for now and come back later - so why delete it outright? -_-

np: Kaito - Color Of Feels (Hundred Million Love Years)

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01-08-2007 at 08:21 PM
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Alneyan
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Briareos wrote:
Ummm... but why do you want to delete it? You can just skip it for now and come back later - so why delete it outright? -_-

Flawlessness. Not managing to conquer a hold means failure. You wouldn't want to expose your worthlessness as a smitemaster for the world to see, right? Of course not, so you'd do your best to cover up your tracks. If all the holds in your list are 100%/Conquered, nobody will ever find you out.

That, or we're both obsessive-compulsive people who just have to keep every single hold that has ever been published right at hand. So of course, we cannot understand why anybody would want to *delete* holds once they are done with them (let alone before perfect mastery). I shudder whenever the thought crosses my mind. Poor little holds banished into utter mothingness.
01-08-2007 at 08:37 PM
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Briareos
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Alneyan wrote:
Briareos wrote:
Ummm... but why do you want to delete it? You can just skip it for now and come back later - so why delete it outright? -_-
Flawlessness. Not managing to conquer a hold means failure. You wouldn't want to expose your worthlessness as a smitemaster for the world to see, right?
Right.

Just remind me to ask Schik to delete all my progress in the holds I haven't conquered yet, lest they tarnish my squeaky-clean image... NOT! ;)

np: Sleepy Town Manufacture - Let A (Inspired By You (Sutemos016))

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01-08-2007 at 09:13 PM
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selotte
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Oh, I can see I have made a real terribly mistake to ask about delete a hold. BUT-- I have several holds I havenīt conquered yet, but I could see no reason to have a hold on my PC that I know I am not good enough to conquere. You are so lucky that you are so good that you can conquere the hard holds, I am not, you see. :closedeyes
01-08-2007 at 09:23 PM
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Ezlo
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Don't worry, if you stick around long enough you'll be able to solve it one day. If you asked me a year ago, (Hey! That's the day I registered! It's my one year anniversary! Neat!) I would say that I could never solve a hold this hard. So don't get too discouraged.
01-08-2007 at 09:25 PM
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Alneyan
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Briareos wrote:
Right.

Bah, everybody knows CaravelNet data is unreliable at best. I don't upload all my scores lest someone figures out what sort of player I am. Sure. Occam's Razor is right up there, second shelf.

That aside, what Ezlo said. Well, except he actually states things explictly. If you care to look, I haven't conquered Beethro Teacher myself. I've got half the rooms solved, more or less, so you can figure out what happened to the other half.

(Alas, I cannot even solve the first level again, even though I got it done in four hours of play, the first time around. So, no worries: evidently getting less skilled is worse than seeming not skilled enough.)
01-08-2007 at 09:32 PM
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Syntax
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Yeah I really wouldn't worry. I haven't finished this hold and some people still think I'm actually an OK player.

I reckon keep it there, and occassionally you may feel like giving it another try.
01-09-2007 at 03:56 PM
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jbluestein
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OK, I finally mastered this hold. Completed the final secret room on Level 6 just this afternoon, only after carefully examining Briareos's demo. (I've done some pretty tough timed puzzles, but...)

Anyway. Exploring behind the master wall now. One easy room, one that I haven't fully examined yet.

[And post-mastered. One room was clearly just a vanity room, the other was, well, it seemed easier than any of the rooms in the main part of the hold. A nice construction, though.]

Josh

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[Last edited by jbluestein at 03-12-2007 02:48 PM]
03-11-2007 at 08:47 PM
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key-smiter
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First, I'm obliged to admit to being the most oblivious person on this forum. Why? While I found the secret room on level 5, I've poked repeatedly all over levels 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6 and found no secret rooms anywhere. Surely they're there, right?

Can I pester the folks who know what they're doing for hints where they are?

Thanks -
03-14-2007 at 11:40 PM
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kzc
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Well, the one on level 1 is probably the easiest to find; it's just straightforward crumbly walls. Without being too explicit, you want to look
Click here to view the secret text


[Last edited by kzc at 03-15-2007 12:50 AM]
03-15-2007 at 12:50 AM
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key-smiter
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Whew. If that's the easiest to find, I'm sunk.

It's just as well. I'm trapped in L5, 1N1E . . . and I'm getting nowhere there. A pox on all these rooms.
03-15-2007 at 11:45 PM
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kzc
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I heard that. That particular room is too much of a bad thing.

Did you find the level one secret? If you want to give yourself a rest on that L5 monstrosity I can PM you the locations of the other secret rooms.
03-16-2007 at 12:03 AM
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key-smiter
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Yeah, I found it . . . thanks. I took a couple of stabs at it, determined it should best be considerered impossible, and went on to a different hold entirely.

A PM would be great. I did as much wall-poking as I could, so maybe there's magic stairs or something . . .
03-16-2007 at 12:18 AM
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robin
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This is one of the hardest holds ever, but still fun.
I need allmost hints for every room, :blush

For log time it seemed that I was gonna be stuck on level 1 forever. But I want/need/must master all of the SS-holds, so I started. and even yesterdy I cleared the whole 3rd level with the excisting hints and no demo's in only 3 hours.

I hope I mastered it before TCB comes out, we'll see it's a nice (unknown) deadline.

:thumbsup keep up the good work :thumbsup

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03-27-2007 at 03:34 PM
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Alexandre
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This is one of the most delightful holds I've played so far.
There is a scroll in one of the two non-trivial rooms behind the master wall that suggests that a variation of that room has appeared in a previous hold. Does anyone have a clue which hold that is?
04-13-2007 at 10:22 AM
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Doom
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That would be the post-mastery area in JtRH, originally based on my Trompe Le Monde contest entry.

Glad you liked it. It's good to hear some positivity every once in a while after the shaky start.
04-13-2007 at 08:19 PM
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Rheb
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YeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I finally mastered this hold!
... Well maybe I shouldn't say finally, since it only took me a week... then again, it took me three month to get started and... apparently I spent 17 hours playing it... yikes :blink.

Anyway, I really love this hold, I think it's one of the best ever made, and some of the tricks in the hold is just amazing... :thumbsup

The rooms I like the most are probably:
L 1: 1N, the trick in this room is just awesome!
L 1: 1S, really cool room, though personally I think the first chamber is the hardest...
L 2: 4S 1E, very hard, but very fun too :)
L 3: 2W, this is perfection, probably my favourite room of the hold. How much time did you actually spend on every room, Henri?
L 4: 2S 2E, I love this room:)
L 5: 1N, the trick in this room is just wonderful.
L5 1W: who can't love this kind of room???

Well, of course there were some rooms I didn't like quite as much. But the only room I really didn't like was the secret one in level 5, the trick was cool, but clearing the tar wasn't...

Thanks for a wonderful hold Henri, 10/10 and 10/10. (Yeah, it is really hard!)

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[Last edited by Rheb at 11-23-2007 10:05 PM]
11-23-2007 at 10:02 PM
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Jatopian
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Rheb wrote:
L 3: 2W, this is perfection
Nah, this is Beethro's Teacher; Perfection isn't so difficult (and IMHO, neither is perfection).

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11-23-2007 at 10:37 PM
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Rheb
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Jatopian wrote:
Rheb wrote:
L 3: 2W, this is perfection
Nah, this is Beethro's Teacher; Perfection isn't so difficult (and IMHO, neither is perfection).
I didn’t mean it's Perfection, I meant it's perfection, and it has nothing to do with the difficult level :P I just love that room :)

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[Last edited by Rheb at 11-23-2007 10:42 PM]
11-23-2007 at 10:42 PM
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Doom
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Rheb wrote:
YeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I finally mastered this hold!
Congrats!

How much time did you actually spend on every room, Henri?
I'm somewhat curious too, now that you mention it. Haven't paid too much attention to time in a long time so I find it hard to estimate now...

But in general having a clear idea of a room beforehand helps a lot. Depends on the level of complexity of course. Trickier rooms may certainly need several hours of tweaking and playtesting if problems are found. Again, I've made only a few random rooms in the last few weeks so it's hard to say.
11-25-2007 at 11:40 PM
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cheese obsessive
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Finally finished the hold, it only took me all year.

Moves: 169590
Kills: 35524
Deaths: 1771
Time: 61:09:30 (This hold DID take me forever, although I think I may have just left DROD run all day a few times...)
3 secret rooms left to complete

Being just a lowly musician and not one of you logic-puzzle-superheroes, I'm quite proud that I actually finished this.

When I started this hold last August, I had just gone to college, and needed something to do since I go to a college with a rather anti-social student body. So I decided to check out what SmS's I didn't play for some reason or another.

"Oh, this one's rated 9 brains...but I've beaten Perfection, KDD, JtRH, and just finished TCB, it can't be THAT much harder..."

The high path made me cocky. "Oh, is it gonna be like this the whole time? No sweat, I'll finish this in...a week!"

Found myself on the first level now. Walked down the path, looked at room 1N1E..."Oh, roach queen maze, no problem! Let's just see what the rest of these rooms are gonna be like."

"Roach queen efficiency, timer and all, been there, done that!"

"Hmm, I just gotta spawn some roaches to make a bridge of sorts, no sweat."

"This looks like some generic mimic puzzle that I can kill in 5 minutes."

"I have NO IDEA what to do in this room, but it will probably be obvious once I take three steps in."


But I sure underestimated the power of an architect named "Doom."


"Wait, how do I get the Roach Queen over there?? That doesn't seem physically possible! And why is that orb there?"

"Jeez, there are like infinity roaches, how do I even get out of the second chambe...HOW IS THE TIMER ALREADY UP?"

"What the...I can spawn three roaches, but there is NO WAY that I can make the 47289 more I actually need."

"NO MATTER WHERE I PUT THE MIMIC THIS ROOM IS CLEARLY IMPOSSIBLE, WHERE IS MY GAMESHARK."

"I STILL have no idea what to do in this room!"

So after being completely stumped on almost every room right off the bat, I knew I was in for a...slight challenge at least.

I solved maybe one or two of the rooms without a hint...after all, I knew what to do, just doing it was the hard part. But those were the EASY rooms. Rooms like First Level: 1N where most normal people (like myself) would just go "K, I dunno where to start, hints plz" were frustrating, but somehow I gave them all a chance. I was hoping I'd get the swing of the hold and hope some tricks would reoccur and everything would be just jim-dandy. Of course, this was not the case.

Every single room was one of four things:

A) "I think I know what to do, but it sure is a challenge to do."

For example, First level 2N1E, I liked this one. Other rooms I especially liked that were a challenge, but I still had an idea of what to do were Level 2: 3S1E, Level 2: 1S, Level 3: 3W, and Level 4: 4S1E.


B) "I know what to do...just kidding, maybe this is how to do it...just kidding again, that's slightly irritating, guess I'll check out the H&S."

I liked a few of these rooms, even though having no idea what to do (usually due to a red herring or thirteen). level 4: 1S1E I found fun once I knew what to do with the mimic. Level 5: 1E was also great once I read the trick I needed on H&S. Definitely wouldn't have solved most of those rooms without a hint, though.

C) "My brain cannot possibly comprehend how this should work, everything looks impossible, I'll just download Larry's demo, because I know doing it myself will make me commit acts of violence towards my computer."

This is the category containing all of the dastardly evil secret rooms you've built/spawned and rooms like level 2: 3S. Even following a demo move-for-move, I couldn't solve the level three secret room. But then again, I cannot possibly comprehend how two wraithwings move together, and I doubt most of the more casual, non-mathgod players could either.

D) "OH THANK GOD. IT'S A STAIRCASE."

I really enjoyed all of the rooms I can put in group A (Which is probably a single-digit number...), and some of them in B, but for someone like me, there were way too many "C" rooms in this hold for a SmS. I would spend hours sitting just trying to figure out how the room even works. This would lead to frustration, me snapping at my roommate, late nights, forgotten schoolwork, rising gas prices, widespread power outaqes, tornadoes, famines and droughts. I may have exaggerated that a bit, but I don't think I've ever done something this challenging. Every room was brilliant, evil, or some combination of the two. So I really have mixed feelings about this hold. Personally I feel it was way too hard to be an SmS, but that's not to say it isn't brilliant...I agree with banjooie that if you're like me and wanted the complete canonical story, it shouldn't have been this hard to see it.

Gave it a 10 for difficulty, and a 7 for fun...there were too many rooms that are impossible for a peasant like myself, but the ones I could solve I loved.





In my quest towards mastery, I found some wonkiness...Correct me if I'm wrong, but does the secret room at
Click here to view the secret text
no longer exist? The game says I've completed it, which I found odd, so I looked at the H&S board for it, but the room doesn't exist on the minimap...otherwise I only have 3 secret rooms left, all of which look dastardly. I'm hoping it's worth it.
06-25-2008 at 03:10 AM
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Someone Else
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Secrets don't appear in H&S.
06-25-2008 at 03:42 AM
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Tuttle
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Wrt the last point, I'm wondering if it's just this bug.

Secrets do appear in the H&S search once the server knows you've been there, and if you click the right spot in the brown area it'll let you search. It seems to take a lot longer for the room to show up in the image though -- I'm not sure if that's just browser-side caching of the old one or something on the server end.

[Last edited by Tuttle at 06-25-2008 04:12 AM]
06-25-2008 at 04:02 AM
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