Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Looks like the new build doesn't like using Set var _Sword to give the player a weapon. Equipment Swap Weapon works, fortunately. I've attached a playable version to the first post.

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50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 08-20-2013 10:00 PM]

Suwako
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 145
Registered: 04-29-2011
IP: Logged

I'm trying to conquer this, last time i only reached the fourth level. The script now works in the new build.

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A moment last forever, an eternity passes in an instant, the time I spent here was inevitable...

Midootje
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 109
Registered: 03-05-2011
IP: Logged

Well, finally got round to testing Hard Mode.
So far, I got to the entrance of Nameless Fortress. Not a chance of progressing very far in it, though, so I deleted all saves down to the entrance of Broken Stairwell.
Stats:
249 HP
269 ATK
251 DEF
13/1/0/0 keys. Used up some skeleton keys to defeat the Bloodworm (not called Bloodworm, just Rattlesnake on Hard Mode by the way!) and get the Longsword early.
Notes so far:
You're not messing around - Hard Mode is HARD.
There is no way in hell you can afford to use a blue key on the brain in Forgotten Temple: 4N. This leaves you using a lot of spare health from SC and FT on the Goblin.
After this, it took me almost all available health to get past the Slime King and progress to CC. Disused Sewers is really the hardest level in this hold, on Normal as well as Hard Mode!
Also, I had to do things in a different order, because getting up to 140 ATK before killing the Slime King is absolutely impossible HP wise. Therefore I needed to go North in CC before going South, otherwise I would not be able to collect enough HP to get out of the South loop. Because this is a suboptimal route, but necessary HP wise, it's harder to break the Northwest seal first and claim the Steel Shield as soon as possible. I actually had a margin of 18 HP to still be able to pull it off! Well, besides the Elixir. However, it does seem like the optimal path, and I was able to pick up on HP again after doing this.
The second part of DS is not too hard. Bahamut was a tough obstacle (only 250 HP left after killing him) but The Bloodworm is once again easy-peasy (I rushed through the second part of DS using 2 skeleton keys to get to the Longsword as soon as possible, and still only took 450 damage..). Seems like it could be buffed (a little). The rest seems balanced, it's mostly about the Little Waterskippers' and Fegundos' thresholds.
Broken Stairwell seems fine. Quite easy to navigate through using just a few keys, but the real bonuses take some preparation. Then, it's just a case of reason 330 ATK to claim the Knight Shield. Kekkajin is still easily overpowered (412 DEF upon reaching him). Reason for a buff, unless he doesnt run away after being killed. That should always remain a possibility, otherwise it's too hard to beat Khattam-Shud.
What I've played of Ruined Gatehouse seems fine as well. The struggle for HP in earlier Levels has... Leveled out by now. It's all just a matter of leaving as many creeps as possible alive for 8 times as many greckles (orb = x4, LB = x2) later on, and avoiding big HP losses from Aumtlich beams.

Conclusion: the first part is VERY VERY hard, which is a great challenge, but as on Normal mode, it becomes gradually easier. I'll try to work on the last few Levels in the coming two weeks. Finishing the hold on Hard Mode won't be a problem, but I'll only post once I have a fairly optimal playthrough, so it could take a while.
IMO still more intense than Tendry's Tale! Great job to the architects!

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Don't worry, be happy, and slice monsters. You'll probably do better than me at all three.

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[Last edited by Midootje at 01-09-2014 04:34 AM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Thank you so much!!!

I won't make any changes until you've finished playing the hold, but actually, it would be extremely helpful if you'd post your stats at the entrance to Broken Stairwell, and on reaching Kekkaijin and Asha -- so that I have an idea what stats to expect the player to have on a first attempt as well as after optimising.

Good luck!

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50th Skywatcher

Midootje
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 109
Registered: 03-05-2011
IP: Logged

Alright, finished on Hard Mode! Managed to beat Khattam-Shud as well (I haven't actually got to him yet because I need to go, but I have well over 25K health, 1100 ATK and an Invisibility Potion. Should do the trick).

So this means the hold is definitely conquerable on Hard! If you really need me to mention post-Khattam stats, I'll do so tomorrow or the day after, no time today.

Mind you this is a pretty optimized run (except for the last Level, I forgot to buy the VIP card and I plunged into the aumtlich trap with about 8K HP, so in total I could have had about 10K more HP in the end), which means that a LOT of effort was put into completing the first four Levels, which were very hard (after that not so much as it was not too hard to always keep my health at an acceptable level using the various keydrain rooms).

Later Levels are not as hard, except for the final one if you wish to make optimal use of your accessories and Lucky Blade. This means the difficulty curve is a bit weirdly shaped. In percentages of maximum difficulty:
SS: 25%
FT: 20%
DS 1: 100%
CC: 90%
DS 2: 50% (go for Long Sword and then 330 ATK or get to keydrain rooms?)
BS: 30% (only because of the Aumtliches. Otherwise it would have been 15%.)
RG: 55%
NF (including LTV): 90%

I don't know if you were still going to make any changes based on this report or not, but if so, I'd suggest leaving the first two Levels as they are. They're relatively easy yet good for warming up your perhaps still rusty mind. The Goblin might be made a tiny bit weaker though, if you want players who do not possess above average RPG skills to be able to pass DS part 1.
For the rest, I'd say it's all fine. I've said the later Levels are easy, but that's only if you optimized very well up to that point. Therefore I'd say it's a good reward for the player who puts lots of effort into every decision.

If you were not planning any changes, IT'S TIME TO PROMOTE THE HOLD!

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Don't worry, be happy, and slice monsters. You'll probably do better than me at all three.

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Midootje wrote: Alright, finished on Hard Mode! Managed to beat Khattam-Shud as well

Congratulations!!!

Midootje wrote: If you were not planning any changes, IT'S TIME TO PROMOTE THE HOLD!

As mentioned previously, the only changes I'm really planning are to beef up Kekkaijin and Asha to make them feel like worthy bosses for the sixth and seventh levels. This shouldn't really make those levels much harder, it will just mean the player needs to think about when to fight them and how to prepare for them (and it will mean a little less health is available for the endgame, but it sounds like you have plenty -- the bonus boss cost me 16500 HP).

That's why it's vital for me to know your stats just before fighting each of Kekkaijin, Asha, Grey Strides and Khattam-Shud (you should be able to get these stats by looking back at your saves). Stats just after picking up the Longsword would also be helpful for comparison purposes.

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50th Skywatcher

Midootje
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 109
Registered: 03-05-2011
IP: Logged

File: Nameless Fortress Khattam-Shud bug.bmp (3.1 MB)
Downloaded 62 times.
License: Public Domain

Oh dear, it's really quite lucky that I found this before the hold got promoted...
In the room with Khattam-Shud, there's a bug/exploit that allows you to gain infinite stats.The attached picture shows the result.

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Don't worry, be happy, and slice monsters. You'll probably do better than me at all three.

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[Last edited by Midootje at 12-02-2013 10:08 AM]

Midootje
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 109
Registered: 03-05-2011
IP: Logged

On a happier note though, I have the stats you requested:
Long Sword (after picking it up): 249/269/251/13/1/0/0 (Steel Shield, Flippers) with 5K+ of HP left to pick up.
Kekkajin: 619/375/420/9/4/3/1 again with 10K+ of HP left to pick up.
Asha: Around 2500/505/492/18/7/3/1. Over 20K HP left.
Gray Strides: 6635/913/847/32/6/2/1. Over 130K Greckles and 20K HP left.
Khattam-Shud without bug: 28K HP/1268 ATK + invis potion/850 DEF/33/10/4/1 (I could have have had 1K HP and 12 ATK more, but since it's not really necessary and would take me about half an hour extra I'm posting it like this). Estimated damage: 12350.
Hope you can work with this!

____________________________
Don't worry, be happy, and slice monsters. You'll probably do better than me at all three.

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[Last edited by Midootje at 12-02-2013 10:06 AM]

Midootje
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 109
Registered: 03-05-2011
IP: Logged

Oh, and one final thing: the Speed Potion from RG can still be picked up without any cost. Just drop your sword and accessory item anywhere and pick up the Potion. You will drop it on the trapdoor, but since you're not carrying any sword, the trapdoor will not drop and you can just take it back out with you.

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Don't worry, be happy, and slice monsters. You'll probably do better than me at all three.

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Thank you, those stats were immensely helpful. Have a nice shiny +5; you've earned it.

Updated hold attached to the first post. This is a serious candidate for the final version. If no further problems are noticed by 9 December, I will press the submit button.

Changes:

* Kekkaijin's stats are 1750/400/200 (old: 1050/400/160). He can still be reduced to zero damage if the player has sufficient DEF, but for players who haven't optimised DEF, he will be more of a challenge.
* After Kekkaijin flees, when you meet him in the next room, his stats are the same (although irrelevant to gameplay, it looked odd that he still had the old 345 ATK in the next room).
* RG 1W: Added a force arrow, so you have to go through the crumbly wall to reach the Speed Potion, so you have to be sworded. (It's still possible to use the Pickaxe to take the Speed Potion out of the room.)
* Asha's stats are 800/1120/310 (old: 450/560/310)
* If Kekkaijin flees and you spare him, he gives you an attack boost of 100 (not 200), and tells you that it only lasts in Khattam-Shud's room. All scripts use the correct figure of 100 (the exploit you mentioned was possible because I left the old figure of 345 in one script).
* Khattam-Shud still removes this extra 100 before his score checkpoint calculates your score, but he no longer gives it back afterwards. Instead, he sets the variable "KekkaijinFlee" to 4 so the script in the next room doesn't try to remove it again.

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50th Skywatcher

Midootje
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 109
Registered: 03-05-2011
IP: Logged

Nuntar wrote:
* If Kekkaijin flees and you spare him, he gives you an attack boost of 100 (not 200), and tells you that it only lasts in Khattam-Shud's room. All scripts use the correct figure of 100 (the exploit you mentioned was possible because I left the old figure of 345 in one script).
* Khattam-Shud still removes this extra 100 before his score checkpoint calculates your score, but he no longer gives it back afterwards. Instead, he sets the variable "KekkaijinFlee" to 4 so the script in the next room doesn't try to remove it again.

This erases the bug which adds infinite ATK. However, like this, it's not possible to bring the ATK emblem AND the Invisibility Potion to Khattam-Shud, because the script now removes 100 ATK every time you enter the room (also from the North). I don't know if it's possible to only make var KekkajinFlee change when you enter from South (I'm not that good at scripting), but that is definitely what needs to be done.
The rest seems all good now. Nice buff on Asha

____________________________
Don't worry, be happy, and slice monsters. You'll probably do better than me at all three.

Gordius
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 91
Registered: 12-16-2008
IP: Logged

Finally defeated the true boss (on regular). Grey Strides asks me to follow him to the west and then that's the end of the story. Is there supposed to be a cutscene in the staircase room? I had been in the room earlier (though not used the stairs, obviously), so it may not trigger then.

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

I did indeed add a unique cutscene that triggers if you defeat KS after already having entered LTV 1S1W. But I forgot to add "Imperative Restart script on entrance" to the script.

New version uploaded to first post. Change list:

* Cutscene scripting fixed
* Fixed a major math fail in the scripting for score checkpoints on Hard. Now, scores on Hard should be equal to 3/2 x Normal score, within 5 (slight discrepancies arise because each component is multiplied by 3/2 and rounded down separately)
* Slayer checkpoint (RG 3S3W) includes the extra scripting to take keys into account (I forgot him when I was adding this to all the bosses)
* Bahamut's dialogue before and after his defeat within cutscenes, timed correctly
* Bahamut's HP on Normal is 375 (not 400)

A couple of questions for Midootje. At what stage (if at all) did you get the blue key in RG 3S3W, when you played Hard difficulty? Should this key be a little cheaper, to make players more likely to consider getting it?

Levels 6 and 7 have a few miscellaneous differences between Normal and Hard, rather than the differences focusing on the bosses as in earlier levels. Did you find this annoying (being surprised by unexpected changes) or did it make things more interesting?

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50th Skywatcher

Midootje
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 109
Registered: 03-05-2011
IP: Logged

Well, I got the blue key as soon as I had collected all the stats from RG. This because I figured the Slayer would be a huge obstacle after doubling his stats, but a blue key and the HP, plus the greckles of course, was too much of a treat to leave behind.

I have to say I didn't even notice the changes in BS and RG until I looked them up in the editor. Since it was a long time ago when I finished Normal mode, I didn't see much difference except the blue/green door in FT and the extra blue door in DS 2 (which did prove to be quite a hassle (had to use a Skeleton key, and another one for the Long Sword). So that was a pleasant challenge, because when else have you ever actually NEEDED to use Skeleton keys other than hand them in for bonuses, right?
Because I never meant to kill the Pirates in BS and the one in RG (until I had enough DEF to kill him without taking damage), never meant to use the Power Square in BS and never meant to pass the Slayer in RG, I didn't have any trouble dealing with the changes in these Levels between Hard and Normal.
Edit: Now that you mentioned the differences, the double green doors and extra Fegundo in CC on Hard mode were pretty tough! Collecting enough green keys to be able to profit ASAP from the bonuses in each segment was a challenge. Nice job on that,

____________________________
Don't worry, be happy, and slice monsters. You'll probably do better than me at all three.

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[Last edited by Midootje at 12-04-2013 07:28 PM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

New version uploaded. (By the way, I should stress that these updates are not delaying the submission of this hold, which will still be on the 9th, unless something major comes up and I can't fix it in time.)

I decided to move the doors in RG 3S3W on both difficulties, so it's more tempting for the player to consider going past the Slayer. The other differences between Normal and Hard are unchanged.

What you say about skeleton keys is troubling -- they are meant to be optional. But I don't want to remove the extra blue doors, because, well, Hard is meant to be hard. I've decided to add another skeleton key by restoring the one originally in DS 1N3W, so the player has another chance to get one. Because a Waterskipper doesn't deal enough damage to be worth a skeleton key at this stage, I've made it a Lost Soul.

(By the way, I don't know if you're aware of this, but Hard is the hold as it originally came out of the collaborative building process, and I added Normal afterwards so players who don't have the ability to get through Hard can still enjoy the hold. So the double green doors and the "extra" Fegundo were there originally.)

Other changes:

* In the same room, DS 1N3W, I noticed a Sewer Roach that hadn't been made visible. It now has.
* I went through all characters' default scripts. For all characters that represent custom monsters, if no REP was specified, I made it equal to their GR. Restless Souls still have REP unequal to GR because that was Chaco's decision.
* Removed Slime King's default script, which never activates, as it's overridden by his unique script.
* Hold ending credits now include thanks to Gordius for testing, and extra special thanks to Midootje for testing Hard difficulty.

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50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 12-05-2013 11:37 PM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

So... it's been three weeks since I submitted this. Another hold has been started, finished, submitted and promoted in that time. I hope it's not rude of me to ask, what happens now, and is there anything more I can do to help things along? I know that Nameless Fortress will take longer because it's a much larger hold, but it's rather dispiriting not to hear any word about how it's progressing.

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50th Skywatcher

Doom
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3226
Registered: 07-05-2004
IP: Logged

Older holds do ideally get higher priority -- personally I only looked at Trial Tower first because I'd already played through it in architecture so the time investment was minimal. Also there actually *is* one bigger hold on the way that was submitted slightly earlier than this one.

Hopefully we'll get a few more people back from the holidays and can get back to this hold sooner rather than later.

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Thank you

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50th Skywatcher

Dischorran
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3407
Registered: 09-10-2005
IP: Logged

So I've started looking at the hold in HA, and for it to pass, we need to be able to confirm that it can be completed on Hard difficulty. It's a rather long and very difficult hold. If someone would like to prod me along with a rough walkthrough or at least what sorts of stats I should have at various points in the hold, that might help in getting me through it sometime this year.

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Midootje
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 109
Registered: 03-05-2011
IP: Logged

Dischorran wrote:
we need to be able to confirm that it can be completed on Hard difficulty. It's a rather long and very difficult hold. If someone would like to prod me along with a rough walkthrough or at least what sorts of stats I should have at various points in the hold, that might help in getting me through it sometime this year.

I actually posted stats earlier in this thread that I had playing it through on Hard. It's definitely conquerable.I posted from the Long Sword on, I'll go and see if I can conjure up those from earlier Levels.
Right, here they are.
Level 2: 41/41/44/255/475/7/3/0/0 and Invisibility Potion.
Level 3: 10/56/66/819/1139/10/4/1/0 and Invisibility Potion.
Level 4: 808/127/107/1965/2685/10/5/0/0 and Invisibility Potion.
Level 5: 224/232/232/3742/7592/15/1/0/2. Invisibility Potion has been used. Flippers.
Level 6 (basically the same as Long Sword stats, except this is before picking it up): 249/244/251/2122/8372/13/1/0/1.

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Don't worry, be happy, and slice monsters. You'll probably do better than me at all three.

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[Last edited by Midootje at 01-15-2014 10:47 AM]