Timo006
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I think I've been able to find a method for killing the slayer. I'm quite sure that this is a new method.

This method allows you to kill the slayer with almost any kind of obstacle and certain types of walls.

included is a hold which shows this method. There are two rooms, and two demos are provided. Just click on "watch demo" twice to see them.

This method works both horizontal and vertical.

EDIT: there's an updated version a little bit below.

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[Last edited by Timo006 at 05-11-2010 09:06 PM]

Doom
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News to me. And I thought I knew Slayer quirks quite well already.

Timo006 wrote:
This method works both horizontal and vertical.

It doesn't seem to work mirrored, though. It does work in every possible outside corner, but in all of them from only one of the two approaching directions. That would be because the Slayer appears to prefer turning his sword clockwise when the player is directly behind him.

I tested this more and compiled a hold with more details about where they Slayer can, and can not be killed like this.

Simplifying it a little before posting.

Timo006
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File: Test.hold (1.7 KB)
Downloaded 170 times.
License: Public Domain

Doom wrote:
News to me. And I thought I knew Slayer quirks quite well already.

Timo006 wrote:
This method works both horizontal and vertical.

It doesn't seem to work mirrored, though. It does work in every possible outside corner, but in all of them from only one of the two approaching directions. That would be because the Slayer appears to prefer turning his sword clockwise when the player is directly behind him.

I tested this more and compiled a hold with more details about where they Slayer can, and can not be killed like this.

Simplifying it a little before posting.

I already know this, that's why there's a second room showing a slighly different technique, though I guess that I should have made that part a little more clear.

On an other note, I've just found out that the second method CAN be mirrored.

As to horizontal and vertical, I meant that turning the room 90 degrees clockwise doesn't matter, as long as the basic oriëntation of the slayer, Beethro and the wall are the same.


EDIT: Here's an updated version of the hold. Please note that there are a total of 3 different rooms, all showing different techinques.

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[Last edited by Timo006 at 05-11-2010 09:05 PM]

Doom
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File: Slaying Time.hold (1.5 KB)
Downloaded 147 times.
License: Public Domain

Timo006 wrote:
I already know this, that's why there's a second room showing a slighly different technique, though I guess that I should have made that part a little more clear.

On an other note, I've just found out that the second method CAN be mirrored.

Just to be clear, both methods work if you press both F7 and F8 in the editor. If you press only either one of them, neither method will work (so rotating 90 degrees works as you said, but rotating around an axis doesn't)
edit: Your first and third room show that it indeed can work from both directions. It doesn't work in mine that way, though, because there's too much empty space around the outer corners. Quite interesting...

Also what wasn't mentioned yet, is that you need the walls that you run the Slayer into set properly, or it'll also fail. I'm not really sure how to explain this, so you can just look at the hold.

Hit the orb and you shouldn't be able to kill the Slayer at any of the spots due to running into the wrong wall at first. (Note that half of the marked areas are just duplicates, there are four different spots that work and four that don't)

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[Last edited by Doom at 05-11-2010 09:18 PM]

Timo006
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Doom wrote:

Timo006 wrote:
I already know this, that's why there's a second room showing a slighly different technique, though I guess that I should have made that part a little more clear.

On an other note, I've just found out that the second method CAN be mirrored.

Just to be clear, both methods work if you press both F7 and F8 in the editor. If you press only either one of them, neither method will work (so rotating 90 degrees works as you said, but rotating around an axis doesn't)
edit: Your first and third room show that it indeed can work from both directions. It doesn't work in mine that way, though, because there's too much empty space around the outer corners. Quite interesting...

Also what wasn't mentioned yet, is that you need the walls that you run the Slayer into set properly, or it'll also fail. I'm not really sure how to explain this, so you can just look at the hold.

Hit the orb and you shouldn't be able to kill the Slayer at any of the spots due to running into the wrong wall at first. (Note that half of the marked areas are just duplicates, there are four different spots that work and four that don't)

I see, I've checked it, and it seems that you're right. I must note, however that, if I don't touch the orb, that all the marked spots can be used to kill the slayer.

Also, it seems possible to me that you can at least kill slayers in almost all confifuration using inside corners (using technique 2 and 3.

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Doom
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Timo006 wrote:
I must note, however that, if I don't touch the orb, that all the marked spots can be used to kill the slayer.

Yeah, that was the intention.

Someone Else
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That really is spectacular. I think I'm going to replay JTRH and see how many rooms I can kill the slayer in.

Timo006
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File: ST Test The Entrance.demo (696 bytes)
Downloaded 219 times.
License: Public Domain

Doom wrote:Hit the orb and you shouldn't be able to kill the Slayer at any of the spots due to running into the wrong wall at first. (Note that half of the marked areas are just duplicates, there are four different spots that work and four that don't)

Umm, guys, I managed to kill the slayer with the doors down using a completely new technique. Demo is included, but I haven't experimented much with it yet

EDIT: This technique actually allows you to kill a slayer without the use of an obstacle!!!

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[Last edited by Timo006 at 05-12-2010 10:10 PM]

Doom
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Now that is something worthy of passing the old corner trick in usefulness, because it's the first trick I've seen that actually enables a kill in a perfectly square room. That is, it's doable almost everywhere. And yes, it works the same way in all four main directions.

slimm tom
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I can see people using this to get better scores in some rooms, so maybe this needs to be fixed or something?

Banjooie
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...why is there a problem with people getting better scores? O_o

coppro
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I recall mrimer once saying that if the Slayer was killable in any normal room in JtRH, then that was a game logic bug, but I can't find it.

Doom
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I'm pretty sure we decided a long time ago that the game logic isn't getting changed, since we'd lose most high scores for all rooms with Slayers in them ever released.

It's not like Slayer kills are anything new (he's been killed in most JtRH rooms a long time ago, there are lists somewhere on the forum).
edit: Enjoy, 2.5 years old topic: [link]

Banjooie wrote:
...why is there a problem with people getting better scores? O_o

I don't care much about scores, but it does get harder to design decent rooms where there's an evil, unkillable foe chasing you through the room (which is more what he should be like), when it's possible to kill him at every single corner...

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[Last edited by Doom at 05-13-2010 12:13 AM]

Banjooie
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You would think the logical conclusion is to make something that, I don't know, is immune to swording, then.

Someone Else
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But it makes sense to be able to kill him if you've got an immense group of useless stalwarts.

12th Archivist
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I don't think Banj was referring to making the slayer invincible, I think (s)he was referring to creating a new type of boss monster that was invincible to swords.

Wubblade then?

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Chard
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File: Slayer Squares.hold (1.4 KB)
Downloaded 77 times.
License: Public Domain

I just played Slayer's Weakness, it was almost trivial with this trick. I did some tests on different sizes of room and whether this works on them. 5x5 doesn't seem to be possible but 5x5 with an extra space next to one of the corners does. Only 3 or 4 of the slayers in Slayer's Weakness didn't have a space like that available. I'll draw it to be clear:



Good slayer killing puzzles are still possible, you just need to avoid that configuration. I made a cute little room based around it though, attached. :-)

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[Last edited by Chard at 05-14-2010 11:32 AM]

Aquator
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File: SlayerWall.gif (239.6 KB)
Downloaded 614 times.
License: Public Domain

Trying to help someone in chat with killing Slayers, I've made a little gif of the "obstacle-less" Slayer killing technique:



Because of the relatively few requirements this trick has, it is one of the most frequently applicable ways of getting rid of a Slayer. For being so versatile, however, it is apparently a remarkably well hidden little trick, as chat user Insoluble commented that he had never seen this particular technique before. He also suggested I post this gif somewhere on the forums and I must admit it took me quite a while to actually find this thread and verify that it was indeed talking about the same thing.

Because of this, I figured it would probably be best to post the gif here, so that any player unaware of this trick can easily see how it works, without having to download a hold and a demo file, attached to different posts of an already fairly obscure thread.

Edit: Feel free to tell me if you have a better suggestion as to where I should have posted this or to cuss me out for necroing an old thread and posting a gif with a file size substantially bigger than it needed to be because I suck at making gifs. I'm just trying to help.

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[Last edited by Aquator at 05-14-2016 11:34 PM]

disoriented
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Aquator wrote:
Trying to help someone in chat with killing Slayers, I've made a little gif of the "obstacle-less" Slayer killing technique:

I knew this existed because I saw it in a demo once, a long time ago. But I didn't know how to pull it off, nor has it ever been illustrated this clearly. So have all my remaining mod points.

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[Last edited by disoriented at 01-06-2016 08:08 PM]

Banjooie
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Well, that's completely insane, and amazingly laid out, Aquator.. On a side note, all my mod points seem to be leaking out??

boodog
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Is there any way to slow down gifs? That's way too fast for me to tell what's happening. Does Beethro hold position at any point?

Maurog
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Can the Slayer be made more defensive by making him turn the hook earlier?

The whole mess seems to start with him reducing the distance to 4 with the hook still in the vulnerable position (not facing Beethro).

If you made him start turning the hook from distance 5, what would it fix? What would it break?

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Aquator
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boodog wrote:
Is there any way to slow down gifs? That's way too fast for me to tell what's happening. Does Beethro hold position at any point?

No, there are no wait moves shown in that gif. The movement sequence for that particular situation is SW(x6),W,NW,N.
I slowed it down (and removed most of the slayer death animation, because it got pretty long):

Someone Else
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Maurog wrote:
Can the Slayer be made more defensive by making him turn the hook earlier?

The whole mess seems to start with him reducing the distance to 4 with the hook still in the vulnerable position (not facing Beethro).

If you made him start turning the hook from distance 5, what would it fix? What would it break?

It would probably fix this. But it would probably break nearly every demo in JTRH. I think it might be better to make a new slayer (1st slayer, anyone?) with a better AI. Not sure if that's possible or reasonable, but I don't think we want to change the slayer's AI at all.

skell
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Someone Else wrote:
It would probably fix this. But it would probably break nearly every demo in JTRH. I think it might be better to make a new slayer (1st slayer, anyone?) with a better AI. Not sure if that's possible or reasonable, but I don't think we want to change the slayer's AI at all.

Personally I don't really think we need another slayer, it wouldn't add much. Also it's laughably easy to enforce the slayer is not killed via scripting so you can cover this base

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mrimer
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skell wrote:
Personally I don't really think we need another slayer, it wouldn't add much.

Agreed.

Also it's laughably easy to enforce the slayer is not killed via scripting so you can cover this base

Whoa, I wasn't aware this was so easy. Has a sample script to do this been posted somewhere?

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kieranmillar
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I believe skell is referring to closing a door if the slayer is killed, rather than a script that mimics the slayer but fixes this exploit.

Xindaris
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Heck, you can make rooms that require you to keep the slayer alive for a while without scripting. You can even make rooms where doing so is hard!

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skell
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kieranmillar wrote:
I believe skell is referring to closing a door if the slayer is killed, rather than a script that mimics the slayer but fixes this exploit.

Yep, exactly that. Or kill Halph for killing slayer, or switch a variable that will make the player get stuck later and laughed upon.

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Dischorran
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Put a nuke in the slayer's sidecar?

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