Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
IP: Logged

Do you want me to look at this some more, or are you ready to post it to the HAs?

Dischorran
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3414
Registered: 09-10-2005
IP: Logged

TFMurphy tells me that the next patch is going to break my scripting horribly (again), so my current plan is to wait for that release before finalizing the hold. I also want to wait for high scoring to be finalized and up and running so that I can make sure that the hold's achievement scripts are compatible with whatever changes were needed to make that happen.

Once everything's ready to go, yes, I'd absolutely appreciate another run through for comments. The achievements in particular are still open for revision.

____________________________

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
IP: Logged

Any news?

Dischorran
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3414
Registered: 09-10-2005
IP: Logged

Oh, right, this. I'd forgotten about it. My prior statement still holds; unless anyone knows more than I do about upcoming patch details that'll wreck the hold, I'll try to take a look at it soon and release it.

I have TFMurphy's scripting comments from chat from a while back; I'll go through those, see what needs fixing, and maybe revisit the achievements. That and see if I can solve my own hold.

____________________________

Dischorran
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3414
Registered: 09-10-2005
IP: Logged

New version posted, fixing current bugs.

I'd saved an old chat log in which TFMurphy went through a very detailed catalog of what was still going wrong - made this much easier.

____________________________

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
IP: Logged

Great news. I will play it through soonish.

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
IP: Logged

For some reason the sword doesn't work properly with the swordsmen. When slaying a swordsman the sword ATK is set so that your total ATK is the DEF of the swordsman, rather than the player ATK plus the swordsman DEF.

Dischorran
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3414
Registered: 09-10-2005
IP: Logged

Looks like I didn't take the invisibility potion into account in the scripting. I'll see what I can do about that.

____________________________

Dischorran
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3414
Registered: 09-10-2005
IP: Logged

Alright, so I'm having scripting issues.

The problem that I'm trying to solve is how to prevent the mimic sword from updating its attack value when entering a battle in which neither Tendry nor the enemy can hurt each other - combat is initiated, but the enemy doesn't end up dying, and I can't seem to check for the enemy actually dying anyway. Roach eggs are an issue here, for instance.

The solution for this changes with pretty much every DROD:RPG patch, but at the moment what I seem to need to do is to follow up with a manual check to see if Tendry should have been able to kill the monster. Does his ATK plus weapon ATK exceed the (former) monster's DEF? If so, update the weapon's ATK to said DEF. However, this doesn't account for invisibility potions. It seems like I should be able to use Wait for Accessory (or Item?) Used in a monitoring NPC to wait for the potion to be drunk so that I can flag Tendry as invisible and manually double the expected attack value in the next value, but I can't get that command to trigger. Once I have the command triggered, I can just check for _Accessory=3 in the current or prior turn and be good to go.

So, for this problem to be solved and the hold to be submittable, I need a way to do one of the following:

1. Detect when any monster is killed and not merely engaged.
2. Identify Tendry's actual, applied attack in a given battle rather than the sum of its parts.
3. Identify when Tendry drinks an invisibility potion.

Any ideas?

____________________________

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
IP: Logged

Or just skip the roach queen. I never used the roach-queen. Another idea is to set ATK to 70 after killing a swordsman, cause that is what you almost definitly will have.

---

[Last edited by Blondbeard at 09-10-2010 07:51 AM]

Dischorran
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3414
Registered: 09-10-2005
IP: Logged

Better idea: flip the check around and make sure the monster can hurt Tendry. No more potion problem (I think!). New version attached.

____________________________

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
IP: Logged

Seems to work now

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
IP: Logged

Strange bug: Having ATK 42 my ATK doesn't lower by atacking WWs or roaches or eyes. It does lower by atacking neathers or mud babies or spiders.

Dischorran
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3414
Registered: 09-10-2005
IP: Logged

Blondbeard wrote:
Strange bug: Having ATK 42 my ATK doesn't lower by atacking WWs or roaches or eyes. It does lower by atacking neathers or mud babies or spiders.

So that's the problem with my solution to the previous problem. Argh.

EDIT: Fix posted. Now, the mimic sword should work if either the enemy can hurt Tendry or Tendry can hurt the enemy without an invisibility potion. This still leaves a hole where the enemy can't hurt Tendry, and Tendry can only hurt the enemy with an invisibility potion; fortunately, the only time that can happen is if Tendry has the knight shield. Since he already has to have defeated the toughest enemies in the hold to get it, I've made getting it a one-way trip to the exit; it's probaby just as well that an invincible Tendry isn't unleashed on the hold for a mop-up job.

Now let's see what the next bug is...

____________________________

---

[Last edited by Dischorran at 09-11-2010 11:17 PM]

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
IP: Logged

The next bug: Mud babie-door doesn't seem to work. I didn't kill a mudbabie, but the door still didn't drop. I killed the mud-mother though. I did get the gem by killing lots of mud mother pieces.

Dischorran
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3414
Registered: 09-10-2005
IP: Logged

The mud mother counts for these purposes. There are four options here (let me know which one you think works best):

1. Leave as is.
2. Exempt killing the mud mother with a scripting kludge (which I think should work...).
3. Make cutting the mud at all count against you.
4. Replace achievement with one requiring neither attack gem to be picked up.

____________________________

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
IP: Logged

Any one of them should work, but if you leave it as it is you should change the scroll to say "killing mud babies, or mother eyes" Or something like that. It is unfair with a mis-leading score-point.

Dischorran
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3414
Registered: 09-10-2005
IP: Logged

Alright, I've exempted the mud mother from the requirement. Oddly, only the left-hand eye seems to count as a monster, so I had to delete the right-hand eye and replace it with another left-hand eye, which doesn't seem to connect to the mud. I don't think that'll cause any serious issues. I've also required that Tendry pick up the attack gem beyond the mud to keep people from just skipping the mud entirely to get the achievement.

____________________________

Dischorran
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3414
Registered: 09-10-2005
IP: Logged

Looks like scripting's working for the time being. Let's move this into the final polishing stage. It'll go into the HAs this weekend, barring major issues; until then, thoughts on minor changes are welcome. Is there anything that stands out as being unpolished or not in line with current RPG architecture standards? Do the achievements present appropriate level of interest and range of difficulty, and are there any that might be better replaced with another specific idea?

____________________________

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
IP: Logged

If you wait a while longer I will test it more in earnest (all the goals and such). Right now I don't have that much time.

Dischorran
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3414
Registered: 09-10-2005
IP: Logged

Entirely fine; I'm in no hurry. Previous questions were also directed at the forum as a whole, not just you.

____________________________

Dischorran
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3414
Registered: 09-10-2005
IP: Logged

I've now completed hopefully the last of my own jobs with this: running the hold myself to create a walkthrough to the hard exit for the HAs. On the basis of this, I've readjusted cutoffs for some of the achievements, and the hot tile achievement, prone to massive inflation, now counts by triangular numbers: score 1 for one burn, 2 for 3, 3 for 6, 4 for 10, and so on. Why? Because it's easy to script and winds up in what I think is an appropriate ballpark.

This could still use one or two more testers for further achievement adjustments and other minor tweaks, but it's acceptable as is and I don't want to let it sit around forever. I'll be submitting it on November 5 or 6, barring good arguments to the contrary. In the meantime, test away!

____________________________

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
IP: Logged

Splendid!

---

[Last edited by Blondbeard at 10-29-2010 04:59 AM]

TFMurphy
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3118
Registered: 06-11-2007
IP: Logged

Not sure if I'll be able to run through this thoroughly before you decide to submit. Been a bit burnt out on playing DROD RPG, and getting back into it is taking a while. But I did take a look through the recent hold's scripting.

Disappointed that you can no longer take the Knight Shield back for final optimising, but I suppose it doesn't matter in the long run, and makes Warmonger and Charity a bit more interesting.

With regards to "A Clean Blade", personally, I thought the title would've fit more if *no mud at all* (stable, baby or mother) were cut. And it's not like you absolutely need that Power Gem to complete the hold (or even get all of the achievements). But whichever works.

Your Mimic Blade scripting is reasonably robust. Sadly, I can't recommend any better ways of doing it (some nasty bugs block one neat way of implementation). I'm not sure if the patch will break your code or not: if it eventually does, then I guess we can try fixing that when it happens.

You still have a hole in the logic though, since it *is* possible for the player to have an Invisibility Potion, kill a weak monster, and then try and Invisikill a Roach Egg. (Sure, it's not exactly the most wondrous of strategies, but it's possible.) As for detecting whether an Invisibility Potion is used, Accessory Used does *not* work for that, sadly. That event only detects Wall Walking and Warp Tokens. There is an event that could've been used to detect Speed Potions and Invisibility Potions being used, but you can't set Characters to detect for it in the editor. As a compromise, I think this global script should work:

Not sure if the "Wait for event Monster engaged" needs a Wait 0 before setting the variable back to 0 though. Alternatively, you could set Invis to 0 when you test against it in the Mimic Blade script.

As for other script brokenness, I note that in all the Aumtlich rooms, you set the Aumtlich Killed variable to 0 on first enter. So if the player never enters 4N1W before they kill their first Aumtlich, then enters 4N1W and retreats without killing the Aumtlich there, they won't get credit for the achievement.

Similarly, if you kill the Wraithwing in 1N2E from the SE and then immediately step SE, it will count as if you killed a Mud Baby. I also note that Turns and Moves made in Self-evaluation still count, leading to death when you stand on the squares at or over their 'maximums'. You should query these instead at the start of the room (or rather, you did query Moves, but you never used the variable). EDIT: Turns apparently don't count unless you have a sword equipped, so this actually isn't a problem for Turns. Still a problem for Moves though.

And lastly, when taking the Bonus Path in 4N, you can jump directly N from the Force Arrow to skip the scorepoint. Not that it does you any *good*... but it looks untidy.

---

[Last edited by TFMurphy at 11-06-2010 06:07 AM]

Dischorran
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3414
Registered: 09-10-2005
IP: Logged

Thanks! You got in just in time - was about to submit tonight (and leave the hold with some unfortunate bugs, clearly). I can hold off on submission if you think you'll get to this soonish, but I'm getting majorly tired of having this in development, and thorough optimization doesn't seem especially critical to achievement calibration.

Agh. Roach eggs. I forgot about roach eggs.

Everything but the invisibility potion update should be easy enough. I thought I'd fixed a couple of those bugs; maybe I had some version control issues at some point.

I had been thinking in my final test runs about making a challenge for not picking up one of the attack gems, so I'm inclined to agree about Clean Blade. Makes it more interesting, and I think finally forces a use for the roach queen. Of course, now I can't just ditch the queen to solve the scripting issue.

EDIT: While I'll keep the invis potion detector script in reserve, I prefer keeping players from running around with the knight shield anyway (sorry!), and see no reason why I can't just remove a land square and enforce carrying the grappling hook instead of the potion if one wants to reach the roach queen. Doesn't mean that there isn't a good reason, of course.

EDIT': New version posted.

____________________________

---

[Last edited by Dischorran at 11-06-2010 07:00 AM]

TFMurphy
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3118
Registered: 06-11-2007
IP: Logged

Not seeing any further problems, and the fixes seem to be fine. I gave it a quick run with some of my old journals, and whilst I did need to update them slightly, they still worked pretty well.

Looks like there's not enough HP to get *all* the bottommost achievements in a single game, but I don't think that's a problem. I note that you don't actually need the Variable Reporter command (which practically lives in this hold as an undocumented feature), since you can just right-click on the Mimic Blade to get the weapon's current attack.

Also, you may or may not want to expand the six '1 point only' Achievements into using the same stats as "The Mainland" scorepoint. That way, you not only earn the Scorepoint by completing the challenge, but you can get better scores by both attaining that Scorepoint *and* optimising past it. It's not necessary though, and it's sometimes a relief to not have to work overly hard for a few 100s every now and then. (And besides, I'm pretty sure that "The Mainland"'s best score would be whatever the best score for "A Better Way" is.)

It'd be nice if you could convince one more person to play through the most recent version of the hold for a fresh outlook, but I understand that RPG isn't terribly popular in comparison to TCB, and the forum isn't quite as active as it's been in the past. And the hold's been in its near-finished state for over two years now, so not really much point in holding out too much longer.

EDIT: No, wait, I lie. Just saw one final problem. Check your Luddite achievement. It opens at less than 250 Jumps, but will kill you if you have 200+ Jumps.

---

[Last edited by TFMurphy at 11-06-2010 07:58 PM]

Dischorran
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3414
Registered: 09-10-2005
IP: Logged

Maybe next time I'll make some global variables for adjusting stat cutoffs rather than updating them at multiple points in the hold. Yeesh.

Lamkin did run through the hold, albeit not via the Better Way, and gave comments via chat, so it has at least had a recent test by someone who hasn't been involved from the beginning.

I'll probably leave the variable reporter in for the heck of it. Currently going back and forth on what to do about the achievements; there's a good argument either way, especially if I make the Better Way require the grappling hook to force the golem exit for Questionable Judgment. Will come to a decision tonight.

____________________________

TFMurphy
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3118
Registered: 06-11-2007
IP: Logged

Dischorran wrote:
I'll probably leave the variable reporter in for the heck of it. Currently going back and forth on what to do about the achievements; there's a good argument either way, especially if I make the Better Way require the grappling hook to force the golem exit for Questionable Judgment. Will come to a decision tonight.

Be aware that if you require the Grappling Hook for Better Way, then that impacts Overachiever (since can't bring the Lucky Greckle). EDIT: Okay, now I remember what Questionable Judgment refers to. But yeah, it impacts more than just Questionable Judgment.

EDIT 2: Trying to think if the same maximum Overachiever is possible if you can't get both Better Way and Questionable Judgment. The main problem is getting both Vendetta and Best Defense in the same game: in my best games, I end up slightly more than 1500 HP short to kill an Aumtlich without a Shield. By comparison, getting both Questionable Judgment and Better Way in the same game does require a bit of forethought, since for a brief time you don't have a Grappling Hook and have to find a safe place to put the Invisibility Potion and Lucky Greckle.

EDIT 3: Tried again, managed to bring the difference down to under 1000 HP. Sadly, don't think I can squeeze out any more, since there's only 8575 HP in the hold (not including A Better Way), and 4020 HP of that is required for the Swordsmen, and 3080 HP is required to take out an Aumtlich. That gives 1475 HP as leeway, and considering you need to kill a Neather, an Antlion, and a Spider, as well as several Wraithwings, Roaches and a few Evil Eyes... yeah, you easily run past that limit.

---

[Last edited by TFMurphy at 11-06-2010 11:41 PM]

Dischorran
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3414
Registered: 09-10-2005
IP: Logged

Mm. Good point. Maybe I should leave well enough alone.

EDIT: How are you doing on keys after the optimization? If you've really gotten the required HP down under one large potion, putting one after the swordsmen would likely be a minimal disruption to the hold, especially if key preservation comes into play, and could be worthwhile if it permits a full sweep of the achievements. On the other hand, we're well past where I can test these things myself, which causes new issues.

____________________________

---

[Last edited by Dischorran at 11-07-2010 12:27 AM]

Dischorran
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3414
Registered: 09-10-2005
IP: Logged

Just the one jump counter bugfix up top.

____________________________