skell
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So, lately I've encountered THIS topic about how MapleStory is a sssh... So bad game. There was this term, Grinding (like, repeating the same or similar thing all the time). And it was said that grinding is found in every MMORPG and many RPGs, so I thought about it a bit. And I think about it right now too!

Then it struck me - My next project was supposed to be an RPG, turn-grid-based, top-down, taking what is good from DROD (Movement system), Dark Cloud (Weapon upgrading) and Rogue-likes (Lots of stuff from them), and maybe some other stuff. No matter. The thing is, I was wondering how this future project could be ever upgraded... And to be hones, I'm wondering what other people like in RPGs .

So, I have 3 basic questions:
1.What kind of Grinding do you enjoy, and why? Any examples of games?
2.What extraordinary features have you ever encountered in RPG that you liked?
3.If you have played Rogue-likes, did you enjoy them? Why?

And of course I'm open to all other opinions .

If I were to answer - I like grinding when it is challenging. Like really hard encounter, which I have to repeat many many times to perfect it and be able to finish it. For example Dark Cloud, as it took some time to get good timing when fighting enemies. But later in the game, it got too easy to be enjoyable. I also like when thing requires good strategy and tactic. When it is difficult and you have to THINK what to do. Like Baldur's Gate, or even more, Rogue-likes, where you have to carry lots of stuff with you and you have to decide when, why and how to use what thing .
As for extraordinary features, as mentioned before, I liked Weapon Advancing from Dark Cloud. There were many interesting things in Legend of Mana, though it was tooooo easy. I liked Arena in Hengband. Card Games in FF8 were really enjoyable. Herbs in ADOM. There would be more, but I don't remember much now.
And the last, Roguelikes... My first Roguelike was Zangband back on Amiga 1200, with these funny lil' graphics. Since then I play roguelikes regularly. My personal favourites are Hengband, and ADOM, but I don't play the latter anymore. I really enjoyed them, because they are difficult and have lots of features and stuff in them . And I never completed any.

That would be it . Sometimes, I just like to write a lot so forgive me if your eyes hurt badly after reading all this text ^^.

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[Last edited by skell at 03-01-2008 11:29 AM]

vinheim
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1. The grinding I like is when you battle a lot to accomplish something. In Golden Sun 2, I'd repeatedly restart the game to take advantage of its RNG system so I could formulate a way to get a rare weapon instantly. In Tales of Symphonia I battle to get more food ingredients or money for ingredients.
2. I haven't seen any extraordinary features because its really all about taking a simple feature and making it extraordinary. Paper Mario 2 accomplishes this with its astounding storyline and battle system and the 'partner system'. Guild Wars, an MMORPG, does this by its 'title system' which is more 'completist friendly'.
3. If you mean, like Nethack, the best Nethack game out there is unfortunately degraded because its not fully Nethack. Its warriors2 at www.warriors2.com When you get into dungeons or in a tree, a colorful map that gradually gets filled makes it simply awesome. So, yeah, I enjoy Rogue-likes, if this is what you meant

Tuttle
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skell wrote:
If I were to answer - I like grinding when it is challenging. Like really hard encounter, which I have to repeat many many times to perfect it and be able to finish it. For example Dark Cloud, as it took some time to get good timing when fighting enemies. But later in the game, it got too easy to be enjoyable. I also like when thing requires good strategy and tactic. When it is difficult and you have to THINK what to do. Like Baldur's Gate, or even more, Rogue-likes, where you have to carry lots of stuff with you and you have to decide when, why and how to use what thing .

But then it's not grinding. IMO an essential part of the definition of grinding is that it's simple and repetitive.

The hunting grounds in the RPG 3.0 hold are an example of grinding -- attack monster, run back to get health, attack monster, run back to get health, (repeat lots), room is empty. Next room. Attack monster, run back to get health...

If the encounters are different and you start to have to think, I don't think it's grinding any more.

And by that definition, I don't think any grinding is good grinding. Probably the best sort is the stuff you can automate. I still have the padlock on my desk that I rested on the C key in Oblivion when I needed some more spell skill in a hurry. But even then, I had to spend a couple of hours doing other stuff when I should have been gaming.

As for your second question, it'd be the freedom in Planescape: Torment -- there was a game where you could play multiple styles and work towards different alignments and they were all feasible. In so many RPGs it's so much easier to be a good character than an evil one in terms of getting quests and using items, but in Planescape an evil character had just as many opportunities as a good one.

vittro
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I can pretty much say I played loads of MMOs.

I hate grinding, totally. So, when there's the PvP only option, or the high-rate server option, I always take it.
Grinding MMOs are like this : the more you play, stronger you are.
I hate grinding because it's sucking your life, it's like that to become better you have to repeat the same thing over and over, being fun just for the first 2 enemies.

What can I say... Make it like Oblivion.

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Malorie
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Grinding is the worst game mechanic I've ever seen when it's a mandatory design choice to progress in the game.

However... grinding is absolutely wonderful when it's an optional choice to make the game easier.


Examples of bad grinding!:
The very first Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy games. They weren't 'hard' like some people say, as it wasn't like it was tough to choose a winning battle strategy... they just forced you grind levels until you even stood a chance. That's not hard, it's just tiresome and time-consuming. You didn't ever get any new strategies or spells from levelling, you just needed to grind to get your HP, MP, and strength stats up.

Examples of good grinding!:
The Nippon Ichi SRPGs, like Disgaea. You rarely ever 'need' to grind, 'cause you tend to level up enough as you progress through the game, but there's always the option of becoming overpowered by your own if you want to, up to ridiculous levels. ^^ There's always new moves to get, new classes to unlock, and even items can be levelled if you really want! Almost everything you do increases some kind of proficiency stat, and it can be addicting to just ignore the main story, and make your very own custom character that is proficient in a certain spell or weapon. ^_^

Morrowind/Oblivion also had a wonderful levelling system (disregarding Oblivion's enemy-balancing), where again, you never 'need' to level, but almost everything you do increases your stats over time. You're never forced to level, but if you ever decide to grind up your alchemy skill or somesuch, you can do it with ease, and benefit from it. ^_^


All in all... as long as you're not forced to grind, and you get something enjoyable and progressive out of it, it's a good thing! ^^

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zex20913
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I'm speaking from a (perhaps) crazy point of view that grinding can be a good thing. I'm thinking specifically of the Gauntlet series. There's absolutely nothing beyond grinding there...but it still feels great to completely take out a swath of enemies and destroy the generator.

I suppose there must be an instant reward, even if it's minimal. Sort of WarioWare hits FinalFantasy. And the reward screen shouldn't be time-consuming (if there's a reward screen at all!)

Of course, I've never played WoW, and don't intend to because I'm close enough to being addicted to video games without traveling over the edge of that cliff.

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coppro
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Grinding needs to have variance to it. If you are doing the same things over and over again, then things can get pretty darn boring. Pen-and-paper RPGs have dealt with the issue by the Game Master's ability to formulate new scenarios that each demand different skillsets. This is clearly not possible in computer games. But you can try to come closer - for instance, if you make monsters that are much more difficult to kill if you use technique A, and you mix the various monsters up. Most importantly, the grind has to change. Nothing is worse than grinding where you are sitting in one place just whacking monsters as they spawn. Another great was to deal with grinds is to make it so that the spawn rates change depending on how much of a monster you kill - once the spawn rate for creature A becomes intolerably low, you have to go deal with something else. Also, don't make monsters spawn persistently in the same location. Roguelikes often allow most monsters to spawn anywhere - this technique is great because it means that you could be throwing fireballs at everything you see, but then a fire elemental spawns and a change of tactics is required. That's also a strong reason not to separate battles from the main map - things are much more flexible as to how and when monsters can join in in the middle of the battle - with separate battles, either a monster in battle has to summon the monster, or else it will be seen as unfair that more monsters just come out of nowhere. Once the grind makes it to the point where your player might have to actually react to what he sees on the screen, then you have gotten rid of the worst of grinding - a good conversation in a MMORPG's chat can sometimes serve as a substitute, though it's not preferable to a well-designed game.

As a corollary, I would highly recommend designing games (particularly if they are multiplayer) with experience levels that are so vastly different in speed that a casual player can be excited about hitting level 10 and be bored by 20 (*coughwowcough*).

BeefontheBone
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3.If you have played Rogue-likes, did you enjoy them? Why?

All the time. Started with ZangbandTK after PCG ran an article about it and put it on their coverdisc, and am eternally grateful to Kieron Gillen (who I think wrote it) for the introduction. At the minute I've been playing Crawl Stone Soup on crawl.akrasiac.org (and watching people who are much better at it than me) and Incursion, which is a fantastic effort at combining RLs and the core D&D OGL rules, and works very well - I'm hoping he'll get back to developing it again soon
The most enjoyable aspect is that every game is different from the last - Incursion in particular really goes to town on that by allowing the use of perks which mean that exactly the same race and class combination will play differently right from the off. Oh, and no grinding

If anyone missed it, JADE is back in (very) active development, and I'm getting rather excited about it again - one of the most ambitious RL projects I've encountered recently, after Dwarf Fortress

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skell
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If anyone missed it, JADE is back in (very) active development,

Noticed it just yesterday . I'm waiting impatiently for the first release .

If the encounters are different and you start to have to think, I don't think it's grinding any more.

Makes sense, although, it can still be repetitive, or can get repetitive after a while.

Morrowind/Oblivion also had a wonderful levelling system

Agree, although Morrowind was too easily too abusive. I remember my technique to quickly get levels:
Put lots of money in some crate near ppl, take it and put it down repeatedly, go to jail. Acrobatic skill was lowered dramatically by it, so every few Jumps I got skill point. 10 skill points gives level which gives abilities increasement. And so on. This could be of course easily avoided. Besides, in all elder scrolls there was no need to grind, as there were hundreds of different quests to complete, which didn't need high level. I think these games are more focused on storyline and Roleplaying than Battling.

All in all... as long as you're not forced to grind, and you get something enjoyable and progressive out of it, it's a good thing!

Nice conclusion Malorie. I'll make sure to remember it.

That's also a strong reason not to separate battles from the main map - things are much more flexible as to how and when monsters can join in in the middle of the battle

This is undoubtedly true. Yet, Almost every RPG has the same boring battle system. Though there were few variations I remember:
Final Fantasy 7 materia system and Final Fantasy 8 magic equipping system - they gave a lot to strategy. I remember, in FF7, when I was still a kid, I couldn't get past a Boss. My Brother made some changes in my Materia, and Voila, I killed him with no problem . (But it doesn't change the fact, that most of the game was pointless fighting)
Worth mentioning is battle system in Valkyrie Profile on PS, where the timing of attacks is crucial in successful battle (But it got tedious later)
And about enemies joining battle, I lately played Suikoden Tactics, which as title inquiries, is more of a tactic game. There, quite often, more enemies joined the battle. It was making the battle more exciting. At some point it was so exciting, that I would habe to level up my characters at least 4 or 5 levels, so I decided it's time to stop playing . So it can be easily... Well, made entirely wrong.

As a corollary, I would highly recommend designing games (particularly if they are multiplayer) with experience levels that are so vastly different in speed that a casual player can be excited about hitting level 10 and be bored by 20 (*coughwowcough*).

Coppro, I don't understand what you mean here . If you could explain a bit ^^;

Now, I know I wrote a lot again . I just find this topic an interesting one.

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mrimer
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Yes, interesting topic! To me, grinding seems to be linked with monster respawn. This seems like a given, but that highlights a contrast with games where there is a finite number of monsters. In Rogue-like games where monsters do not respawn, you might consider searching an entire floor in order to mop up the baddies there, in order to gain experience and loot. I don't consider this grinding, however. Even though you're doing it essentially to get more of X, there is strategy involved, and it's actually more like scouring a level for treasure chests or other supplies. You find them all and once they're all picked up, there's nothing left to get and you must move on. I don't think anyone has ever considered searching for all the treasure chests in an area as grinding, so I wouldn't call mopping up a finite amount of monsters as grinding either.

I would conclude that as long as monsters or resource gathering does not take the form of a money pump, grinding is avoided completely. In highly-strategic games like "Tower of the Sorcerer", deciding when to mop up the pre-defined monster set is a relatively engaging part of the dungeon crawl experience.

When there are finite money pumps (e.g. the monster fields in "RPG 3.0" -- there's some strategy involved in when the player goes to pick off these monsters, but they eventually run out), grinding is limited precisely to that extent.

Gauntlet is different as well. Grinding for points by shooting a perpetual generator stream is possible, but it doesn't actually advance play or ability at all. Instead, the player has incentive to break generators, or in other terms, to stop grinding a.s.a.p. This seems an engaging play mechanic, because the player's skill determines how long the grinding must continue, and not achieving arbitrary amounts of XP or loot never comes into play.

coppro wrote:
Nothing is worse than grinding where you are sitting in one place just whacking monsters as they spawn. Another great wa[y] to deal with grinds is to make it so that the spawn rates change depending on how much of a monster you kill - once the spawn rate for creature A becomes intolerably low, you have to go deal with something else. Also, don't make monsters spawn persistently in the same location.

I don't think I agree that these variants make grinding more fun/less annoying. With these design changes, not only do you have to grind anyway, but now the game makes it even harder to grind, and more of the player's real time is sucked away in searching for new grinding areas. I'd at least want it so that, if a game forces me to grind to progress, at least they make the grinding process relatively less painful, rather than more.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 03-02-2008 04:47 PM]

b0rsuk
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There's no good and bad grinding. Grinding is bad by definition because it encourages you to do repetitive (boring) stuff over and over. I consider it a serious design flaw. Classic case is selling gear in RPG games. It may sound like fun at first, but it gets old quickly. A player who doesn't collect and sell every little sword in Baldur's Gate simply won't afford many high-end items.

Linley's Dungeon Crawl author (Linley Henzell) realised this, and he made it impossible to sell items to shops. The game is much more fun as the result.

Crawl is, in general, quite good at stopping most forms of grinding. For example you can't stay on one easy level forever. Hunger will force you to descend. The only exception from this is the Mummy race, which doesn't need to eat and in any case is incapable of doing so. This is deliberate.

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[Last edited by b0rsuk at 03-02-2008 05:49 PM]

Banjooie
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I enjoy repetitive grinding.

I'm sorry.

It's a neat way to just tune out, and I like paying attention to the little things that come up.

And it's VERY CLEARLY not a design flaw by the Koreans' standards....

vinheim
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Yeah, once you've finished an RPG or, in the case of MMORPGs if you get to almost the highest level or end of story or something, you might think 'Is that all?' That's why grinding can be fun, as long as you, the player, is having fun grinding. In my example of Tales of Symphonia, as a completist, I aim to get everyone the best level in cooking for all recipes. I do this by repetitive grinding, fighting battles for money or ingredients. As I am aiming to keep my completist status, I enjoy it. The actual battle system itself is really good, which helps me have fun.

So basic morale today: Grinding can be fun as long as you, the player, is having fun grinding

skell
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mrimer, now you made me play the "Tower of the Sorcerer" . Thankfully, it is too difficult for me to play so I'll probably stop playing it soon enough. Thanks for lots of nice points and conclusions .

coppro wrote:
Nothing is worse than grinding where you are sitting in one place just whacking monsters as they spawn. Another great wa[y] to deal with grinds is to make it so that the spawn rates change depending on how much of a monster you kill - once the spawn rate for creature A becomes intolerably low, you have to go deal with something else. Also, don't make monsters spawn persistently in the same location.

I don't think I agree that these variants make grinding more fun/less annoying. With these design changes, not only do you have to grind anyway, but now the game makes it even harder to grind, and more of the player's real time is sucked away in searching for new grinding areas. I'd at least want it so that, if a game forces me to grind to progress, at least they make the grinding process relatively less painful, rather than more.

But if the variety is large enough it can become interesting again .

Banjooie: well, not that there is anythign wrong in enjoying grinding. I enjoy it sometimes too (Lately I've been playing Suikoden 3, and every battle but boss battle is plain grinding. And the battles are so long that you have to keep a book next to you to read in the meantime ).
Vinheim: Well, but as you say the battle system is good. What if the game would need you to constantly keep holding left-right on analog, and then constantly pressing X, then walking left-right until next encounter, then press X X X X XXxxxxxxxXXXx and then run again, wait, I have to keep hitting this friggin' X for the twentieth time! And if add to it really rare encounters... In contrary, too often encounters when you don't want to fight is even worse.

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Snacko
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Every game needs to have some bit of repetition, if there is anything resembling core gameplay, the exclusion of "grinding" is impossible.

So what makes certain types of grinding better than others? The answer is this: fun. If something is fun and deep enough people won't get bored with it. Try comparing the earlier Final Fantasys and Grandia to get an idea of what I mean.

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Maurog
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At the bottom of it, I think every RPG plays like a mix of Tetris and Progress Quest sprinkled with Knytt. Let me explain:

Tetris is the standard grind. You walk walk walk and you fight fight fight, and then you do it all over again. It's an inevitable part of every game, but if it's overdone you can get really bored because, after all, you're playing Tetris. Most MMORPGs suffer from being too much Tetris.

Progress Quest is the sense of achievement of short-term goals. You gain a level, your skill increases, you finish another quest. It's the carrot the game dangles in front of you to make you want to play Tetris. However, overdoing it is also bad. When you level too fast, you don't care about it anymore. When there are 25 quests in your journal, completing one is not a big deal. If you're not excited enough about advancing the plot and other progress bars, the Tetris grind will wear you out.

Knytt is the exploration part and thinking part. It's actually advancing the main plot, discovering new items and unusual combinations, enemies with new abilities, any innovation that breaks the routine of Progress Quest, really. It also includes any thinking and decisions like which of the two totally different weapons is better. Not enough Knytt means the game is bland and tasteless and will probably be filed under "X's clone". Too much of it though, and you end up with, well, Knytt or a movie, or pure adventure like Monkey Island.

Well, that's what I think at least. By the way, I also think Linley's Crawl is one of the most balanced RPGs out there.

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mrimer
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Snacko wrote:
Every game needs to have some bit of repetition, if there is anything resembling core gameplay, the exclusion of "grinding" is impossible.

So what makes certain types of grinding better than others? The answer is this: fun. If something is fun and deep enough people won't get bored with it. Try comparing the earlier Final Fantasys and Grandia to get an idea of what I mean.

I don't think repetitive "core gameplay" is equivalent to grinding. When you play soccer, you're not grinding as you keep trying to score another goal.

I don't think playing a classic game like Asteroids would be considered grinding, or Tetris either, even though you perform the same actions over and over. Consider sports games like Madden 'X6. In a sports game, you are executing plays over and over and over, and that's basically the core play experience. However, no one has ever accused a sports game of grinding just because you are reliving the same core gameplay over and over. Soccer isn't grinding even though you're trying over and over to score a goal.

I must conclude it's not repetition itself that is grinding. Instead, grinding seems to involve the inclusion of arbitrary progression rules. As an example, if the rules of Madden football were changed so that your team had to run around back and forth on the field for 500 yards before qualifying to score each touchdown, I'd consider that grinding.

Why include a rule like that anyway? Basically, it is an arbitrary number, and is included with the sole purpose of stretching out the play experience. To my mind, that is reminiscent of RPGs that require you to kill 10 copies of monster X one after another to complete a quest, where you get the equivalent experience after killing just one. So why require killing 10 instead of one if none of the essence of play experience would be lost? An arbitrary rule to make the game last longer.

Grinding isn't related to strategy. It's not about tactics. Of course, an individual fight might involve some strategy or tactics, but the process of grinding itself does not. What's it for? An arbitrary way of making the player spend arbitrarily more time in order to receive a reward.

As Maurog observes, there is a psychological balance to be found between short- and long-term goals (rewards). Maybe grinding is observed at the point where boredom perceptably outweighs challenge.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 03-03-2008 08:18 PM]

Sillyman
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I agree with Maurog, and disagree with Mrimer. Grinding is performing the same actions over and over again, whether or not there is an arbitrary goal. Tetris is grinding, even though there is no score limit that you want to reach. The Tetris factor is core gameplay, while the Progress Quest factor is non-explorative progress, and perpetuality. And the Knytt factor is discovery, or explorative progress.
It is not the Progress Quest factor that truly is grinding, it merely excentuates the grind. The real grind is the Tetris factor, even though what most people would consider a higher (more complex) Tetris factor means less grinding. The Knytt factor conceals the grind very effectively in most good games.
EVERY game has some grind. The question is: How much? Madden has grind that is severely reduced by the fact that each game is very short. Asteroids has grind that becomes more noticable as you become more skilled. Neither of those has any Knytt.
Progress Quest has severe grind, but you hardly notice as the Tetris factor is sheer nothingness. Suprisingly enough, it has some Knytt in it, in seeing monsters, items, and skills you've never seen before, even if they do nothing. WoW has some grind, but you explore some and have plot-relevant quests, again bringing in Knytt to dull the grinding. The Tetris factor of WoW is simplistic, and that's what makes MMORPGs stick out as grinding.
Knytt itself has a little grind. Jump over this pit, try again... jump over this pit, try again... Yeah. But it doesn't have very much grind, as it has a huge Knytt factor. Exploration is key. Same goes for Pikmin, it has the grind of building up your armies, but it is truly about exploration, finding all the treasures/spaceship parts.

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zex20913
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Tetris would be a grind if you only got 2X2 blocks to fill.

The geometry (and amount of combinations of piece orders) makes it un-grindable.

Unless we define grind as such. As a mathematician, I'm looking for a solid definition, not just a list of potential examples.

I'd take mrimer's def of "a repetitive task designed to achieve a somewhat arbitrary goal." Gaining experience to level up is an example, playing Tetris or Asteroids is not.

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skell
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"a repetitive task designed to achieve a somewhat arbitrary goal"
I don't understand the use of word Arbitrary here, not even look into dictionary helps.

And I think better would be "A repetitive, unchallenging, unchanging task designed to achieve..."
With this definition, most of what Sillyman said becomes false. First of all:
"Asteroids has grind that becomes more noticable as you become more skilled" - It is not Grind, as even though Core of the whole gameplay resolves around simple thing, the game is CHALLENGING, and CHANGING - constantly changing amounts of sizes and types of enemies.
"Knytt itself has a little grind" I don't agree with it too. Traveling isn't grinding. You walk around learning the surroundings. It is NOT REPETITIVE and is CHANGING, but is not challenging. If it were repetitive, the whole game would be constantly holding right arrow and every three second press and hold jump button. Because you have to constantly analyze the environment and decide where and what to do it is not repetitive. And is changing, because the environment changes, music changes, graphic changes, mood changes.

If you didn't understand what I mean by repetitive, unchallenging and unchanging I'll try to explain it the best I can:
Repetitive - means that you constantly repeat the same thing in a sequence (Keep hitting one button),(Move left/right until you get attacked, keep hitting X on Pad to kill enemy), or half-sequence (Walk forward, press on enemy, every 3 seconds of battle press F1 to select spell and click on enemy, until dies, then start again, every 10 battles rest for 20 seconds - my experience from playing Trickster) or resolves around some simple, unadvanced idea (Like asteroids or tetris).
Challenging - something which makes you think, not be careless or analyze surroundings.
Changing - When something not much relevant to gameplay changes - graphic, music, mood, enemies, items, feelings, player. things which resolve more around the feelings not coming from controlling the player, but "Feeling" the game.

This is of course my and only my idea about it. If you agree I'm happy that I thought something nice. If not, then The Four Horseman of Apocalypse won't come ^^.
A whole post yet no smiley...

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b0rsuk
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To what skell, mrimer and some others said I'd like to add this:

Unnecessary*
If a player engages in such an activity even if it's not the only possible way, it deffinitely has a stink of grind. I mean repeating identical, or nearly identical actions that carry low (or no) risk and some reward. Some more examples:

My brother killing entire cleric town (Yew?) in Ultima3 for quick cash. He would then leave and enter again (everything respawns). Clerics are hardly any challenge even for low level parties. They're peaceful civilians.

Some towns had big stashes of gold chests, and you could re-enter and steal them for quick cash.

Repetitive ? Check
Boring ? Check
Low/no risk ? Check
Unnecessary ? Check
Verdict: Grind

I don't agree that Tetris or Asteroids is grind. Both games are heavily based on random number generators. This enhances replayability. Tetris and Asteroids don't feel boring (for a while), because it's hard to run into the same situation twice. I don't agree with Maurog. When you're playing Baldur's Gate, unless you sleep in the same place over and over for random encounters (which can vary, by the way) it's not grinding. Each fight is different. It may be a diseased gibberling, a wolf, a rogue wizard, a party of bounty hunters etc. And it's rarely the same.

I think grinding is strongly connected to powergaming and min-maxing. Players engaging in this are likely to be very bad role-players, not care about story etc.

If it's grind, a bot script is often written to automate such activity. Reverse doesn't need to be true. But I *still* consider Angband and variants to be very boring. Namely, in T.O.M.E. , I really disliked orcish mines. They were huge levels filled with huge numbers of very similar enemies.

* Note that the 'Unnecessary' condition is, as the name suggests, unnecessary itself.

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[Last edited by b0rsuk at 03-06-2008 04:36 AM]

Dischorran
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Without getting too far into definitions, I'll respond to the original question:

1. Grinding, for me, falls into basic categories of ends vs. means = bad vs. good. Am I repeating a set of battles because I enjoy the mechanics of the battles (e.g. Disgaea's item world)? That's good. Am I doing so because I'm pulling the lever on a slot machine to try to get the good item that only rarely appears or simply trying to build up my stats (e.g. Diablo)? That's bad. The difference would seem to be the amount of depth to the gameplay of whatever's being repeated to grind. The Final Fantasy style of combat is at its best when just having every character attack fails miserably; Dragon Warrior VII was entertaining, despite its simplicity, when I had to develop strategies of "buff, heal, attack, attack, repeat" that varied for the particular enemy and which character had the most effective weapon.

2. Most RPGs seem to follow the format of providing a very simple skeleton of gameplay around which to build a story. Presentation is key - Dark Cloud 2 was notable for having far and away the best soundtrack I've ever encountered in a game, the Ultima series had well-developed worlds and plots complementing the basic clickfest gameplay, and the Final Fantasy series approaches being an interactive movie. A few take the opposite approach and build a skeletal story around a compelling game mode - this would be Disgaea or Puzzle Quest. It's critical to have at least one of the two! And for the former, grinding is particularly pointless: if the plot is well-managed, you know about how strong the party should be at any given time, and can and should design enemies appropriately.

3. I enjoy roguelikes, but have no particular talent for ones like Nethack because I'm not willing to grind by making endless trips between levels. The combat is quick, so the slot-machine style of play consumes little enough time that larger strategic considerations can take over to make the combat interesting. The process of making the best of whatever the random nature of the game gives you to work with is the heart of the gameplay, to me. Note that since a carefully crafted plot is essentially impossible with a roguelike, the gameplay needs to have the depth that comes from the decade-plus of refinement that many of these games are blessed with!

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Pinnacle
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I've been playing Etrian Odyssey (DS), and I found that the mapping system (you draw the map on the touch screen) among other things, encourages you to explore the entire floor. By then, you should be strong enough to hold your own on the next floor. The game is still exceptionally difficult, but you don't have to grind unless you want bosses to be easy.
Disclaimer: I'm only on the second stratum.

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eb0ny
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More on tetris: I believe that it is grinding, because I have experienced it. Basically, what I did is downloaded Tetris Mania into my mobile phone and played its basic mode. For nine hours (with breaks, of course - the game has continue function).

Playing the game felt like grinding when I have reached level 21. The blocks were falling at the same constant speed of level 20. Same goes for level 22, 23 etc. Then I have completely mastered the speed of the falling blocks. I didn't feel challenged, and got bored. That's when these three conditions apply:

Boredom - Yup, no challenge.
Low-risk - I have mastered that speed, so even if I make a mistake, I can fix it a few lines later. Strictly speaking I couldn't lose by playing the way I did.
Repetition - It might not be repetitive, but it feels repetitive.

And playing tetris during classes is unnecessary. 4 out of 4. That's why I gave up on level 50.

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stigant
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I've played a few MMORPGs, and the only one I enjoyed grinding in was Puzzle Pirates. I think that if anybody, regardless of skill or talent, can eventually reach XXX level by doing something repetitive over and over and over, then reaching XXX level isn't worth any amount of grinding. This is the state of affairs in most RPGs. However, if you have to consistently exhibit a high level of skill to make progress beyond a certain point, then it may be worth it to grind so as to exhibit that skill. This is how things were in Puzzle Pirates. If you were mediocre in a particular puzzle, then you would never achieve Ultimate ranking in that puzzle. However, even if you were incredible at a particular puzzle, you still had to put in the time to show that you could perform at that level consistently over a long period of time. Also, as you demonstrated skill, the difficulty level automatically picked up to challenge you more.

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Beef Row
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Dischorran wrote:
A few take the opposite approach and build a skeletal story around a compelling game mode - this would be Disgaea or Puzzle Quest.

In the case of disgaea, the story may be skeletal but it's hilarious and well-written. And I don't think I'd enjoy Disgaea without it. (I could never get into FF tactics because of dry, badly translated story, clunky interface and horrible horrible camera angles. To become relevant again... even trying to figure out where everyone was posistioned on the board actually felt like a grid in FFT.)

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skell
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eb0ny: the problem is that not Tetris, as an idea is grinding, but Tetris Mania as the game us grinding. Tetris IS repetitive, but is Changing, and Challenging. The problem is that you've become so familiar with it that it became unchallenging, and you knew every combination so it was not changing anymore. The Unnecessary characteristic b0rsuk mentioned, doesn't seem to fit here.
So if you were playing Tetris, where speed increases forever it wouldn't be grinding - it would be challenging, and after some time even impossible . Then it wouldn't be either grinding or not grinding.

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eb0ny
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Well, theoretically one can get skilled enough to master even the top speed - a drop in 1 frame. Like this guy. The game reaches its top block dropping speed in 0:57, its top block release speed in 3:14, and the poor thing is playing with blocks being invisible starting in 5:10.

Still, if he was playing at the top speed and invisibility for some time, he would get bored, because his skill would increase and challenge would decrease.

This particular example shows us, how challenging things do not become grinding.

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skell
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Wow . Insane.
There was also something, what just came out of my mind during the discussion. The whole game cannot be considered Grinding, because grinding is only PART of the game to achieve only part of something. Tetris can't be grinding, because there is no "... to achieve arbitrary goal", as the goal would be playing forever. I can talk about grind, when I gather experience from unchallenging, repetitive and unchanging monsters, but I can't talk about grinding, when I have game which wants me to press left mouse button at last once per second forever, because this is the only goal of the game. The game instead of grinding would be just plain boring and tiring and cumbersome.

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