ErikH2000
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I saw the TV ads for Maplestory. They had nothing to do with the game but were just intriguing enough to make me go look at the website. Hmmm. Casual MMO platformer. That sounds pretty cool.

Then I downloaded the monster 771mb installer and worked my way through the install and character setup screens. The cute and simple graphics looked promising.

Finally, I was able to play the game with my little dude that can walk, climb, jump, and hit things. After about 4 hours of playtime, I killed hundreds of monsters to level up so that I could move onto the next part of the game, which is to choose a profession for my character. The monsters can't actually hurt you in any way at this point in the game. You just have to walk around hitting them over and over again--no skill involved. In many places, the best uh... "strategy" is to just stand in one place and hold down the hit key. The game will stop you from repeatedly hitting after a minute or so, presumably to keep people from leaving a brick on their keyboard overnight.

There are some ridiculous moments where you see a whole screen full of other suckers players monotously beating on monsters in the same way. Step back a moment and wonder: how did we all get tricked into doing this pointless thing?

Sooooooo boring. I gave up when I reached level 9 and uninstalled the dumb thing. Presumably, things would probably get a little more interesting on level 10, where you are allowed to choose to be a warrior, thief, or bowman, but my soul had already been crushed by the tediousness of it all. I just want to warn a few people away from this game, so you don't waste as much time as I did on it.

-Erik

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Thy Dungeonman
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EVERY MMO is a terrible waste of time. because they are mmos.
maplestory is one of the worst, but still.

E: At least you can waste your life clicking on enemies for FREE and without a waiting for hours for a guild in the later game in maplestory, compare that to WOW! WHAT A DEAL.

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[Last edited by Thy Dungeonman at 10-13-2007 09:19 PM]

b0rsuk
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Ultima Online: shores littered with heaps of rotting fishes. No one bothers selling them. Fishing is for maximizing Dex anyway...

Tibia. Pull a lever : a monster appears . Rinse and repeat. It doesn't get any dumber than this.

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BDR
Level: Master Delver

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At least you figured it out before you took your first job. It took me until second job and finding out that *not* taking the optimal skill set that's so obvious to the powergamers on the forums gimped my character to the point that I'd either be spending most of my dough on healing and have nothing for better equips, or spend hours for a handful of percentage points on enemies that I could more easily kill. I'm a bit ashamed to admit that while that character was pretty dead after that, I still played (though with a wizard this time, which is much easier than a bandit for obvious reasons). Eventually I just plain lost interest in even the community (which is pretty much the most unique and convincingly good feature an MMO can have, really), and after that there was no point to keep going.

That said, good MMOs do *not* grow on trees; unfortunately their popularity seems to tell otherwise.

Also, there are Maplestory TV ads? Hmm..

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[Last edited by BDR at 10-13-2007 10:48 PM]

Nillo
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This rant doesn't seem to be directed against just MapleStory, but grinding in MMORPGs in general. Wikipedia has an article about this that explains why people grind, even though it is extremely repetitive.

MMOs differ from other games on many levels, and you have to approach them with a different mindset. From what I can tell, most of us here are Spades (see the Bartle Test), and most of the popular MMOs aren't interesting enough to keep such a player entertained for long.

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Oneiromancer
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I enjoy playing MMOs (have played EQ, EQ2, WoW, and Guild Wars to varying extents) but I really didn't enjoy Maple Story either.

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ErikH2000
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I guess I'm ranting against grinds, but I think Maplestory has a particularly boring grind. The things you are doing to level up could be a little bit interesting at least. Standing in place, holding down a "Z" key is mindnumbingly stupid.

From the social side of it, I didn't see much going on either. Typical IM gamer dialogue like "thx 4 30 shells lol!!!!!". I suppose there might be social planning involved in achieving in-game goals later in the game, but I didn't have the patience for it.

I haven't really played MMOs because I'm scared of getting sucked in for large amounts of time. I like the idea of casual MMOs that you can pick up and put down easy, which is one reason I tried Maplestory. But Maplestory is just too damned boring.

This all makes me think of multiplayer games that Caravel should be making. Cut out the grindfat, and put in multiplayer challenges that require thought. But we got some other stuff to take care of first.

-Erik

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Hikari
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ErikH2000 wrote:

This all makes me think of multiplayer games that Caravel should be making. Cut out the grindfat, and put in multiplayer challenges that require thought. But we got some other stuff to take care of first.

So, uh... Any chance of a faster-paced version of Snakes! ...to the Death in an executable or something?


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zex20913
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You've probably thought of this already, Erik, but some inspiring "multiplayer challenges" may be found in such single-player excursions as "The Lost Vikings", "The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker", and (I think) Gobliins.

One of the things I find about a good multiplayer challenge is the need not only for bodies for switches, but having each person with a unique ability. To Drodify, one would wield a sword, one would have permanent speed potion enabled, one would be invisible, and the like.

2 cents into a coffer that's probably overflowing as it stands.

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calamarain
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The Lost Vikings is a particularly fine example of that.

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NiroZ
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ErikH2000 wrote:
This all makes me think of multiplayer games that Caravel should be making. Cut out the grindfat, and put in multiplayer challenges that require thought. But we got some other stuff to take care of first.

-Erik

I'd best warn you that aspirations like these seen to have become quite common of late, but I've yet to see anything result of this. (from what I know, the few games that have appeared as a result of this idea have either flopped or not lived up to the promise, AFAIK)

Then again, MMO's and most RPG's in general bore me to death fairly quickly. I guess mostly because I fail to see the benefit of the rewards (earn skill points, so you can grind even more!).

roach strangler
Level: Delver
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Haha! My friends cousins, cousin helped to make that game.

BDR
Level: Master Delver

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I'm not sure how this got in my head exactly, but one idea that makes a lot of sense to me is that the main attraction is the content (monsters, environments, equipment, character abilities), while the mechanism determining your level of access to said content is the amount of time you're willing to put into the game (which is generally approximated by the number and types of monsters you fight). The reason that is probably used to justify the necessity of the mechanism in the first place (instead of allowing players to roam freely) is that should players *not* need to kill x hours of time to see all the really cool stuff, they'd end up seeing everything much too soon and leave before they had the chance to buy something or at least donate (though allowing players to buy something to enhance their ability to progress is a feature that's *very* profitable, which is probably another good reason to have the mechanism in the first place). It's not clear that this is even necessarily true, but it's plausible enough that most MMOs have it in some fashion; the trick is that the ordinary single-player games that adhere to this basic model in some fashion have long ago realized that it's not really fun to make this model obvious and that it's much better to at least get breaks in the grind where you don't *have* to kill zillions of enemies to see the next bit of the game, and ideally to have not only other ways to progress besides grinding but for there to be less of it necessary and for it to be challenging and fun on its own. On this account, though, MMOs seem to either lack interesting content (making the grinding pointless), lack interesting mass-slaughter (which means 95% of the playtime is all about the semirandom Skinner benefits as in Maplestory), or lack both (arguably Runescape by the tone of some reviews, but I've not tried that).

EDIT: I looked at the Bartleby test wiki page.. I've got some marked Diamond qualities (though I appreciate the Spade and Heart side of things as well) which seem to me to be pretty visible throughout a person's gaming career. Fortunately, I know of a pretty good litmus test to snap me out of MMOs if I start having doubts about whether it's worth playing. If it looks like I'm playing Progress Quest, or it feels too much like I'm playing an interactive version, it's probably saner to play Progress Quest instead.

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[Last edited by BDR at 10-14-2007 06:04 AM]

Mattcrampy
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I think part of the problem with MMOs is that the idea is to provide enough content so that people don't 'run out', which is impossible if you're making it all yourself. I think this is why a lot of games end up succumbing to grind - it's hard to make something which is easy enough for the vast majority of people to feel like they're getting somewhere, but hard enough so that they don't get there for a while.

Honestly I think, as Erik suggests, that the best solution is to use the fact that you've got multiple people there and build challenges that either need more people, or, even better, get more complex with more people. I had an MMO design kicking around where access for in-game groups to particular areas required them to have some sort of key, which was doled out in limited quantities and stayed persistent in the world (and thus could be stolen, and fell off a character when they logged out.) The intended solution was that these in-game groups would construct a dungeon of their own, using the game's construction abilities, with traps that had been built by players and monsters that had been tamed from the game world and trained to patrol the dungeon. In order to keep their phat lewtz safe, these groups would essentially have to construct content for other players to try and beat.

I have a whole bunch of little ideas for MMOs.

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slimm tom
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I haven't played much MMO's, but I do play WoW. It's really good and you don 't spend your time hitting monsters the same way over and over again. The combat system is really interactive and challenging.
The quests are very funny and challenging also. The only bad thing about WoW is the price. €13,00 each month But I think it's worth it.

Mattcrampy
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It's really good and you don 't spend your time hitting monsters the same way over and over again.

As a WoW player: yeah you do. The combat is certainly more interesting than, say, MapleStory, but not by much, and certainly not to the standard of, say, Final Fantasy Tactics, or even Zelda. Many of the quests ask you to essentially grind various monsters, either collecting credit for each kill, or collecting items that can be looted from the monsters for quest credit, which amounts to the same thing.

Most of the particularly interesting gameplay is at the end of the game - most of the dungeons past level 60 have at least one boss that has a trick to it, as do most of the raid dungeons, but the barebones combat is not very interesting.

(Although so far I think the most interesting thing in the game are the bombing runs at the very end - they're hard to unlock, but once unlocked you're asked to dodge and weave through enemy fire to bomb a series of targets, and it's quite difficult and a fun challenge.)

While I no longer play the game, I still admire the way Puzzle Pirates works compared to regular MMOs - sure, there's a fair bit I'd change if I could, but I like the idea that your 'party' is essentially determined by the boat you're in, and you just need warm bodies to fill those roles.

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Oneiromancer
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What I get out of MMOs is what I get out of single player CRPGs--the exploration of a large world. And because MMOs want you to play for a very long time...the worlds are that much larger. Some games make you grind just to advance anywhere at all. EQ and EQ2 were like this. With EQ, I started playing the game late enough that the world was so huge that I didn't mind as much, because I was always seeing new things. With EQ2, at least the game as it was at launch, it was very boring to me because I was stuck in the same area. (As it is now, EQ2 is a little better because they've released an expansion that has more lower level areas so the world seems larger with more variety.)

WoW doesn't have this problem at low levels because in true Blizzard fashion they balanced the game very well so that you are constantly moving to new areas and exploring more of the world. It's only once you get to maximum level in WoW that you are stuck doing the same thing over and over again. Some people enjoy running the same dungeons many times just to get a minor item upgrade. The first character I got to maximum level was on the Horde side, and I stopped playing him almost immediately. I then took an Alliance character to max level--it was through many of the same areas, but the story was different so I still found it interesting. I've never been able to do it again.

I have lots more of my own theories on grinding and MMOs, but I think I'll let them rest for now.

____________________________
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MeckMeck GRE
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I just browsed through the homepage of maplestory. Those characters and monsters are so cute... how can you actually attak these poor cute things? Isn't it actually a game for 7-11 year olds? Well, at least it's completly free...

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[Last edited by MeckMeck GRE at 10-14-2007 05:15 PM]

b0rsuk
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I used to play some MUDs, but eventually technical limitations combined with grinding drove me off. I'm not against fighting in games, but it can't be repetitive.

http://thenoobcomic.com/daily/strip001.html

This comic starts very nicely, but unfortunately runs out of steam later. You can probably give up after 100th strip or so.


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[Last edited by b0rsuk at 10-14-2007 06:13 PM]

Thy Dungeonman
Level: Delver
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All I know about MMOs:

WOW: Refuse to touch due to horror stories about "my friend was eaten by WOW he doesn't do anything but play it anymore", and from what I've heard once you get to a high level to do anything interesting you have to join a guild and raid with them on their time and it becomes some kind of joblike unfun crap.

maplestory: pretty much erik's experience.

Kingdom of Loathing: got bored early on.

Most other MMOs have such noxious audiences (EVE) that I don't really want to try anymore.

Really, I have not seen a single MMO that offers anything that is not a better experience than a comparable single player game or as a "group of friends" multiplayer game.

See, everyone is a character, but you can't expect them to stay as that character all the time. You can make a game that depends on teamwork and what all to get the next shiny thing, but what happens if everyone isn't online at the time? If you want a world where everyone is a real person, you're going to have to get THEM to devote themselves to it. Which makes your audience for the game people with too much free time who take hitting the next crab to death to get a new bra for their night-elf WAY TOO SERIOUSLY. There are other factors as well that lead to MMOs having gameplay that's simple stupid and repititive, AND you have to pay for it! LOVELY!

So what do you get? A game that doesn't have interesting gameplay compared to a single player game, and you HAVE to stay in it because others are depending on you, and most people playing it (in my experience) are absolute troglodytes and... ew.

Yeah, I don't see a point in making ANYTHING an MMO.

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[Last edited by Thy Dungeonman at 10-15-2007 12:45 AM]

Jatopian
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Kingdom of Loathing is great the first ascension or two. After that, it's still good... if you use scripts to cut out the boring parts. Unfortunately NS13 saw the introduction of more grinding, between the new BHH and the sheer leveling requirements.

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malkav11
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Pretty much every free Korean (or Asian, in general) MMO I've tried has been a bland grindfest. Maple Story mixes things up a little tiny bit more than usual in that it's platformer-styled, but...yeah. I think there's something about the Korean mindset and internet culture that makes these things work over there. Here, I really don't know why you'd bother.

I mean, yeah, it doesn't cost any money, but everything costs time, and surely you can find a better value for your time than these things.

DROD, for example.

Bingbing
Level: Goblin
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Wow. I can't stay hooked on to any MMO. Only one that even worked was Planetside. That game was just fun.

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Tombot
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In maple story there is a boat, it is one of the first things you see when you arrive into the main game. The boat costs a lot to board and where does it take you? Why, to a beautiful tropical island of course! Just one problem though: You have to pay to get back. No return trip with this folks, no way no how. The real kicker though is that the island is infested with near endless hordes of enemies that can (and often will) be several times more powerful than you and are thus, indestructible.

It was about the second time I got killed by a monkey throwing a banana that I realised what I was being killed by and how horribly humiliating it was.
Sufficed to say I uninstalled it, and contrary to stereotype I looked back; if only to ensure that I never let this happen to me ever again.

My one other memory of this game was some stupid jerk who wore loads of store bought stuff came swaggering in apparently called somthing stupid like "yiff yiff, I'm a furry yiff yiff of the skritch skritch fursona! clan" (paraphrasing), I teleported away when he asked me for my wooden sword.

I can't say I've tried another multiplayer role playing game since.

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Ravon
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malkav11 wrote:
Maple Story mixes things up a little tiny bit more than usual in that it's platformer-styled,

But that's just it. Sure, Maple Story has all the elements of a platformer (as in, you jump on platforms), but the jump is so tiny, and it caters to such a ridiculously dumb audience that none of the "skill" needed is even remotely similar to that needed to play mario, for example. Really, if I download a platformer, I want to play a platformer. Not a simplistic grind in which you occasionally climb upwards.

I probably would have played Maple Story passed level 5 or so if I saw the potential for a good platformer. Or even a platformer that allowed me to not get hit by jumping over enemies once in a while.

Oh, and, hello again everyone...