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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Feature Requests : for Imperatives Invulnerable and Required Target not to be mutually exclusive
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Jatopian
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icon for Imperatives Invulnerable and Required Target not to be mutually exclusive (+2)  
I discovered a most unintuitive behavior of the scripting engine today. I had a script set up to enforce a condition of room completion, as follows:
Appear
Imperative Required Target
Wait for event Player activates orb
Imperative Invulnerable

To my dismay, I discovered that when an NPC becomes "Invulnerable" it can no longer be a required target for room clear gate toggling. After checking with the helpful coppro, I ascertained that this was indeed intentional (hence the placement of this topic in Feature Requests), and was probably to prevent some sort of abuse by architects.

I would now argue that these two imperatives should not be mutually exclusive, for three reasons. Firstly, that it is not at all intuitive; secondly, that it makes for one of the most elegant ways to enforce a puzzle condition short of no scripting at all; thirdly and most importantly, that it prevents some puzzle potential. For you must see that just as the wubba is not truly invulnerable to death, neither is a so-called "Invulnerable" character. It may still be killed in several ways, including:
* dropping off of platforms
* briar
* having pit/water built under it
* any number of unusual customized conditions set by the architect
And as custom monsters are gaining popularity and legitimacy, anyone can see how having to kill an "Invulnerable" character could easily be an essential aspect of some worthy puzzle.

For all these reasons I promote this behavioral change. And if some foolish architect should try to abuse the potential, as one might any of the many other abusable elements of DROD (i.e. just about everything), we shall do what has always been effective: Play another hold.

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[Last edited by Jatopian at 01-23-2008 11:55 PM]
01-22-2008 at 11:54 PM
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skell
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icon Re: for Imperatives Invulnerable and Required Target not to be mutually exclusive (0)  
You have my complete support with this. Brilliant idea :).

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01-23-2008 at 12:01 AM
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calamarain
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icon Re: for Imperatives Invulnerable and Required Target not to be mutually exclusive (0)  
Jatopian wrote:
For you must see that just as the wubba is not truly invulnerable to death, neither is a so-called "Invulnerable" character. It may still be killed in several ways, including:
* dropping off of platforms
* explosion
* briar
* having pit/water built under it
* hot tile
* any number of unusual customized conditions set by the architect
Actually, that's not true. "Invulnerable" characters do not die to hot tiles or explosions. The only ways to kill them are falling into a pit/water or with briars.

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01-23-2008 at 05:04 AM
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NoahT
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icon Re: for Imperatives Invulnerable and Required Target not to be mutually exclusive (0)  
Nevertheless, it still has puzzle potential. I like this idea, and AFAIK, it shouldn't break any existing holds.

-Noah

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01-23-2008 at 05:23 AM
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Briareos
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icon Re: for Imperatives Invulnerable and Required Target not to be mutually exclusive (0)  
calamarain wrote:
"Invulnerable" characters do not die to hot tiles or explosions. The only ways to kill them are falling into a pit/water or with briars.
How about adding "Imperative Nigh Invulnerable" for Wubba-like invulnerability, then? :)

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01-23-2008 at 08:37 AM
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calamarain
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icon Re: for Imperatives Invulnerable and Required Target not to be mutually exclusive (0)  
Briareos wrote:
calamarain wrote:
"Invulnerable" characters do not die to hot tiles or explosions. The only ways to kill them are falling into a pit/water or with briars.
How about adding "Imperative Nigh Invulnerable" for Wubba-like invulnerability, then? :)
Ah, but that's not as much fun :P I actually like having a character that can't die from most conventional means. Leads to unique puzzles.

Just because it's not mentioned above either - Invulnerable characters can't be eaten by adders either.

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01-23-2008 at 09:37 AM
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Briareos
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calamarain wrote:
Briareos wrote:
How about adding "Imperative Nigh Invulnerable" for Wubba-like invulnerability, then? :)
Ah, but that's not as much fun :P I actually like having a character that can't die from most conventional means. Leads to unique puzzles.
Ummm... I meant that as an additional imperative, not as a change to "Imperative Invulnerable" - so you can have your cake* and eat it, too.

* may be a lie

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01-23-2008 at 09:56 AM
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calamarain
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Briareos wrote:
[Ummm... I meant that as an additional imperative, not as a change to "Imperative Invulnerable" - so you can have your cake* and eat it, too.

* may be a lie
Pardon my smugness, but I have cake here, right in front of me. No lie. Just lots and lots of chocolate icing.

And you can't have any!

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01-23-2008 at 11:09 AM
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Mattcrampy
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icon Re: for Imperatives Invulnerable and Required Target not to be mutually exclusive (0)  
Oh geez, you're making invulnerable monsters now?

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01-23-2008 at 11:53 AM
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calamarain
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icon Re: for Imperatives Invulnerable and Required Target not to be mutually exclusive (0)  
Already did :P See Below Witherwood.

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01-23-2008 at 11:57 AM
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mrimer
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icon Re: for Imperatives Invulnerable and Required Target not to be mutually exclusive (0)  
I'm fine with modifying the imperative logic so that alternative options like these are not mutually exclusive. I wonder whether there are any published NPC scripts that expect imperatives to be mut.ex., though, and would break with this change.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 01-23-2008 04:57 PM]
01-23-2008 at 04:57 PM
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Jatopian
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icon Re: for Imperatives Invulnerable and Required Target not to be mutually exclusive (0)  
mrimer wrote:
I'm fine with modifying the imperative logic so that alternative options like these are not mutually exclusive. I wonder whether there are any published NPC scripts that expect imperatives to be mut.ex., though, and would break with this change.
I have never encountered any, and I've played at least part of all the higher-rated published TCB holds. If any is... hmm... can Required Target be undone?

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01-23-2008 at 11:54 PM
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coppro
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icon Re: for Imperatives Invulnerable and Required Target not to be mutually exclusive (+1)  
Currently, only through one of the other imperatives that are mutually exclusive (Required Target, Invulnerable, and Mission Critical)
01-24-2008 at 12:26 AM
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Someone Else
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icon Re: for Imperatives Invulnerable and Required Target not to be mutually exclusive (0)  
How about Imperative Unstabbable?
01-24-2008 at 01:49 AM
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Jatopian
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icon Re: for Imperatives Invulnerable and Required Target not to be mutually exclusive (0)  
Another feature request then: That these imperatives and stuffs be togglable.

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01-24-2008 at 01:53 AM
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