BeefontheBone
Level: Master Delver

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The anthropic principle, which should be applied with caution, tells us that that question is arguably not worth answering - in order for anyone to be around to ask it, there by definition has to be something rather than nothing. The existence of humanity is a sufficient (though clearly not a neccessary) condition for the universe to be arranged in such a way that we can exist, however improbable that arrangement may be.

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Braindead's Mordor Site - Dungeon crawling having nothing whatsoever to do with LotR. Plus a freeware remake in-progress, featuring descriptive text written by yours truly!

Beef Row wrote: Actually, it doesn't really matter because the soap is a lye.

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[Last edited by BeefontheBone at 05-27-2008 09:16 PM]

mrimer
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Mr. Slice, you get to ask a question when you win a round. First, we must provide answers to Tahnan's question, since it's his turn now. Everyone, do your best!

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

Mr. Slice
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Sorry, but Tahnan didn't exactly say anything after our discussion. I figure he either forgot or lost interest entirely.

Anyway, to stay on topic:
Because your question is a thing and I will not stand for inconsistency.

____________________________
"To see or to hear is to know, but to
do is to understand"

Tahnan
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Mr. Slice wrote:
Sorry, but Tahnan didn't exactly say anything after our discussion. I figure he either forgot or lost interest entirely.

I have to admire your ability to continue to find new and exciting ways to lower my estimation of you. I posted my question less than 24 hours ago. And I couldn't even begin to comprehend (a) the way in which this thread had been derailed, or (b) what "binary speaking" was supposed to mean.

In any case, BeefontheBone's answer is a non-answer; it explains only why things exist given that humanity exists, but that takes our existence a priori. Elfstone, I fear, may be right, but too darned pessimistic.

My favorite answer is still that of Sidney Morgenbesser, Jewish philosopher: "Even if there were nothing, you’d still be complaining!" Rabscuttle came decently close, so I'll grant him the points.

Jatopian
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Tahnan wrote:
In any case, BeefontheBone's answer is a non-answer; it explains only why things exist given that humanity exists, but that takes our existence a priori.

"Cogito ergo sum." is a non-answer now? When did this happen, and how did the universe not implode when it did?

Seriously.

____________________________
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Make your pressure plates 3.0 style!
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Mr. Slice
Level: Disabled
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Wrong threads, which would really throw someone off, and your question wasn't as obvious as a question as I thought it would be, so I thought we were derailing it.

Oh, and I really love your sarcasm. (This is sarcastic as well)

____________________________
"To see or to hear is to know, but to
do is to understand"

Tahnan
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Jatopian wrote:

Tahnan wrote:
In any case, BeefontheBone's answer is a non-answer; it explains only why things exist given that humanity exists, but that takes our existence a priori.

"Cogito ergo sum." is a non-answer now? When did this happen, and how did the universe not implode when it did?

"Cogito ergo sum" proves only that something exists. It doesn't provide any indication as to why. Or rather, it's a statement of epistemology: it tells us how we know that there's something instead of nothing. But understanding how I know that grass is green doesn't explain why grass is green, and understanding how I know that anything exists doesn't explain why anything exists.

Beef Row
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Tahnan wrote:
But understanding how I know that grass is green doesn't explain why grass is green, and understanding how I know that anything exists doesn't explain why anything exists.

Depends whether you approach this as a matter of physics or a matter of psychology.

Psychologically speaking, colors are one way we categorize our perceptions, and so grass IS green because we percieve it to be green, or in some cases percieve it to be brown or yellow, and argue that nonetheless it ought to be green.

____________________________
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The spitemaster
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I think that the only thing that you can assume is that reality doesn't exist without something to witness it's existence. (By witnessing you have to be able to change an outcome (and care) by observing prior events) Because if you have nothing, nobody is around to see everything not being there.

Psychology is just one way of defining something that is there. When there is nothing psychology is a moot point.

The problem with this view point (for some people) is that it requires someone to witness creation. Science has conclusively proven that the universe is not infinite but had a distinct beginning. The theory states that something does not exist without a witness. (The tree does not fall if there is no way of the information reaching the witness. By either examining past evidence or otherwise) Therefore, you need a witness be there the moment of creation. (Because the universe would not exist at the beginning without the witness)

So I agree with beefonthebone.

____________________________
Last night upon a stair
I met a man that wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish that man would stay away

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[Last edited by The spitemaster at 06-03-2008 05:21 AM]

Snacko
Level: Smiter
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Jatopian wrote:
Actually, I think all the answers were correct to some degree. But we seem to have missed the "real" answer: *slaps calamarain with one hand*

Slapping people is mean, you should be ashamed of yourself!
*slaps Jatopian*

____________________________
Director of the Department of Orderly Disruptions

wonkyth
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 15
Registered: 06-18-2007
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Hey, Ladies!
Chill...

____________________________
"Satire denounces the world;
Wit penetrates it;
Humour accepts it;
But Nonsense Transforms it"
- Cedric Whitman
w.r.t. Aristophanes

wonkyth
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 15
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Sheesh!
Can't you lot take a joke!

____________________________
"Satire denounces the world;
Wit penetrates it;
Humour accepts it;
But Nonsense Transforms it"
- Cedric Whitman
w.r.t. Aristophanes

Tahnan
Level: Smitemaster

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wonkyth wrote:
Sheesh!
Can't you lot take a joke!

Yes. Let us know when you make one.

wonkyth
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 15
Registered: 06-18-2007
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Seems we aren't on the same wavelength.
it's just the way I communicate, I'm not trying to be Spiteful.


Okay, heres a joke: Why did the chicken cross the road?

See?
Still not funny, am I?


I'm still smiling, as always.
Even if it is becoming apparent that I'm gonna hit rock bottom ModPoint wise

____________________________
"Satire denounces the world;
Wit penetrates it;
Humour accepts it;
But Nonsense Transforms it"
- Cedric Whitman
w.r.t. Aristophanes

Monkey
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 190
Registered: 03-21-2006
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Don't try to defend yourself, because you're putting yourself in a worse position doing so.

____________________________
lurking

wonkyth
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 15
Registered: 06-18-2007
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I get used to that...

____________________________
"Satire denounces the world;
Wit penetrates it;
Humour accepts it;
But Nonsense Transforms it"
- Cedric Whitman
w.r.t. Aristophanes

The spitemaster
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 354
Registered: 06-09-2005
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Chances are: if people tell you that you are stupid
-either you are
-or they are beginning to hate you

Likely it's both in this case.

____________________________
Last night upon a stair
I met a man that wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish that man would stay away

NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1302
Registered: 02-12-2006
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The spitemaster wrote:
Chances are: if people tell you that you are stupid
-either you are
-or they are beginning to hate you

Likely it's both in this case.

Where did someone say that wonkyth was stupid? (other than your post, of course) They just got annoyed because he tried to join in their mucking around in an inappropriate way.

Snacko
Level: Smiter
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Nothing is something as something is nothing, for there be a lack of existence, then there is nothing, this nothing exists, creating something.

There can not be nothing if there can not be something. So, the reason there is something instead of nothing is that nothing is something and thus not nothing, nothing is a non existent vacuum in which all existence is allowed to not exist and thus exist.

____________________________
Director of the Department of Orderly Disruptions

calamarain
Level: Smitemaster

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Snacko wrote:
Nothing is something as something is nothing, for there be a lack of existence, then there is nothing, this nothing exists, creating something.

There can not be nothing if there can not be something. So, the reason there is something instead of nothing is that nothing is something and thus not nothing, nothing is a non existent vacuum in which all existence is allowed to not exist and thus exist.

Or in other words... "Stuff happens."

____________________________
My Holds

Snacko
Level: Smiter
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Anything that happens, happens.

Anything that, in happening, causes something else to happen, causes something else to happen.

Anything that, in happening, causes itself to happen again, happens again.

It doesn't necessarily do it in chronological order, though.

____________________________
Director of the Department of Orderly Disruptions

BeefontheBone
Level: Master Delver

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Que sera sera...

Can I just point out that the Anthropic Principle by no means indicates that "something must have witnessed creation", only that if something DID witness "creation", said creation must by definition have resulted in a situation condusive to the existence of the witness. Not that there was any sort of creation in the sense with which the word is commonly used - if there had been, the creator must itself have been created by some other at-least-as-complex entity, and so on ad infinitum. 's turtles all the way down.

____________________________
Braindead's Mordor Site - Dungeon crawling having nothing whatsoever to do with LotR. Plus a freeware remake in-progress, featuring descriptive text written by yours truly!

Beef Row wrote: Actually, it doesn't really matter because the soap is a lye.

Snacko
Level: Smiter
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Thus proving there is no God.

____________________________
Director of the Department of Orderly Disruptions

Ravon
Level: Master Delver

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No, thus proving there is no creator. It's a completely different thing really.

Someone Else
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1304
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I disagree with that. Nobody said that you had to be able to comprehend it.

Snacko
Level: Smiter
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Registered: 06-08-2006
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I read somewhere that God represents a being more powerful than anything else, thus if a being exists and is not God, there must be something more powerful than it. For God to create existence, he must have created his own existence. Take into account what Beefonthebone said, for something to exist while there was no existence would be something more powerful than God, thus the idea of God is flawed.

Of course my post simply took an idea that is equally flawed and ran with it which is fairly typical of my posts.

On a slightly related note, I think Tahnan beat the topic.

____________________________
Director of the Department of Orderly Disruptions

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[Last edited by Snacko at 06-25-2008 11:22 PM]

calamarain
Level: Smitemaster

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Just to derail things - the odds are that almost every single argument we could make for/against a supreme being has been made already Wikipedia has a collection of the major ones

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Znirk
Level: Smitemaster

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Ah, but why is there Wikipedia instead of nothing?

calamarain
Level: Smitemaster

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Znirk wrote:
Ah, but why is there Wikipedia instead of nothing?

Because.

____________________________
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NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
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But my dad said wikipedia doesn't exist!