Spanky
Level: Roachling

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Registered: 04-20-2007
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I read through all the stickied threads on architecture, but none of them cater to the, erm...artistic aspect. (Although I played Ketchup and Puppies- it was pretty fun!) I want to design a hold called Dragon's Lair- basically each level will be shaped like a dragon. I did some trial and error designing and found out how hard this is to accomplish without some sort of a map drawn out on paper


Also, it's a bit hard to make *actually-fun* puzzles and still keep the main design. Sometimes it's just plain impossible. Any tips or advice?

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vittro
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File: Example.hold (2.2 KB)
Downloaded 50 times.
License: Public Domain

Just use your imagination, and check my "Architects' ideas" thread.

I'm now building awesome puzzles, thanks to the help of the community. Here's what I do :

1) I think the main idea of the puzzle ( ex. orb puzzle, trapdoor puzzle, misc puzzle )
2) I often select a "basic element" of the puzzle, it may be Fegundos, Guards, Goblins, tarstuff, etc...
3) I start planning an idea...
4) I put a goblin and think : This is easy... But what could make it harder?
5) Same step as 4.
6) I countinue steps as 4 when finally the puzzle is very hard, if it's too hard, I remove something, or make the very hard version to a secret room.
7) Test your puzzles. It's stupid to have impossible puzzles in your hold.
8) Decorations aren't required, but they make the puzzles very cool. So I often put obstacles or talking NPCs.

A more pratical example :

1) I've got a room, with the shape of a dragon.
2) All the corners remind me of level 7 of KDD.
3) So I put a lot of evil eyes.
4) I test the room, and see that's easy and boring.
5) So I start thinking to what could make it harder and better.
6) I add a big pit in the dragon shape with a big platform.
7) The evil eyes can see through pits, so they can get me on the platform.
8) In the upper part of the room I may add trapdoors and rock giants and a red door. So you mustn't kill the giants on trapdoors.
9) Sounds easy, what else to add?
10) What about a little orb puzzle in the NW part of the room?
11) Intresting, a room is done.
12) Mhh... I just added a NPC timer, so the player must be really efficient.
13) That's not a bad idea, but it can be frustrating. What about makeing the room with the timer a secret room?
14) Oh, and for the grand finale, some "evil" pressure plates, that mustn't be pressed, or else the exit door will close.

P.S. Ta-da ! Example hold!

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http://vittorioromeo.info

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[Last edited by vittro at 05-14-2007 06:24 PM]

Yellow_Mage
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 267
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It much harder to develop rooms around a specific architectural design, but many puzzles can condensed into a much smaller area so you can ignore structural irregularities within a room.

Examples of empcompassing structural design -

Nooks, crannies, and crevices - tar can be used as an efficiency timer growing into a crevice which you don't want a tar baby being produced out of it. Crevices are good places where you could possibly retreat from a group of monsters, be it roaches or goblins, a place to kill snakes, a place for pressure plates.

Trapdoors - can be part of the design, in which a room you need to drop all the trapdoors the overall design is shown. Good placement of inner walls and trapdoors can make interesting puzzles once you thought of a good way to introduce enemies into it. Classically goblins needed be used for something.

Pits vs. Walls (and water) - changing the walls to pits having wraithwings, using platforms to reach other rooms that aren't walled off, and still retain design. Pits are better than water for that, but water can be used as design filler. Since tarstuff is coloured nicely in DROD3 (tar is very purplely is DROD2), you can do pure design stuff with tarstuff, plus water, and shade in a dragon. Tho' it could suffer as a puzzle room, white water rafting and cutting through tarstuff with water skippers would be an interesting combination on its own.

That's all I have to offer. The main difficulty in this is not the actually design of puzzle in the rooms, but how you would exit the rooms and how are they connected together. It's far easier to design the room layout first, make an exit (which is far more important), then specify the entrance and decide how you want the rooms to connect to each other, which can change (I say the only thing you should change as you progress as you should be stubborn on the exit) as you design the puzzles.


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"Sit and daydream, and watch the changing color of the waves that break upon the idle seashore of the mind." - Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

calamarain
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 933
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Spanky wrote:
Also, it's a bit hard to make *actually-fun* puzzles and still keep the main design. Sometimes it's just plain impossible. Any tips or advice?

Something that I find works rather well is to design a basic boring puzzle. Once you have the core of the puzzle, then jazz it up. I find it a lot easier to turn a boring puzzle into a cool one than design a cool one from scratch. e.g.

Got a horde of roaches to fight? Add in a tarstuff timer, so if you don't kill the roaches quickly enough, the way is blocked. Have evil eyes staring at various squares that you can't step on. have pressure plates that you or the roaches cannot step on. Force arrows to make their movement more unpredictable.

Trapdoor floor? Make it so you have to keep a fegundo alive at the same time for later. Add arrows on the trapdoors to make the puzzle trickier. Sprinkle in a wraithwing or two. Add a goblin or two on the trapdoors to kill. Include platforms that only become free once a few doors have fallen.

Snake puzzle with dead ends? Add in roach queens behind force arrows to hassle you. Add in orthosquares here and there to make it tricky. Add brains that must be killed before you can trap them. Mix in a rattlesnake. Make Beethro do it swordless, using bombs only.

Start simple, and build on puzzles. Trying to do one big cool puzzle at once often fails, unless you have a clear idea of what you'd like to do from the start. If you don't have such an idea, stick with the boring puzzle, then jazz it up.

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My Holds

Spanky
Level: Roachling

Rank Points: 11
Registered: 04-20-2007
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I forgot to mention that I'm using Architect's Edition, I don't have the money to buy JtRH or TCB yet, so a lot of the elements you're used to, I can't use. Sorry- I should have mentioned it earlier!

I'll probably redo my hold once I buy them however, so your advice doesn't go to waste. ^_^;

I did come up with a bunch of ideas while waiting for replies...weird how that happened after weeks of frustration.

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calamarain
Level: Smitemaster

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Spanky wrote:
I forgot to mention that I'm using Architect's Edition, I don't have the money to buy JtRH or TCB yet, so a lot of the elements you're used to, I can't use. Sorry- I should have mentioned it earlier!

I'll probably redo my hold once I buy them however, so your advice doesn't go to waste. ^_^;

I did come up with a bunch of ideas while waiting for replies...weird how that happened after weeks of frustration.

I point out in return that the demos of JtRH and TCB are free. And these both contain the editors and all the required elements. You might not be able to play the actual *game* of JtRH and TCB, but you are able to create holds and play holds that other users have created. The demo contains the full game engine, just not the core game. You're just restricted to usermade holds.

Though the core games rock

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My Holds

Spanky
Level: Roachling

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calamarain wrote:

I point out in return that the demos of JtRH and TCB are free. And these both contain the editors and all the required elements.

Oh really? Yay! Thanks!
Do you have any suggestions as to usermade holds, so I can get used to the newer elements?

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calamarain
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Spanky wrote:

calamarain wrote:

I point out in return that the demos of JtRH and TCB are free. And these both contain the editors and all the required elements.

Oh really? Yay! Thanks!
Do you have any suggestions as to usermade holds, so I can get used to the newer elements?

Not too sure. Journey to the Goblin Kingdom is a generally positively received one, but most of the usermade holds I've played have been AE rather than JtRH or CB.

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My Holds

Jatopian
Level: Smitemaster
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There aren't really too many TCB holds at the moment. Those that exist I think were mostly done in JtRH anyway.

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DROD has some really great music.
Make your pressure plates 3.0 style!
DROD architecture idea generator

kie
Level: Master Delver

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If you want to see an artistic JtRH hold, have a look at this.

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cheers, kie

Blondbeard
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Spanky wrote:

calamarain wrote:

I point out in return that the demos of JtRH and TCB are free. And these both contain the editors and all the required elements.

Oh really? Yay! Thanks!
Do you have any suggestions as to usermade holds, so I can get used to the newer elements?

That depends on how difficult you would like the holds you play to be. In general you can find holds sorted after raiting here. Those that have a little JtRH icon are JtRH holds.

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 05-15-2007 07:55 AM]

Spanky
Level: Roachling

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In the JtRH level editor- it only has 3 room style options and they all look the same. Is it like that because it's the demo version?

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Neathro
Level: Delver

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Yes that's right, you can only use foundation.

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NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
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Neathro wrote:
Yes that's right, you can only use foundation.

I'm fairly sure that you can set the other styles, you just can't see them.

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[Last edited by NiroZ at 05-29-2007 10:27 AM]

calamarain
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NiroZ wrote:

Neathro wrote:
Yes that's right, you can only use foundation.

I'm fairly sure that you can set the other styles, you just can't see them.

Yeah. Foundation's a nice style, but I have to say that I prefer Deep Spaces. With a little changing of floor tiles, you can get so many different sub-styles out of it

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Spanky
Level: Roachling

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Well, the ruins my idea for different-colored dragons...but the decorative tiles and more monsters makes up for it

kie, thanks for showing me that hold, it gave me lots of ideas.

And thanks everyone else, I won't need any more help until I'm having you test the levels

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calamarain
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Spanky wrote:
Well, the ruins my idea for different-colored dragons...but the decorative tiles and more monsters makes up for it

kie, thanks for showing me that hold, it gave me lots of ideas.

And thanks everyone else, I won't need any more help until I'm having you test the levels

Mmmm. I'm in a similar situation. You just wanna sit back and make level after level, and you're full of ideas

I'm near the end of my own project now, and when it's done, will be mostly recording the speech for it, so if you're done when I am - I should be able to beta test.

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My Holds

Dex Stewart
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Spanky wrote:
Well, the ruins my idea for different-colored dragons...but the decorative tiles and more monsters makes up for it

kie, thanks for showing me that hold, it gave me lots of ideas.

And thanks everyone else, I won't need any more help until I'm having you test the levels

Good luck mate. You'll need it. (: