NiroZ
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ErikH2000 wrote:
I don't think the puzzle of returning to the room to defeat it is really worth the inelegance of telling the player they've screwed up. I've just revised the room to force the room to be conquered on first visit.

-Erik

Heh, I was going to say that that room was definately not [sic] 'Moshly Undajrus'

The entrance

1S1E
Seeing as it takes a bit of fiddling, a checkpoint in either the SE or NE corner could be useful.

1S
Could use a checkpoint around where the tunnels are.

This wouldn't have been a bad replacement for forgotten ruins.

1S1W
Just isn't the same without the voices. I'd be interested to know the least number of circles you have to make to finish the room.

1W
Might be an interesting challenge to try and kill the serpent without triggering the pressure plate

and that's as far as I've gotten thus far.

Stefan
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NiroZ wrote:
1S1W
Just isn't the same without the voices. I'd be interested to know the least number of circles you have to make to finish the room.

I'd say two. Three if you count the one you need to make after dropping the green door.

1W
Might be an interesting challenge to try and kill the serpent without triggering the pressure plate

It's actually quite easy (Aumtlich at (6,16)-(6,19), (17,20) or (18,19) are probably the easiest places).

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NiroZ
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The Entrance (cont)
1N
Quite tricky, but once you learn not to rush, it's rather simple. I felt rather evil killing the Aumlich's, but meh. The chatter added a bit of colour to the room.

1N1E
Would be nice to have another checkpoint in the section section, as there's a bit of trail and error finding where each mimic can go.

I really liked the two part puzzle here, and I didn't realise the awesome interaction between mimics and Aumliches until now.

1N1W
Nasty trick at the start with, as it too me a while to figure out which Aumlich to kill and which not to kill. I can't see a point for the lower checkpoint, as it's too far out of the way when starting the room, which would be it's only use. Perhaps if it was moved into the lower part of the 'box with the bombs' it would be a lot more useful.

2N1W
Man, I never knew that Aumliches could light fuses like that!
I couldn't see the point of the hot tiles or the orbs, and I assume that they're some kind of red herring, just like the roach, correct?

First Secret room
Looks very ugly to start with, but it's not so bad.

Second Secret room
Oh, you are evil. However, I realised pretty soon that

All in all, a rather nice hold (a lot better than some of the levels in TCB). Reminded me of Smallsome Swicks, which is no surprise. I'm not sure if it's because I'm a better player now or not, but I found this hold to be slightly easier than it.

NiroZ
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Stefan wrote:

NiroZ wrote:
1S1W
Just isn't the same without the voices. I'd be interested to know the least number of circles you have to make to finish the room.

I'd say two. Three if you count the one you need to make after dropping the green door.

Hmmm, yeah. There isn't as much flexibility in the pressure plates as I thought.

ErikH2000
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Thanks for the comments, NiroZ. I've updated the hold with better checkpoints based on your suggestions.

NiroZ wrote:
Man, I never knew that Aumliches could light fuses like that!
I couldn't see the point of the hot tiles or the orbs, and I assume that they're some kind of red herring, just like the roach, correct?

All the orbs should have a purpose, or there is an unintended solution. The hot tiles are to prevent decoy placement in that chamber, but I just realized that hot tiles don't work for that. So I changed them to trapdoors. Hmm. Maybe your solution was using decoy placement in that chamber and that's why you didn't need all the orbs.

Updating the hold at the top of the topic.

-Erik

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Stefan
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File: 41507 450PM DtGH The Entrance 2N1W Victory.demo (1.2 KB)
Downloaded 41 times.
License: Public Domain

I can still solve 2N1W without hitting any orbs. Demos of two ways of doing this is attached.

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NiroZ
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File: DtGH The Entrance 2N1W Victory.demo (1 KB)
Downloaded 42 times.
License: Public Domain

ErikH2000 wrote:
All the orbs should have a purpose, or there is an unintended solution. The hot tiles are to prevent decoy placement in that chamber, but I just realized that hot tiles don't work for that. So I changed them to trapdoors. Hmm. Maybe your solution was using decoy placement in that chamber and that's why you didn't need all the orbs.

Updating the hold at the top of the topic.

-Erik

I still don't need to strike either orb.

<- Watch

You can use the decoy for 3 things. To strike the lower orb, to block the gaze of the left Aumlich, or to smite the roach.

EDIT: hehe, this is a rather amusing post collision I must say

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[Last edited by NiroZ at 04-15-2007 03:04 PM]

Jeff_Ray...
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I can do that room without the decoy. I don't have a demo, as I did it in the editor.

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[Last edited by Jeff_Ray... at 04-15-2007 03:14 PM]

ErikH2000
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Ugh. I think I've been a little lazy with my quick fixes to 2N1W. I will need to think about it a little more carefully to eliminate all these unintended solutions.

-Erik

____________________________
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schep
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Hold Mastered! That was fun.

The dialogue and winding passages give this a really great feel.

I also found the "unintended" solution for 2N1W first. But I really think it's more interesting than the one using all the orbs.

So I would consider looking for a way to break the intended solution so that it becomes a red herring. Preferably in a way that's obvious once something goes wrong, so it's not too cruel.

I liked 1E the way it was before. I headed that way first after reading the signpost. "This is too easy. Aha, but if I kill it right away, I'll never get through that passage to the south." And then maybe Beethro repeated what I just thought; I don't remember. That hold submission guideline is fairly subjective, after all: we have Fool's Errand and Compass Point which fly in its face. And I know, according to Murphy's Law, if there's any way to make an unwinnable room entrance save game, somebody will go ahead and do it, no matter how many warnings you put in. I guess it matters how much false sense of accomplishment it's possible to "waste" before discovering the mistake. Enough rambling on that. I don't even know what it is I'm trying to suggest.

EDIT: Oh, wait, I see. There are many unintended solutions, including one that doesn't use any orb or the decoy potion. Yeah, that's not so good.

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[Last edited by schep at 04-15-2007 09:49 PM]

ErikH2000
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schep wrote:
I liked 1E the way it was before. I headed that way first after reading the signpost. "This is too easy. Aha, but if I kill it right away, I'll never get through that passage to the south."

Yeah, I'm glad you understand what I was going for. I think it's probably not worth breaking backtracking though.

I updated the hold again with, I think, a fixed version of 2N1W. There is also a "challenge" solution that is a fair bit harder than the normal one.

Using a decoy to influence the aumtlich beam *is* pretty clever, and maybe would be good to use for a different room.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

NiroZ
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ErikH2000 wrote:
I updated the hold again with, I think, a fixed version of 2N1W. There is also a "challenge" solution that is a fair bit harder than the normal one.

-Erik

I'm very glad that you made removing that door a challenge and not the norm. Took me a while to manoeuvre the mimic into the right position to block the rightmost Aumlich.

Also, would there be any reason why each time I update the hold, DROD forgets that I have completed the 2nd secret room? (and thus shows displays a 50% instead of 100%) It's fairly minor, but a bit weird.

Doom
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Yet another new solution for 1W: It's possible to kill the serpent in the left edge of the room by blocking it with the aumtlich and arrows. This seems a bit easier than the intented solution, and would be easy to fix by enlargening the gap between the arrows and the wall by one column (either by carving the wall or moving stuff to the east a little)

2N1W looks pretty good to me now.

Stefan
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File: DtGH The Entrance 2N1W Victory 2.demo (1.1 KB)
Downloaded 44 times.
License: Public Domain

Doom wrote:
Yet another new solution for 1W: It's possible to kill the serpent in the left edge of the room by blocking it with the aumtlich and arrows.

Yes, I hinted on that solution here.

2N1W looks pretty good to me now.

I think I now know what the intended solution is, but I can still solve it (easily) without needing to strike any orbs. Demo attached.

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[Last edited by Stefan at 04-16-2007 05:34 PM]

Jatopian
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Hey Erik, inquiring necromancers want to know: Will you be finishing this?

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ErikH2000
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I've put it on my to do list to upload the stupid thing.

-Erik

____________________________
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dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

CuriousShyRabbit
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I just played this through and enjoyed it very much. It looks like this hold has already been thoroughly critiqued and mostly debugged. (The unintended solution Doom found in 1W is easy to fix if you want to; the "unintended" solutions in 2N1W just make the room more interesting.) I didn't find any new 3.1-related issues.

ErikH2000 wrote:
I've put it on my to do list to upload the stupid thing.

How about now? Rabbit's top 5 reasons for submitting it right now (like, really, today, as soon as you get bored with reading the reasons):

* It's not stupid, it's fun! This hold features a variety of puzzles based on manipulating aumtlich, which at times requires some very fancy foot and sword work. The 10 puzzles in this hold nicely illustrate leading aumtlich around at sword-point, getting them to step on pressure plates, getting them to light fuses, and carefully stepping through a maze of aumtlich beams... without overdoing any one of these puzzle types.

* It's got a nice difficulty progression. Someone who doesn't know much about aumtlich could play this hold and learn a lot. The "Moshly Undanjrus" rooms give beginners plenty of chance to get their bearings, before moving on to the more serious puzzles. I thought the "Iffy" rooms (particularly 1N1W) were a little tougher than the "Danjrus" rooms. And the trick with the mimic in the extra-challenge option for 2N1W is very cool.

* It's got that special brand of Erik-humor that we are seeing less and less often, with the complete lack of SmS releases this past year. Your fans need their fix!

* It'd sail right through the HA process. It looks like at least 4 HA's have already played through the hold, and you've already addressed all their comments. You wouldn't have to do any extra work. It'd get the two YES votes for promotion very quickly.

* The release of this hold onto the Holds board would be well-separated from other user-made holds. It's been a couple of weeks since the most recent promotion, and there's nothing else waiting on the HA board right now. The hold would get proper attention without overshadowing someone else's work and without being overshadowed itself.

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[Last edited by CuriousShyRabbit at 12-04-2007 07:46 AM]