vittro
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I know it's a huge list but, please, rate and comment.

1) Roach King : Works like a queen, but it comes toward you and it can kill you like a normal roach.

2) Monster only field : Only monsters can walk on this field. It can toggled by a orb.

3) Beethro only field : Only beethro can walk on this field. It can toggled by a orb.

4) Npcs only field : Only npcs can walk on this field. It can toggled by a orb.

5) Special field : It can be toggled by a orb. When it's toggled for the first time, it becomes only beethro, second time only monsters, third time only beethro... Etc... You can select it's starting status by scripting.

6) Friendly guard : It's a guard that kills monsters in his 5x5 area and, when it kills a monster and moves, it returns to it's default position. If impossible, it will stay where it killed the monster.

7) Cannons : Can placed only on walls. They kill monsters in their 5x5 area, but they need a turn for reload. Can toggled by orbs.

8) Swap potion : You become Halph, and Beethro's AI it's now Halph's. You can move Halph with same commands of Beethro and Beethro can open you doors. The only different thing is that Halph will not be chased by monsters but Beethro will be. Walk over another potion to abort this effect.

9) Only Halph orbs : Orbs that only Halph can use.

10) Pillars : 1x1 walls that block also the sword.

11) Blast Potion : When Beethro walks on this, an explosion appear on him. Beethro will not die, but monsters around him will die.

12) Time bomb : It explodes after 15 turns. To activate it simply
put your sword on it.

13) Remote bomb : You can make it explode by pressing an orb.

14) Only Beethro orbs : Orbs that only Beethro can use. Slayer and Halph can't use them.

15) Toggleable Orbs : These orbs are deactivated / activated (selected by editor). You can toggle them by pressing another orb. They work as normal orbs when activated.

16) Halph, Beethro, Slayer only Toggleable Orbs : Well, I think you got it.

17) Keys : When you walk over a key you take it. You can keep only 3 keys at time. You can open a Wooden Door with keys, simply walking into it.

18) Wooden Door : Can be opened with Keys and toggled, opened and closed with orbs.

19) Custom image Pit and Obstacle : Works like a custom image but you can't walk over it. For the pit custom image wrathwings can walk on it.

20) Protection field : When Beethro is over it, monsters can reach it, but it will not die. The protection field will disappear after 8 turns of Beethro on it.

21) Teleport potion : When you walk over it you will be teleported on a teleportable field of your choice.

22) Teleportable field : Works like a normal field, but you can teleport over it with teleport potions.

23) Toggleable Pits : Works like a normal pit, but it can be toggled by a orb. When toggled it works like a normal obstacle.

24) Npc graphics : I think we need wall graphic, orb graphic and door graphic.

25) Npc scripting : When beethro touches this npc - When sword touches this npc.

I know it's a huge list but, please, rate and comment.

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zex20913
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vittro wrote:
I know it's a huge list but, please, rate and comment.

Huge indeed.

1) Roach King : Works like a queen, but it comes toward you and it can kill you like a normal roach.

I don't think there's too much puzzle potential here, aside from proper spawning time (which can already be done with queens) and horde management (where you can just put more roaches in to begin with.) I don't want a monster generator that also kills you. No real weakness, aside from its stupidity.

2) Monster only field : Only monsters can walk on this field. It can toggled by a orb.

3) Beethro only field : Only beethro can walk on this field. It can toggled by a orb.

4) Npcs only field : Only npcs can walk on this field. It can toggled by a orb.

5) Special field : It can be toggled by a orb. When it's toggled for the first time, it becomes only beethro, second time only monsters, third time only beethro... Etc... You can select it's starting status by scripting.

I don't like the idea of fields in general. It doesn't make sense why a person can step into a spot, but not a monster, or vice versa.

6) Friendly guard : It's a guard that kills monsters in his 5x5 area and, when it kills a monster and moves, it returns to it's default position. If impossible, it will stay where it killed the monster.

Does the 5x5 area move with him? I'm guessing this is also tough to do--no monsters attack other monsters directly (I don't expect adders will attempt to eat other monsters).

7) Cannons : Can placed only on walls. They kill monsters in their 5x5 area, but they need a turn for reload. Can toggled by orbs.

If these exist, they shouldn't differentiate between monsters and Beethro. They should just shoot at anything.

8) Swap potion : You become Halph, and Beethro's AI it's now Halph's. You can move Halph with same commands of Beethro and Beethro can open you doors. The only different thing is that Halph will not be chased by monsters but Beethro will be. Walk over another potion to abort this effect.

Just no.

9) Only Halph orbs : Orbs that only Halph can use.

Orbs are a public good. Anybody can use them. Why does Halph get specialized orbs? Yes, he's the retroactive source of light in all the Eighth, but the architects didn't know that when building the dungeon/creating the orb. Orbs are like doorbells. Anybody can ring them.

10) Pillars : 1x1 walls that block also the sword.

This has potential. Sword blockers have been asked for before, and generally met with good feelings.

11) Blast Potion : When Beethro walks on this, an explosion appear on him. Beethro will not die, but monsters around him will die.

I see no reason to implement this. Bomb, 1-long fuse, and a tunnel adjacent to the fuse will achieve the same result (as if the potion was on the spot where the tunnel was). It also feels too powerful/makes me think Beethro should die on it.

12) Time bomb : It explodes after 15 turns. To activate it simply
put your sword on it.

Maybe...or you could make it explode after N turns, and have the fuse start right next to the bomb. Oh wait, that's already in the game.

13) Remote bomb : You can make it explode by pressing an orb.

I prefer Fast Fuses for this concept.

14) Only Beethro orbs : Orbs that only Beethro can use. Slayer and Halph can't use them.

See comment 9

15) Toggleable Orbs : These orbs are deactivated / activated (selected by editor). You can toggle them by pressing another orb. They work as normal orbs when activated.

Ugh. I wouldn't want to play any rooms with these. Boring, legwork, no thinking.

16) Halph, Beethro, Slayer only Toggleable Orbs : Well, I think you got it.

See 9, 15.

17) Keys : When you walk over a key you take it. You can keep only 3 keys at time. You can open a Wooden Door with keys, simply walking into it.

18) Wooden Door : Can be opened with Keys and toggled, opened and closed with orbs.

No. Orbs and yellow doors are good enough. Plus, wood can't stop a really big sword.

19) Custom image Pit and Obstacle : Works like a custom image but you can't walk over it. For the pit custom image wrathwings can walk on it.

Uh...I think the obstacles and pits which are included in the game are sufficient.

20) Protection field : When Beethro is over it, monsters can reach it, but it will not die. The protection field will disappear after 8 turns of Beethro on it.

Um...no. Creates a host of problems with "what happens when Beethro stabs a monster on a protection field?"

21) Teleport potion : When you walk over it you will be teleported on a teleportable field of your choice.

22) Teleportable field : Works like a normal field, but you can teleport over it with teleport potions.

Makes little sense in-game. Also too powerful, and I feel it changes the gameplay a wee bit too much.

23) Toggleable Pits : Works like a normal pit, but it can be toggled by a orb. When toggled it works like a normal obstacle.

I see no use for this.

24) Npc graphics : I think we need wall graphic, orb graphic and door graphic.

I don't think we do. You can make a wall, orb, or door, and have an invisible NPC on top of it.

25) Npc scripting : When beethro touches this npc - When sword touches this npc.

I think we'll be able to do this with relative coordinates.

I know it's a huge list but, please, rate and comment.

A lot of these ideas don't seem too well thought out--just things you thought at one point would be neat. Interaction with other elements is key in DROD. Much of these don't "play well with others", be they too powerful, or of little use. I probably sound a bit negative towards most of your ideas, but I'd MUCH prefer 2 or 3 well-thought out ideas to a huge list of 25 "wouldn't it be neat if"s.

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Doom
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I see zex beat me to it, but here's another round of commentary because I wrote it already...

1: Not a terrible one, at least compared to most of the other ideas here... Not totally crushing this one. Although I'm not sure I can see enough new puzzles.
2, 3, 4, 5: These wouldn't add much that can't be accomplished already. Especially number 4 is completely pointless, since NPCs move often via scripted commands anyway (so you can decide where you want them to go without special floors).
6: Sounds too narrow to be useful. I'd just use mimics or possibly some simple scripted monster killer.
7: I don't really like the fact that you want everything orb toggleable. On the other hand, I don't think the element would be very useful either.
8: Beethro can *already* open Halph doors, and vice versa. And this would make no sense story-wise.
9: Why? I'd *much* rather put a trapdoor in front of the orb than implement a whole new feature that does *nothing* new.
10: Use bombs.
11: Use bombs. With an arrow pointing at them.
12: Use bombs. With fuses.
13: Use bombs. With mimic potions or fuses or decoys or something.
14: Build the room with regular orbs so that Halph and Slayer can't get to them. Use tunnels, for example.
15: Put a door in front of the orb and toggle it instead.
16: I don't get the point, but read number 15.
17: Pickable items have been discussed before. I'm not starting another round right now.
18: Read number 17.
19: Image walls have been discussed before. They might be useful for some things, actually.
20: I don't understand what you're trying to say.
21: Use tunnels. Stairs if you need a more specific ending location.
22: I don't understand what you're trying to say. Sounds useless without 21, though.
23: Sounds way too narrow. Pits are already walls to most objects. Put a door in the middle of some pits if you need more.
24: What would you do with these? Sounds like using NPCs purely for fake objects. Custom graphics for NPCs are in, though.
25: Use location and sword direction script commands.

Quality over quantity, people. This list doesn't leave a good taste.

starwed
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12) Time bomb : It explodes after 15 turns. To activate it simply put your sword on it.

Maybe...or you could make it explode after N turns, and have the fuse start right next to the bomb. Oh wait, that's already in the game.

If a fuse is right next to a bomb, it'll simply light the bomb next turn.

And depending on what N is, using fuses is a bit unpractical. Especially if you want more than one bomb in an area to have a different counter... Out of all the ideas suggested, this one makes the most sense to me. (Although i don't see the need to limit it to 15 turns; maybe increments of 5.)

1) Roach King : Works like a queen, but it comes toward you and it can kill you like a normal roach.

I'm not so sure a King should lay eggs... ^_^ My own pet idea for a roach king was that roaches would move towards it in preference to beethro, unless they were within smelling range of him. (But perhaps they'd avoid the squares right next to the king, or move towards him like wraithwings, or something of that nature, to give the king room to move in.)

zex20913
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starwed wrote:

12) Time bomb : It explodes after 15 turns. To activate it simply put your sword on it.

Maybe...or you could make it explode after N turns, and have the fuse start right next to the bomb. Oh wait, that's already in the game.

If a fuse is right next to a bomb, it'll simply light the bomb next turn.

And depending on what N is, using fuses is a bit unpractical. Especially if you want more than one bomb in an area to have a different counter... Out of all the ideas suggested, this one makes the most sense to me. (Although i don't see the need to limit it to 15 turns; maybe increments of 5.)

Yeah, the fuses are a bit impractical for N<2 or N>~500, but I prefer the choice of detonation time, as opposed to a fixed explodey time, especially a variable one with no way to tell when it'd blow, without a counter. And independent counters are bad ideas.

1) Roach King : Works like a queen, but it comes toward you and it can kill you like a normal roach.

I'm not so sure a King should lay eggs... ^_^ My own pet idea for a roach king was that roaches would move towards it in preference to beethro, unless they were within smelling range of him. (But perhaps they'd avoid the squares right next to the king, or move towards him like wraithwings, or something of that nature, to give the king room to move in.)

I actually like your idea. Like a decoy turned against you, or something. There hasn't been a monster yet that can direct a horde of roaches against Beethro. Might be neat, and I see some puzzle potential.

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silver
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zex20913 wrote:

vittro wrote:
17) Keys : When you walk over a key you take it. You can keep only 3 keys at time. You can open a Wooden Door with keys, simply walking into it.

18) Wooden Door : Can be opened with Keys and toggled, opened and closed with orbs.

No. Orbs and yellow doors are good enough. Plus, wood can't stop a Really Big Sword (tm).

fixed.

zex20913 wrote:

vittro wrote:
19) Custom image Pit and Obstacle : Works like a custom image but you can't walk over it. For the pit custom image wrathwings can walk on it.

Uh...I think the obstacles and pits which are included in the game are sufficient.

images for obstacles and pits are a Wonderful Idea. (they're just an old idea). of course, to be done right you'd have to lift the "1 image per room" restriction... but, anyway... since this is pure decoration and allows people to make prettier holds, it should be done. (though it also needs a "hide custom images" option in case people are crazy in the head with color schemes)

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Kwakstur
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1) Roach King : Works like a queen, but it comes toward you and it can kill you like a normal roach.

Despite the flaws mentioned by other people, I would find it interesting to have the horde master chase me. But it would be rather easy to kill, and not that much more useful than a normal roach.

2) Monster only field : Only monsters can walk on this field. It can toggled by a orb.

3) Beethro only field : Only beethro can walk on this field. It can toggled by a orb.

I suggested this before. I didn't get the best reaction. Although I still think it's a nice idea, since the current method (using force arrows to separate boundaries) usually doesn't work as planned.

4) Npcs only field : Only npcs can walk on this field. It can toggled by a orb.

I really wish NPCs could just walk on walls. The idea of an orb-toggled NPC-only area seems like an impractical solution to me.

5) Special field : It can be toggled by a orb. When it's toggled for the first time, it becomes only beethro, second time only monsters, third time only beethro... Etc... You can select it's starting status by scripting.

At first, I hated this idea. But then I thought of stuff like making Beethro fight monsters on a special field (that is being controlled by an orb-hitting NPC); you could make stuff like Beethro moveing twice before monsters, or maybe monsters move first. Interesting.
So, actually, I think I like the idea of this changing field.

6) Friendly guard : It's a guard that kills monsters in his 5x5 area and, when it kills a monster and moves, it returns to it's default position. If impossible, it will stay where it killed the monster.

I can see what you mean, but it seems more like something that should be scripted (somewhat easily with relative coords) instead of being a full-blown object in DROD.

7) Cannons : Can placed only on walls. They kill monsters in their 5x5 area, but they need a turn for reload. Can toggled by orbs.

No. Completely un-DROD-like. And it's just too specialized; it has few uses.

8) Swap potion : You become Halph, and Beethro's AI it's now Halph's. You can move Halph with same commands of Beethro and Beethro can open you doors. The only different thing is that Halph will not be chased by monsters but Beethro will be. Walk over another potion to abort this effect.

I like this idea. Having to leave Beethro motionless while hurriedly getting past a set of enemies that only enemy-resistant Halph can survive . . . trying to get Halph to open a path and find another Swap Potion before the enemies get the best of Beethro . . .
Sounds fun. And hard.

9) Only Halph orbs : Orbs that only Halph can use.

14) Only Beethro orbs : Orbs that only Beethro can use. Slayer and Halph can't use them.

I agree with the posters before me. Too specialized, not useful, and not explicable; how do you explain why a Really Big Sword (tm) can't hit an orb?

10) Pillars : 1x1 walls that block also the sword.

This isn't much different from bombs, although it would make it possible to change mimic sword directions relative to Beethro.
And it can't be detonated from a safe distance.
Despite how limited its uses are, it is in high demand, and I do see good reasons to have it.

11) Blast Potion : When Beethro walks on this, an explosion appear on him. Beethro will not die, but monsters around him will die.

Absolutely not.

12) Time bomb : It explodes after 15 turns. To activate it simply
put your sword on it.

I guess that's okay. But 15 turns is a bit much. And if you were able to change it in the editor, how would you? Would it be like rotating to change Obstacles?

13) Remote bomb : You can make it explode by pressing an orb.

I'm implementing an NPC-controlled type of this in the hold I'm making now. When Beethro steps on a trapdoor, the corresponding bomb is destroyed by having an NPC mimic appear.
But the obvious critical flaw: The NPC can't appear on top of an enemy, therefore limiting how these bombs are used.
I think it's a nice suggestion; it will have a lot of uses.

And it would help when we are stuck with fast fuses that have to cross eachother.

15) Toggleable Orbs : These orbs are deactivated / activated (selected by editor). You can toggle them by pressing another orb. They work as normal orbs when activated.

16) Halph, Beethro, Slayer only Toggleable Orbs : Well, I think you got it.

Not a big fan of this. It can be easily solved with having another door.

17) Keys : When you walk over a key you take it. You can keep only 3 keys at time. You can open a Wooden Door with keys, simply walking into it.

18) Wooden Door : Can be opened with Keys and toggled, opened and closed with orbs.

This can be implemented with orbs, if each key only works for a specific door.
If the keys and doors are universal, use trapdoors, orbs, and NPCs that trap you if you hit more orbs than you're allowed to hit.

19) Custom image Pit and Obstacle : Works like a custom image but you can't walk over it. For the pit custom image wrathwings can walk on it.

Good idea. If we have control over how everything else looks, why not the pits and obstacles?

20) Protection field : When Beethro is over it, monsters can reach it, but it will not die. The protection field will disappear after 8 turns of Beethro on it.

I suggested this when I suggested the exclusive fields. It was also shot down.
However, your suggestion of it disappearing after a while makes it much more versatile.

21) Teleport potion : When you walk over it you will be teleported on a teleportable field of your choice.

22) Teleportable field : Works like a normal field, but you can teleport over it with teleport potions.

Is this for the hold, or just the room? If it's for the hold/level, I think I would rather use staircases, but if it's for the room, then the possibilities to use this are endless!

23) Toggleable Pits : Works like a normal pit, but it can be toggled by a orb. When toggled it works like a normal obstacle.

My fingers are starting to hurt by now. Oh, well.
For toggleable pits . . . it's not that bad of a suggestion, but I think that it's the kind of thing that I would forget about and never use in a hold.

24) Npc graphics : I think we need wall graphic, orb graphic and door graphic.

Like with 19, I agree. We need custom walls and objects to match our custon flooring.
But there are around 70 different wall tiles, all depending on whether or not the surrounding tiles are walls. Perhaps there will be even more in 3.0. That's a lot to edit.
And don't forget shadow tiles.

25) Npc scripting : When beethro touches this npc - When sword touches this npc.

Good second suggestion; Even with relative coords, we would still have to have to painfully script a Label, Wait 1 Turn(s), and then an If...goto command for every single tile surrounding the NPC, as well as the direction Beethro's Really Big Sword should face for each tile.

Overall good list. I think you would have gotten about 25 total mod-ups if these suggestions were divided up over several threads.

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Kwakstur
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And sorry about the size of that post. I think the quotes are what pushed its size over the limit.

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Someone Else
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Kwakstur wrote:

I'm implementing an NPC-controlled type of this in the hold I'm making now. When Beethro steps on a trapdoor, the corresponding bomb is destroyed by having an NPC mimic appear.
But the obvious critical flaw: The NPC can't appear on top of an enemy, therefore limiting how these bombs are used.
I think it's a nice suggestion; it will have a lot of uses.

As for this, I did something similar one of my holds. It helps to have multiple guards. Also, you can put the guard in the best spot (if you just want one) like this:

vittro
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The Roach King should be only a timing-concept monster, that if you don't kill it in 30 turns it will SWAP in 9 roaches, much harder.

And I agree with you, the Cannon is a stupid idea.

For only beethro or halph orbs I think they'll be useful in a small room, where Halph it's near Beethro and Beethro shouldn't strike some orbs.

Yeah, the pillar can be a bomb, but in case of error, you wouldn't die, and a pillar it's much better graphic.

Also, for toggleable orbs, I know we can use another door, but it takes 5 more cells.

And the teleport potion it's only in the room.

And, for toggleable pits, I think a wrathwing based room or hold will use them.

I also thought of a picker for the graphic of a npc ( click on a wall, or a object or simply a cell, and the npc graphic will become it )



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Kwakstur
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What I ended up doing is placing them on crumbly walls. The bombs were placed near walls, so it didn't look too wierd.

But then I decided to put a bomb in the open and involve decoys . . . still stuck on that. Oh, well, it can't be entirely foolproof. Maybe I can make part of the puzzle be to prevent the place where the mimic appears from being covered?

Either way, that's a discussion that belongs in Architecture.

EDIT: Gah, the same-time post strikes again! This post was directed to Someone Else. Oh, wait, that's physically impossible. Yet true . . .

And to vittro: The graphics picker r0x0rz my s0x0rz (forgive me for using those words). Why didn't I think of that . . .

And would the roaches created by the King also split up after 30 turns into more roaches? It's like moving tarstuff!

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---

[Last edited by Kwakstur at 02-23-2007 10:03 PM]

vittro
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Kwakstur wrote:
And would the roaches created by the King also split up after 30 turns into more roaches? It's like moving tarstuff!

Nono... The KING will split up, creating 8 NORMAL roaches. So there will be a hole in the middle.

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UrAvgAzn
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Nice list. My comments.

1) In most room layouts, the king wouldn't have enough time to spawn because he's rushing at you and you're probably heading towards him.
2)Fields aren't really appealing to me. Read eytanz's post, I basically feel the same way.
3) Read #2.
4) Read #2.
5)Read #2.
6) This might be possible in the current 2.0 engine's scripting, and if not, in 3.0's. There have been some pretty impressive AI scripts made in the past.
7) I like this idea, but the whole 'can be toggled by orb' thing might get a bit complicated. Best if there's no orb.
8) Much, much, too confusing, architects could get really evil with this.
9) I dunno, I have conflicting ideas with this. Firstly, I would think its a good idea. But next, I see how this can only be used efficiently if Beethro and Halph are on the same piece of flooring (no pits or walls in between them). Well, that might not be clear enough.
10) Bombs.
11) Bombs + Mimics?
12) Bombs + Fuses.
13) Read #12.
14) Read #9 and replace 'Halph' with 'Slayer and Halph'.
15) ...? Yellow doors around Orb #1, and those doors toggled by Orb #2?
16) Errm.
17) Hmm. I like this idea! We should add an inventory to DROD. That'd be great.
18) Take out the part with the orbs. Its a wooden door, and would make this a little odd.
19) I like this idea.
20) Just a little complicated, lets just leave it at a Beethro Safe Zone.
21) Too complicated. Just use a series of tunnels.
22) I still don't like fields.
23) What would the difference be? You still can't walk on both.
24) I'm not exactly sure I understand this one.
25) I like this. Make scripting a lot more detailed.

Good list.

Keep posting,

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Jatopian
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2, 3, 4 are doable fairly easily with scripting. Niccus is the brilliant architect who figured out how to do it, but he might be saving the secret for the release of his hold, so I'll think before spoiling.

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