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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Holds : MetDROiD Echoes (Adventure)
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σ 2.15
Author Name:geomatrx
Submitted By:geomatrx
Hold Name:MetDROiD Echoes
Theme:Adventure
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Number of Levels:17
Number of Rooms:300
Number of Monsters:4053
Version:DROD: Journey to Rooted Hold
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Hold Karma:34 (+44 / -10)
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Rabscuttle
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Postmaster generaled.

Another fine MetDROiD hold. I love the way that there's a linear progression through, but it doesn't feel like it.
I have to agree with other people that the scarcity of checkpoints in the boss rooms was somewhat annoying - especially Pit III. Restricting the player to using the checkpoints once is not fun at all. That said, I am looking forward to replaying some of the 1k+move rooms.

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[Last edited by Rabscuttle at 12-19-2006 11:53 PM]
12-19-2006 at 11:51 PM
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geomatrx
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Glad you liked it Rabscuttle.
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12-20-2006 at 10:53 AM
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Sergenth
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I'm having trouble with Slugman Forest/Wretched Bog.
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12-20-2006 at 11:15 PM
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geomatrx
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12-20-2006 at 11:25 PM
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NoahT
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I noticed in Wretched Bog, 2S3E, that the portal stairs have a dark vortex image behind it instead of a light one. Not at all is this supposed to be criticism; I just thought I'd mention it.

-Noah

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[Last edited by NoahT at 04-03-2018 03:22 PM]
12-21-2006 at 01:28 AM
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Tahnan
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Stop me if you've heard this before, but man could the entrance to Pit II use some checkpoints.
12-21-2006 at 07:57 AM
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Rabscuttle
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Tar 'n' trapdoors? There's one in the middle of the room.
12-21-2006 at 09:18 AM
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Briareos
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Rabscuttle wrote:
Tar 'n' trapdoors? There's one in the middle of the room.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but usually "some" means "more than one"... ;)

np: Kaito - Your Brilliant Flowers (Hundred Million Light Years)

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12-21-2006 at 03:32 PM
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zex20913
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Then I shall correct you.

In mathematics, some means at least one.

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12-21-2006 at 05:10 PM
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Rabscuttle
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Briareos wrote:
Rabscuttle wrote:
Tar 'n' trapdoors? There's one in the middle of the room.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but usually "some" means "more than one"... ;)

np: Kaito - Your Brilliant Flowers (Hundred Million Light Years)

Yes, but then the comment should be "... needs some more checkpoints"
12-21-2006 at 10:13 PM
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Jatopian
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Well, I gave in and played, and now I'm stuck. I'd ask in Hints & Solutions, but this hold doesn't go well there.
I can't find the 3rd Temple key (got the one in the room, and the one to the SE by killing "the spiders" S), and I can't get back into the Temple Gardens room with all the tunnels & secrets & the clay floor. I'm unsure whether those issues are related.


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12-22-2006 at 01:10 AM
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eytanz
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You should probably be more specific. There are several temples in this hold, and more than one of them has temple keys.

Anyway, I'm assuming it's the first one you're talking about (evil chill wasteland), because otherwise you'd know that.

I'm pretty sure the third key is in
Click here to view the secret text
. I don't remember whether you need to do anything special (i.e. unlock an "item") before you can get it.

Don't worry about the Temple Gardens, you'll find another way around that room later. But seriously, you might want to use room coordinates in future hint requests.

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12-22-2006 at 01:46 AM
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Tahnan
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Rabscuttle wrote:
Briareos wrote:
Rabscuttle wrote:
Tar 'n' trapdoors? There's one in the middle of the room.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but usually "some" means "more than one"... ;)
Yes, but then the comment should be "... needs some more checkpoints"
Look, I'm a semanticist. The precise meaning of words is what I do for a living. So don't mess with the bull, fella, you'll get the horns.

On the other hand, I'm on vacation, so you're off the hook for now.
12-22-2006 at 08:32 PM
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schep
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Okay, my turn to post asking where to go now. I guess 'I'll just visit everywhere again' isn't always such a good fix.

I'm near the end, and all I'm obviously missing is:
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12-22-2006 at 09:05 PM
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TripleM
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I got to the exact same point you were, and had to ask about that third key in Hints and Solutions.
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12-22-2006 at 09:19 PM
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Rabscuttle
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Tahnan wrote:
Rabscuttle wrote:
Briareos wrote:
Rabscuttle wrote:
Tar 'n' trapdoors? There's one in the middle of the room.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but usually "some" means "more than one"... ;)
Yes, but then the comment should be "... needs some more checkpoints"
Look, I'm a semanticist. The precise meaning of words is what I do for a living. So don't mess with the bull, fella, you'll get the horns.

A unicorn doesn't have horns - can I mess with that? :P
12-23-2006 at 12:12 AM
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Jatopian
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eytanz wrote:
You should probably be more specific. There are several temples in this hold, and more than one of them has temple keys.

Anyway, I'm assuming it's the first one you're talking about (evil chill wasteland), because otherwise you'd know that.

I'm pretty sure the third key is in
Click here to view the secret text
. I don't remember whether you need to do anything special (i.e. unlock an "item") before you can get it.
I have that one. I can get to where the 3rd key is:
Click here to view the secret text
but I don't know how to reach it.

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12-23-2006 at 12:48 AM
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TripleM
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I'm not quite sure what you mean.
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12-23-2006 at 04:23 AM
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Briareos
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Rabscuttle wrote:
Tahnan wrote:
Look, I'm a semanticist. The precise meaning of words is what I do for a living. So don't mess with the bull, fella, you'll get the horns.
A unicorn doesn't have horns - can I mess with that? :P
Nah. You have to mess with the fact that a unicorn, despite it's name, doesn't have a single corn, either... :P

np: Pole - Back Home (Pole)

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12-23-2006 at 09:31 AM
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Tahnan
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Stopped in to actually rate the hold, what with me having mastered it and all. I give it a 10/10, with only mild reservations having to do with, e.g., a certain scarcity of checkpoints. The staircase-for-items system is brilliant, as is the non-linear nature of exploration--the plot itself may be somewhat linear, but it's neat to go back to the desert, and then the forest, and then the desert again as new things open up. And the whole dark/light mirroring? Brilliant.


And, since I've spent the day reading pragmatics, I'll go ahead and note: the use of the statement "That room could use some checkpoints" does, following Rabscuttle, suggest that the room currently does not have some checkpoints; and insofar as "some" is perhaps compatible with "one"(*), my statement does seem ill-used.

But why, then, did I use it? Perhaps because I was unaware of the context; but that seems unlikely, since the checkpoint is right there, uncovered, when you start. Instead, it's likely that my use of the sentence "That room could use some checkpoints" was intended to suggest that we are in a context in which the sentence can be used felicitously, i.e. a context in which the room has no checkpoints. How can we be in such a context, if the room does have a checkpoint? In this manner: if the room has no checkpoints from some perspective; for instance, "for all practical delving purposes, this room has no checkpoints". Compare the following conversation:

A: DROD is a worthless game!
B: Huh? What holds have you played?
A: I've only played "Bad Evil Restaurant".
B: Ah. Well, in that case, you should play a hold or two, and then see whether you still think it's worthless.

Clearly A has, in a literal sense, played a hold; but for B's purposes, i.e. getting a sense of what DROD is like, playing Bad Evil Restaurant is exactly the same as playing no hold at all.

Further issues will be addressed in LING 590. Auditors welcome.

(*)Footnote: "Some forum member is sane" is compatible with there being only one; "some forum members are sane" seems not to be. The "one (or more)" or "two (or more)" meanings apparently derive from the singular/plural marking on the noun, not from "some" itself.

[Last edited by Tahnan at 12-23-2006 05:34 PM]
12-23-2006 at 05:33 PM
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Jatopian
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TripleM wrote:
I'm not quite sure what you mean.
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Ah, well, then... I finally got to my DROD computer again, and: I got to the one in 2S1E from 2S, by hiding in an alcove and killing "the spiders". I can't even figure out how to get to 2S2E the intended way, much less unlock any statues or hit any orbs.

By the way, geomatrx, will that bug be fixed or do I need to restore?

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12-23-2006 at 06:06 PM
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eytanz
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What bug? I think everything you described so far has been the intended path.

Did you find the light key yet? If not, you might want to explore the level a bit further.

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[Last edited by eytanz at 12-23-2006 06:23 PM]
12-23-2006 at 06:21 PM
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igusarov
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Finally, I've mastered it.

The most important impression: This hold has a great variety of room completion tasks. Let's see: get a monster on the specific tile, get two monsters simultaneously on specific tiles, simultaneously kill monsters / drop trapdoors / set off the bombs, repeat the sequence, play the tune, find special item, develop a special ability upon training, get-safe-in-15-turns, unusual use of blue doors... And that combined with classical: kill all monsters, trapdoor puzzle, bomb puzzle, tar puzzle, orb-door puzzle, snake puzzle, trap-the-slayer, run-against-the-clock, defeat brained horde. That's way too much variety to get me excited through the entire hold.

When I start playing this hold, the impression was absolutely great. A lot of rooms were opening themselves for exploration as I progress, with hints that there will be much more rooms as soon as I unlock some statues. When some statue turned green, getting to it was a matter of two-three rooms. Medium difficulty battles, good story behind the gameplay, a bonus hold art picture... Also I applaud to the way the new paths are shown - I always know what a new key or a new item has unlocked. In brief, the hold is very player-friendly and offers great fun.

By the time I've explored about half the hold, the impression changed. The amount of new rooms decreased, statues get unlocked in distant parts of explored space. Getting to the next statue became difficult: first, remember which room it is in, then hit "restore" to see the hold map and decide how to get to that level and room, desperately trying to remember which teleport would get me where. And then run to that room. Running to that room is a story... The hold would be much better if each puzzle was accompanied by a shortcut path (or a tunnel) that would open once the player solved the puzzle. Considering the scripting quality, I think that adding such feature wouldn't be too difficult. And that would save players (me, at least) a lot of pointless repeating long sequences each time one reenter a room. And yes, I reentered the rooms a lot. Mostly because I was running around, revisiting all rooms several times in a search for an unexplored path or in a search for a path to the room I want to get to.

There was a moment when I get very disappointed that a very promising hold turned out to be prolix. By that time, I think, I could understand those ones who rated the hold negatively. Not because it's bad, but because it turned out less fun then could have been expected by the start.

Surprisingly, once the blue gates get opened, the hold become very interesting once again. And my impression changed back towards excitement. Once again I saw lots of rooms to explore and new types of puzzles. Some more statues get unlocked, thus providing fast access to teleports and shorter routes around the level. Travelling across the world become easier. Difficulty of puzzles increased, and I really enjoyed them. Especially the slayer and warmachine rooms.


Well... The bottom line(s):
1. Scripting is great!
2. The fact that the scripting is used to add a lot of new goals is even more great.
3. Quality of scripting is great too: no serious bugs found.
4. The necessity to replay solved puzzles is disappointing.
5. Use of green statues to mark unexplored paths is great.
6. No checkpoints in some rooms is sad. Given that each room has to be visited more then once, it's definitely not enough to have only one autosave on first enter.
7. The idea to unlock certain abilities only after training is great. Unfortunately, crossbow and catapult trainings doesn't quite fit the hold and story style.
8. Hold is great. Geomatrx, please don't take my criticism by heart.
12-23-2006 at 06:48 PM
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igusarov
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Jatopian, the intended way (IMHO) to get to 2S2E is to use dark portal in (guess?) Maguig's Desert 2S2E. To get there you need a "portable orb" item, which you obtain from Maguig's Desert 1S (trap-the-snakes arena).
12-23-2006 at 07:01 PM
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Tahnan
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igusarov wrote:
The most important impression: This hold has a great variety of room completion tasks. ... That's way too much variety to get me excited through the entire hold.

I disagree with the latter statement--or, rather, I can't disagree that it didn't get igusarov excited, but I myself liked the variety. Having it spread out didn't make it overwhelming, and the various tricks (drop all the trapdoors at once, e.g.) were used nicely sparingly; just enough to be fun, without being overwhelming.

7. The idea to unlock certain abilities only after training is great. Unfortunately, crossbow and catapult trainings doesn't quite fit the hold and story style.

I do agree that the "special training" rooms were...interesting in their scripting, but perhaps not entirely in the hold's style. (Actually, I never really quite understood the catapult.)
12-24-2006 at 01:18 AM
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igusarov
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Having read Tahnan's post I see now that a statement "X is way too much to be Y" does sound like negation of Y. Er... Sorry, this is not what I wanted to say. What I'm saying is (as confirmed by bottom line #2):
a) There's a variety;
b) There's a lot of variety;
c) It does get me excited.
Sorry, English is not my native language and it seems that I've used inappropriate word construction.
12-24-2006 at 12:57 PM
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Syntax
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igusarov wrote:
Having read Tahnan's post I see now that a statement "X is way too much to be Y" does sound like negation of Y. Er... Sorry, this is not what I wanted to say. What I'm saying is (as confirmed by bottom line #2):
a) There's a variety;
b) There's a lot of variety;
c) It does get me excited.
Sorry, English is not my native language and it seems that I've used inappropriate word construction.
I wouldn't worry much at all. Your English is better than most('s?). Tahnan's on a bit of a pedantic streak at the mo ;)

Hmmm... And not far behind me. Guess I should start playing again :)
12-24-2006 at 06:39 PM
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Tahnan
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Tahnan's always pedantic; it's just coming to the surface a little more in recent days.

In this case: yes, the English construction "too X to Y" means Y can't happen--"I'm too tired to play" means I can't play, because I'm so tired. But your English is good enough that I had no idea it wasn't your native language, so, hey, glad to know you agree that the variety was a good thing!
12-25-2006 at 01:26 PM
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Syntax
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This sentence is prefect.
12-25-2006 at 07:46 PM
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Jason
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Offtopic: Random Fact: This topic has been offtopic for 24 posts (including this offtopic random fact post talking about offtopic posts). :P

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12-25-2006 at 07:51 PM
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