Dragon Fogel
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This has come up incidentally before, and the impression I got was there were no strong feelings about it either way. So I'm just bringing it up on its own so we can settle it directly.

Some previous threads where it's come up:
http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=38370
http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=40958

If you push a puff into a seep, the seep doesn't die.

Proposed change: puffs still don't target seep, but if a puff is pushed into a seep, the seep dies. (As does the puff, but that already happens.)

I had a look at the potential impact some time ago and concluded it would be minor - mostly rooms where it wasn't possible to get the puffs to the seep in the first place, or it was only possible at a point where killing the seep was trivial anyways. I could go into more detail on this, since that was some time ago; I don't think any new rooms came out since then which would be impacted.

Personally I don't have strong feelings on this, but I think puffs killing seep has more puzzle potential so I have a slight preference for making the change.

That said, one interesting thing that can be done under current rules: if you push a seep out of a wall, and something else pushes it into another wall before the seep's turn, the seep survives. It is possible to push the seep into a puff during this time, killing the puff and creating ice if applicable, in which case the seep still survives.

Anyways, just bringing this up for discussion.

hyperme
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Giving this a poke to get a solid answer rather than an aside answer.

My thoughts are that seep being immune to puffs is fine. It's a little odd, but seep have a lot of weird qualities so it's not that bad.

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navithmastero
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I've got a room that uses this interaction:



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Dragon Fogel
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For whatever it's worth, that room would still be solvable if this were changed - I checked my demo and it pushes the seep into the puff at one point, but does not require the seep to survive the push.

(Room is Ouroborous, Oasis 2S1E if anyone else wants to look.)

mauvebutterfly
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Do puffs kill anything else that they aren't attracted to? I feel like puffs killing seep would feel more inconsistent.

In practical terms, does it even matter if puffs kill seep or not? If the two collide it means that the seep is in open space, at which point the seep dies anyway, so the only situation where this would even make a difference would be when a seep is being multipushed through a puff.

Actually, a bigger concern would be that if puffs kill seep then pushing a puff onto a wall tile should kill the seep on that tile, which is not the current behaviour. I don't know how many rooms there are with both puffs and seep, and whether this would potentially break any of them, but it's another reason not to change the existing behaviour.

At this point, I think the safest and best option is the default: don't change the behaviour of existing elements.

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disoriented
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Puffs kill tarstuff mothers but aren't attracted to them.

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Dragon Fogel
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The main intent of the proposed change is to make seep die in walls if puffs are pushed into them.

The last time I checked, the only published rooms with both puffs and seep would not be affected; the Ouroborous room above theoretically could be, but the current behavior is not essential to the room (even if it's intended to be).

In terms of lore, there's really nothing pointing either way. But my personal opinion is that one, most things colliding with puffs die and outside of this one, the only exceptions are made of rock and metal. If a new monster were introduced, I would expect it to be vulnerable to puffs unless it were clearly similar to a golem or construct (or gentryii, I suppose). Seep are not, so I think it's more intuitive if seep die to puffs.
I also think this would be more interesting as a puzzle tool than the current behavior.
This is all a pretty weak preference, but that's basically my thinking on it.

navithmastero
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Dragon Fogel wrote:
The main intent of the proposed change is to make seep die in walls if puffs are pushed into them.

The last time I checked, the only published rooms with both puffs and seep would not be affected; the Ouroborous room above theoretically could be, but the current behavior is not essential to the room (even if it's intended to be).

In terms of lore, there's really nothing pointing either way. But my personal opinion is that one, most things colliding with puffs die and outside of this one, the only exceptions are made of rock and metal. If a new monster were introduced, I would expect it to be vulnerable to puffs unless it were clearly similar to a golem or construct (or gentryii, I suppose). Seep are not, so I think it's more intuitive if seep die to puffs.
I also think this would be more interesting as a puzzle tool than the current behavior.
This is all a pretty weak preference, but that's basically my thinking on it.

Honestly, I couldn't quite remember the interaction for that room - but knew that there was a seep and puff and I definitely have made a room which needs that interaction - though looking now I think it's one that is not published anywhere.

I can sort of see the argument of seep not dying to puffs since they are also sort of gaseous, but like DF I don't really have a strong feeling either way.

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hyperme
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Had a quick look at the code, and this seems to be somewhat intentional - the default is that monsters die to puffs, and need to be specifically added as an exception. Seep are in the list of stuff that are puff-proof.

This pushes me slightly towards the "do nothing" direction, especially since people don't feel that strongly about this specific interaction.

EDIT: I made a PR to change it and linked this thread. Let's see how Mike feels about it.

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[Last edited by hyperme at 03-15-2025 12:48 PM]

mrimer
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I have no concerns with changing the behavior if players feel it's weird and it won't materially impact published rooms.

Thanks for the PR!

PR

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[Last edited by mrimer at 03-15-2025 03:51 PM]