azb
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How are you getting that? I tested the room again just now in the most recent version on my computer, and I can solve and exit it easily and Halph is never blocked.

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bbb
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File: HLH_L12_2S1E.png (902.9 KB)
Downloaded 35 times.
License: Other

This is what the room looks like by me.

azb
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Silly me! I think I forgot to update the hold with the trapdoor removed on that particular spot, and Halph should be not blocked so easily afterward.

Is there any other problems you can think of/notice, like bugs like that, or just the way things look are off or strange?

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bbb
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Here are some comments from that version until the impossible room.

L6: 1S1E: The challenge permanently fails if you wait, even if you reenter the room. The level 4 challenges are also broken in the same way.
L11: 1N1E: Challenge: Kill the northern queens, before going to the southern section, and don't use the tunnels.
L12: 1E: Turning the character into a slayer on (8,5) allows killing him immediately. Use (8,6) (or further south).
L12: 1S: Is it intentional that a second slayer appears after clearing the room?

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[Last edited by bbb at 03-27-2024 04:43 AM]

azb
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These are all great comments! I will definitely revise the problems as appropriate.

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azb
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Most of them are oversights, like the level 12 stuff at the end, but the level 6 and 4 challenges are intended to work the way they are - the scroll explaining the challenge beforehand gives plenty of warning about the challenge being intended to fail the way they do.

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bbb
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The problem isn't that they fail. The problem is that they stay failed even if you leave the room.

The general rule is that if you exit and reenter an unsolved room, the room should revert to its initial state unless you have a VERY good reason not to. (Story flavor speech can be an exception to this.)

In the context of these challenges, the only way it might be appropriate to permanently fail the challenge would be in a case where you switch entrances based on the fail. This does not apply with these challenges.

azb
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That is a very good point. I will fix it now that you made clear what the actual problem is.

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azb
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Does anyone have anything else that they think I need to fix?

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bbb
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All comments referring to one version back (pre L4 and L6 challenge fixes).
Solved everything, except for one challenge in L25 and one in L84, and Dreamlands 1N1W.

L6: 1S1E: The challenge permanently fails if you wait, even if you reenter the room. (Should be fixed in current version.)
L11: 1N1E: Challenge: Kill the northern queens, before going to the southern section, and don't use the tunnels.
L12: 1E: Turning the character into a slayer on (8,5) allows killing him immediately. Use (8,6) (or further south).
L12: 1E: Challenge: Trap the slayer behind a dropped trapdoor.
L12: 1S: Is it intentional that a second slayer appears after clearing the room?
L19: Entrance: Like in L12: 1E, the script allows the slayer to be killed immediately.
L19: Entrance: When returning towards the exit, there are two slayers.
[L25: 1E: Skipped challenge.]
L26: Entrance: Challenge: Don't drink potion.
L28: Full level: Challenge: Don't drink any invisibility potions in level (except for the exit room).
L29: 1E: Kill all serpents before killing any golems.
L29: Full level: Challenge: Don't trap trapdoors in the level at all.
L29: Have separate challenges for 2E and 3E (unless you have a full level challenge).
L30: 1E: How is the non-challenge method easier?
L32: 1E: Skipping levels has been out of fashion for many years.
L34: 2E: Challenge: Don't close door at all.
L35: 1W: Halph isn't needed...
L37: 1S1E: Backtracking issue. Solving and unsolving and going south.
L37: 1S1E: Add green door passage from north to south.
L37: General: Tar over walls is out of fashion. (Might as well add vision tokens.)
L39: 1S3W: s/Beethro a tar baby/Beethro or a tar baby/
L40: 1S1E: It would be better if the challenge triggered when Beethro is about to exit the room, rather than requiring reentry.
L48: Entrance: The room can be left without clearing it and then cleared from the east. (A green door still allow leaving the room uncleared.) Challenge: Ignore Halph (from normal entrance).
L51: Entrance: Alternate challenge: Kill goblin last (also after the eye), and don't let goblin onto the arrows. (This shouldn't be too difficult to script.)
L52: 1S1W: Challenge: Kill a goblin last.
L58: 1S1W: Challenge: Use only two decoys.
L59: Entrance: Challenge: Use only two decoys.
L59: 1E: Challenge: Use only two decoys.
L60: 1W: Challenge: Use two decoys, and don't drop trapdoors (and don't use Halph). Also, the ability to both not use a mimic and not clear the mud (and the green doors) create a backtracking problem.
L60: 1S1W: Challenge: Use two decoys, and don't use Halph. Backtracking problem for same reason.
L63: 1S: The arrows are especially problematic, since the path to the secret is from the entrance.
L63: 1S+1E: The non-secret one seemed harder, since the long rattlesnake could more easily trap itself.
L64: General: Halph wasn't that helpful, or really part of the puzzles.
L69: 1N1E: Challenge: Kill the serpent before releasing the goblin.
L72: 1E: The difficult part of the room is the beginning.
L73: Probably too hard for a completely new mechanic.
L84: 1S: No idea how to even approach the challenge.
L87: Entrance: Challenge: Don't close the door in front of the slayer.
L87: 1E: Either force clearing before leaving the room, or force returning from second entrance for final completion.
L87: 1N: It is probably preferable to allow clearing on first pass. (Also 1E.) Makes saving important demos easier.
L88: General: Preferably allow clearing the room on the main pass. (Maybe use beacons in 1W, since it should be cleared twice.)
L89: The target tiles aren't red by me.

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[Last edited by bbb at 04-10-2024 04:49 AM]

azb
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Thank you for everything!

I don't believe you have anything else to add after that about challenges and bugs?

Maybe, however, do you have comments on the voice acting and think it needs fixing?

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azb
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L6 thru 12 have already been addressed.

L6 1S1E, though annoying, is intentional due to the nature of the challenge, every other issue is fixed though.

L19 should be fixed, all issues

L26 challenge I tried to add, but it doesn't seem to work.
Can anyone explain why?

L28 I already have all the challenges exactly as I intended, as some rooms are basically impossible with the potion or too tedious otherwise.

Same deal with L29, the challenges only work for certain rooms and not the whole level

L30 1E challenge removed, as it was indeed easier

L32 level skip is intentional, because JtRH did the same thing

L34 2E challenge added and it works.

L35 1W: Halph is there for story purposes

L37: vision tokens added, and green doors added.

L39 typo fixed

L40: I tried but I can't get it to work with current DROD scripting.
Any ideas on the correct script?

L48 Entrance fixed and challenge added. Now it should be harder to do it from the east.

L51 Entrance: need help scripting it

L52 challenge: There doesn't seem to be a way to enforce killing a certain monster last AFAIK, is it perhaps done using "Wait while entity" in a specific order with if loops?

L58 thru 60 are hard enough without the challenge to me.

L63 fixed.

L64: Halph is there for story purposes.

L68: Unfortunately you cannot wait while entity type Serpent, even though you can for other monsters. Any help scripting this one?

L72 1E is intentional, for any puzzle the end doesn't always have to be the hardest

L73 all rooms toned down.

L84 1S challenge removed.

L87 Entrance doesn't have a door in front of the Slayer on my end.

L87 and L88 are intentionally designed the way they are, because even though it doesn't work well with demos and optimizers, it's exactly the same way JtRH level 22 was.

L89 I forgot to update the scroll to go with the style change. Fixed now.

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[Last edited by azb at 04-11-2024 05:02 PM : Fix typos]

azb
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Does anyone have any additional changes they think need to be made, maybe about levels 90 thru 100, before I officially submit this hold?

No one has made any comments in particular about the voice acting as far as I can tell - does it sound spot on or does it need fixing or editing in any way, in addition to the levels and rooms?

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azb
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I fixed L6 1S1E challenge failing permanently; it should reset correctly when you fail and come back now, and still end properly if you do complete it.

I think levels 90 thru 100 and the voice acting should be kept as is, unless anyone has any thing they think needs correcting.

I already have my other hold that was in the HA queue, "A Test of Intelligence", submitted officially to the RPG Holds board, but when I try to submit this hold nothing happens, even though I listened to all the feedback I got and made the hold as high-quality as possible gameplay wise.

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Nuntar
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Level 11 1N1E challenge does not trigger. The entire script after "Loop" is enclosed in "If... Wait while entity Monster at (6,1)-(22,3)", which returns false if there is a monster. Two roach queens start within this rectangle, so on turn 0 the script jumps to the very end and never loops.

Level 25 1E challenge is still terrible and should be removed. If you want to defend keeping this in, show some evidence that you have tested it yourself.

Since you asked... the Level 26 Entrance challenge isn't working because the character at (5,1) asks: is a variable equal to 0? If yes, is the room clear? If no, go to the label "loop" at the start of the script. All this happens immediately, so the script would loop endlessly and prevent anything else executing, if it weren't that DROD has a failsafe that stops scripts executing if it detects an infinite loop. So the script immediately stops running and "Challenge completed" cannot be reached.

The fix is to put Wait 0 before "Go to loop". However, the scripts in this room contain another error: they all have End commands, so if the player fails the challenge and leaves the room, it won't work on a return visit.

Incidentally, this means you submitted the hold to HA despite knowing there was an unobtainable challenge.

I'd like to help with this hold, because (like all your holds) there are some genuinely good rooms and challenges in here, but it's hard to get past this overwhelming feeling that you don't want to be helped.

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azb
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Okay, these are all great notices - I will remove my hold from the HA queue.

Your feeling that I don't want to be helped stems from the idea that you complain about similar rooms and the combat nature of the holds which is intended, but I do improve if you find actual bugs in the challenges like you are doing now, or other things like improper checkpoint placement I listen to - just not complaints about "too much combat rooms that are similar to each other", because it's intended to be combat themed.

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azb
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Also, I literally waited for months and months for anyone, you included, to post about any problems you've discovered - why wait until after I submitted to HA, unless your life was busy?

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navithmastero
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azb wrote:
Okay, these are all great notices - I will remove my hold from the HA queue.

Your feeling that I don't want to be helped stems from the idea that you complain about similar rooms and the combat nature of the holds which is intended, but I do improve if you find actual bugs in the challenges like you are doing now, or other things like improper checkpoint placement I listen to - just not complaints about "too much combat rooms that are similar to each other", because it's intended to be combat themed.

Complaining that rooms are samey (and in some cases near identical) is a perfectly valid criticism. You may not like it, but if you want people to test your hold then you have to respect the feedback they give you. I'd imagine that this is one of the reasons you're having trouble getting testing. People don't want to play the same room over and over again, especially when these holds are so so long, and then you don't want to hear it when people don't like it.

I understand that you want people to test your hold, but please remember that this is a small community and no-one is obliged to test anything. People will be even less inclined to do so if they don't feel that you yourself have bothered to test it, and you do things like submit the hold to the HAs knowing that it breaks the rules.

I don't want this to feel like a personal attack by the way, it's great that people are still putting the effort in to build holds for the community to play - it's just that this probably isn't the best way to go about it.

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[Last edited by navithmastero at 07-24-2024 06:23 PM]

mauvebutterfly
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Regarding the criticism that "too much combat rooms that are similar to each other" the problem isn't that there are a lot of combat rooms, the problem is that the combat rooms are literally copy-pasted and the changes made to the underlying template don't meaningfully change the room. Fighting the same enemies in the same room shape is going to feel the same, even if you add 2 more wubbas or 4 more roach queens or add a room-entrance slayer. It's the same room with a negligible increase in difficulty.

Spending the time to make new room/obstacle shapes instead of copying the same room layout would do a lot to prevent the "too similar to each other" criticisms.

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azb
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Okay, that makes more sense.

And I don't take the criticism personally/to heart, I just evaluate what I think is appropriate or not to my intended style - I always emphasize I focus on simple combat and fighting first and foremost and actual lynchpins that are hard hard like The Second Sky or the later rooms in Journey to Rooted Hold isn't my goal, but it makes sense if the changes are only very small then it's too similar to count as a new room.

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Nuntar
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Right. I have never complained about "the combat nature of the holds", and I don't really appreciate words being put into my mouth that are so completely opposed to what I believe. Yes, at one point (not for this hold specifically) I think I did suggest looking at some more puzzly holds to get ideas to help the rooms have a bit more variety, but that does not mean I dislike combat rooms on principle. Some of the combat rooms in this hold are really great -- Level 6 1S1E is a favourite, but I could make a longer list of rooms I enjoyed if that would be helpful.

(On a tangentially related note, "puzzly" or "linchpin-focused" does not mean TSS-level hard. There are some great holds with easier linchpin-focused levels, like GatEB, Beethro and the Cake, or Pickle Cellar.)

I'm sorry I didn't get round to giving this another look sooner. I am always busy. For one thing, EP is a very demanding project. For another, you wanted me to playtest another five holds that are each larger than this one....

But hey, if you would like me to give this one another try, and if it's okay that it will take a while, I can do that. I'll try to be more specific in my feedback, now that I know you prefer it that way. I do find this a bit difficult, because I don't want it to seem like I'm trying to take charge or give orders, and I'm worried about causing situations like telling you to cut a room and someone else saying they enjoyed that room -- or what happened with your RPG hold where I suggested putting in warp rooms and Kieran said that made the hold worse. I generally find it easier to say things like "I didn't enjoy this room" and leave it to the architect to decide what changes to make. But I'll try to find a way that works for both of us.

Starting with Levels 1 to 12, since I replayed them last night and have them fresh in my mind:



Let me know if this style of feedback is okay. I'm sorry if I was a bit rude yesterday, but I do genuinely want to help improve this hold so we can have a good mostly combat-focused hold on the Holds board eventually.

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azb
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These are all awesome suggestions, that are helpful in pointing out actual flaws in my work, and it is greatly appreciated - this is the kind of feedback that is most helpful because otherwise I don't actually understand what to improve in particular.

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azb
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The level 10 thing I can't do myself, so I won't add it, and the level 12 thing is intended, everything else is fixed 100% though with no hassle.

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