Pinnacle
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1137
Registered: 06-10-2004
IP: Logged

It's not directionless at all, it's a very tightly-structured hold. The plan was laid out in September of 2014, and everything currently in the hold is according to that plan. Nothing about the plan has changed, the hold is just closer to completion and we're actively focusing on making the later levels.

____________________________
Once (adv.): Enough.
Twice (adv.): Once too often.
~Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

Someone Else
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2372
Registered: 06-14-2005
IP: Logged

I think it's a Hrung. You know, like the one that decided to collapse on Betelgeuse 5.

Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1645
Registered: 12-12-2004
IP: Logged

To clarify just what kind of puzzles we're looking for in the endgame: this project has evolved quite a bit beyond being a simple introductory hold.

Nothing about the plan has changed

this project has evolved

Nothing... has changed

...
Okay!

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5106
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

To put it simply: we are drawing a line between the planning we did from September onwards, when we moved the project to a beta board and started building, and the preceding discussion of what the project's aims should be.

It's true that in the initial discussion, the idea was floated of an extended tutorial hold, with verbal explanations of every element, and puzzles being optional. But this idea was rejected and has never been part of the plan: that is what Pinnacle is trying to make clear. (And no, "Entry Point" is not going to be the actual hold title. We just haven't thought of a good title yet. Thinking of titles is hard.)

The plan has changed in certain respects as we've gone along: we've moved elements to different tiers, given some elements their own level and bundled others together. We were originally going to have only two interludes; then I said "we should cover player roles"; then the evolution of our plot ideas necessitated still further interludes. But the fundamentals have not changed.

Our goals are to make a hold that's accessible to beginners, begins at a very low difficulty level and ramps up gradually, introduces elements one at a time so new players are not overwhelmed with too many game rules at the beginning, has a good variety of puzzles with each element to thoroughly show its behaviour and interactions, and has harder content as secret rooms and bonus levels so that players get a taste of what tougher DROD puzzles are like and then the feeling of satisfaction when they go back and defeat a puzzle that had earlier stumped them. This means that the hold should be fun to play regardless of skill level (experienced players will not be stimulated by the first couple of levels, but they can get through them in a few minutes).

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50th Skywatcher

bbb
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 218
Registered: 10-07-2013
IP: Logged

Nuntar wrote:
Now that we've got this far, we are heading towards the endgame stages of the hold, and it would be awesome if some more architects who are expert in building high-tier puzzles would join the team! Just contact me if you're interested.

I probably don't qualify as an expert, but I would be interested in writing (or contributing puzzles to) a level about the order of activating orbs when multiple orbs are hit in one turn.

nolarboot
Level: Goblin

Rank Points: 21
Registered: 11-04-2007
IP: Logged

I'm not an expert by any stretch, but I can get most 6-brain rooms finished if you give me enough time.
That said, I don't currently have CaravelNet (that's contingent on next month's check), but when it comes in I'd love to be a playtester (or Aesthetic Adjuster). Please count me in!

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5106
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Sure, just let me know when you have CNet and I'll sign you up.

bbb: Similarly, it would be preferable if you had CNet so I could sign you up to the beta board, so you have access to the topics about hold structure, order of introducing elements etc. That said, if you want to design a level for us, I'm happy for you to do so and we'll try to fit it in.

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50th Skywatcher

Pinnacle
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1137
Registered: 06-10-2004
IP: Logged

bbb wrote:
I probably don't qualify as an expert, but I would be interested in writing (or contributing puzzles to) a level about the order of activating orbs when multiple orbs are hit in one turn.

That could work as a wing within one of the existing levels (Red Rock Hermitage), it seems kind of narrow to dedicate an entire level to it.

____________________________
Once (adv.): Enough.
Twice (adv.): Once too often.
~Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

bbb
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 218
Registered: 10-07-2013
IP: Logged

Nuntar wrote:
Sure, just let me know when you have CNet and I'll sign you up.

bbb: Similarly, it would be preferable if you had CNet so I could sign you up to the beta board, so you have access to the topics about hold structure, order of introducing elements etc. That said, if you want to design a level for us, I'm happy for you to do so and we'll try to fit it in.

Pinnacle wrote:

bbb wrote:
I probably don't qualify as an expert, but I would be interested in writing (or contributing puzzles to) a level about the order of activating orbs when multiple orbs are hit in one turn.

That could work as a wing within one of the existing levels (Red Rock Hermitage), it seems kind of narrow to dedicate an entire level to it.

I don't have have CNet. At this point, all I would need is a little context, about where such a level (or wing) could fit within the hold. If I actually manage to provide rooms of sufficient quality to actually be included, full access to the beta board might be necessary, but such a discussion is a little premature.

Can the relevant level (Red Rock Hermitage) or context within the hold be made available publicly or privately?

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5106
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

RRH is a fairly large level, so my inclination is to make this a spin-off bonus level rather than adding a wing to it. In that case you wouldn't need to worry about connecting it to RRH; I'd handle that. What do you need to know is that RRH is a Tier 5 level, so you can only use elements that appear in the first four tiers.

Here is a reduced list of available elements (for clarity, I've shortened the full list by removing obvious elements, like tar baby appearing in the same level as tar):


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50th Skywatcher

nolarboot
Level: Goblin

Rank Points: 21
Registered: 11-04-2007
IP: Logged

Nuntar wrote:
Sure, just let me know when you have CNet and I'll sign you up.

Suddenly, things happened! I have a subscription again, so whenever you feel like adding me on, I'm game. Thanks for the consideration!

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5106
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Start of a new year, a good time for another progress report

Godot23 wrote:
Hmm... So one tier is 180 rooms. 8 planned tiers at a 180 rooms a piece... Would come out to arou...

8 times 180 is 1440. And we have now exceeded that number. To be precise, the project now contains 93 levels and 1468 rooms.

As always, a more accurate metric is the number of completed tiers. We are currently about halfway done with Tier 7, the last tier of required content before the hold can be conquered. Lucky Luc is already working on the very last level. In accordance with DROD tradition, this is preceded by a penultimate level that is the peak of the difficulty curve, and we've decided to make this a team effort, dividing it into four-room blocks with a different architect for each.

But this isn't the end. When Tier 7 is complete, all game elements will have been introduced, and our original goal accomplished. However, we feel that for a project of this size and ambition, it would only be appropriate to include a substantial amount of bonus content, to give players a reward for making it to the end and an opportunity to challenge themselves beyond the limit of the difficulty ceiling of required content. So, we're going to continue working into the new year. I don't know how much longer it will take us to finish. But there is a definite cut-off point; we want to get this wrapped up and released, after all.

I hope and fully expect we can get this finished, tested and ready for release at some point in 2016. Wish us luck!

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50th Skywatcher

slimm tom
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1252
Registered: 10-14-2006
IP: Logged

Another year has passed, and undoubtedly this hold has grown in size even more. How is it going? Would love to get into this sometime soon!

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5106
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

We've been going through a slow patch, unfortunately, but since it's the new year, I've spoken to those team members who are still around and we're going to make a determined push to get this finished and released this year. (As always, anyone who'd like to help us, provided you have CNet and some amount of architectural experience, is very welcome.)

Anyhow, progress report for 2016. We now have twelve more levels, bringing the total over 100, and 1594 rooms. But the main thing is that I've gone over testing feedback for Tiers 0, 1 and 2 and made appropriate changes in response, so those tiers are now completely finished. I'm working on Tier 3 now and expect to have it finished by the end of the month, after which my target is one tier per month. I want to emphasise that the reason we didn't meet my hope of getting the hold finished last year was that we slowed down with building and editing the main content, not that we have a basically finished main hold and we're keeping it back just to add layers of bonus content. From here, getting the main hold finished will take some time, so it's likely we'll have a decent amount of bonus content anyway by the time it's ready. If that's less bonus content than we would have ideally liked to have, that's fine, getting the hold finished and released is the important thing, and we are trying to reach that goal as soon as possible.

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50th Skywatcher

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5106
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

So it's (again) a long time since I posted an update. And unfortunately, as you will have noticed, this project hasn't appeared on the Holds board yet. Progress sped up for a while last summer, but then slowed down again, for a number of reasons -- I've started a new job, and several team members have also had other commitments come up. However, it's still in active development and getting ever closer to being finished

Since the last update, we've added a further eighteen levels, bringing the total number of rooms to 1899. Earlier today, I drew up a list of the remaining levels, and there are only five that are essential, four that would be very nice to have, and a few that we would like to include but are less important. All of the essential levels are in progress, including a level Dragon Fogel is working on that will be the climax of the hold's bonus content.

We've decided on 13 September this year, the project's four-year anniversary, as the date we're aiming to submit this to the HAs. That's not set in stone; it depends on having the "essential" levels and certain aspects of the hold structure complete, as well as a good amount of testing and feedback on the newest levels. Still, at the moment, it seems reasonable to expect that we can make that deadline.

We would greatly appreciate it if any of you who have CNet, some architectural experience and some time to spare would consider joining the team to help us in making the final push to completion

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50th Skywatcher

ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2796
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Nuntar,

I just read through the history of this project for the first time.

Wow. I'm really stunned at the size and scope of it. All the work. Years going by.

I feel like you've recreated the Empire's bureaucracy and there is a danger of Mothingness creeping in. Then people will continue making the hold ever-larger until it expands out of control to envelope and consume the other holds. From there the tunnels will connect into other games, and things that aren't games at all, like bus schedules and vending machines. All the while, people will continue contributing new levels, the hold will remain forever unreleased, forever growing--an unborn colossus!

In all seriousness, I humbly suggest getting ruthless about releasing it. What is the least you would need to do to complete a hold that you're proud of? We went through this pain on *every* DROD release. Every single one.

Respect and best wishes.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5106
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Hi Erik,

Thank you for your kind words. I feel really honoured to be noticed by the founder of DROD

I can understand that it may look that way from the outside, but the project's growth is not at all out of control. It's due to three main factors. Firstly, there is a huge number of elements in the game. We decided right from the outset that (if possible) we wanted a hold that introduced every element, not just with scrolls saying what it does, but with a proper puzzle level like those in the main games, giving the player the chance to see how the element works (and combines with others) in genuine puzzles. In other words, the hold should do roughly the same job as JtRH, TCB and TSS combined, which requires it to be comparable in length.

Secondly (and this is the main part we didn't anticipate in advance), about halfway through, the average size of levels being contributed to the project went up substantially. That was partly due to new architects joining the project, and partly because late-game elements have a greater number of previously introduced elements they can combine with. Also, this was the stage when it really became clear the hold was going to go the full distance, so we were having a lot of fun making devious puzzles with each element

And finally, because of the long development time and large number of contributors, we ended up with a lot of ideas for secret and bonus levels we could fit in -- we remembered from TSS's release how well these had been received. This was always on the understanding that completing the main structure was the most important thing, and bonus level were only if we had time. However, towards the end when most or all of the remaining main-structure levels were claimed, it was good that we had bonus levels available for other architects to work on so that we could keep everyone involved and motivated.

Anyway, to answer your question. The least we'd have to have to consider this a finished hold would be:
* Complete the five "essential" levels I mentioned in my last post. These are three element levels, one of the tier exams, and the final boss level.
* Hold-structural aspects: remaining level intro texts and story cutscenes, including the hold ending.
* Testing and feedback for levels posted in 2017/18.

Everything else is inessential, but given that the above will take some time anyway, it's likely we will get a couple more bonus levels in during this final phase in any case. (For reasons I won't go into, related to the specific structure we have given to integrating bonus levels into the hold, there is a particular number of bonus levels I'd like to have in the ideal case, and I think it's reasonable at this point to hope we can make that goal.)

So I'm being as ruthless as I can At this point, September is the earliest point it's reasonable to set as a final deadline, but now I really believe we can make it by then. And I am so excited at the possibility of finally getting this finished

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50th Skywatcher

ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2796
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Alright. I have to remember that every other person's situation doesn't mirror what I went through. People's personalities and how they get things done can vary greatly.

I'm glad you aren't giving up, and admire your commitment. The hold sounds like a wonderful contribution.

-Erik


____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

GerAvos
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 51
Registered: 05-28-2016
IP: Logged

An entry point is exactly whats needed. If the difficulty curve is actually fair for newcomers, pls dont cancel this and put it into the main game kthxbye ^^

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5106
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Don't worry, there's no question at all of cancelling it now that we've come this far!

As for the difficulty curve, we've had excellent testing and feedback particularly on the first half of the hold, so I can assure you that it starts off at a level suitable for absolute beginners, and builds up gradually. (For experienced players, there's an option to skip the first four levels.) This doesn't mean players should expect never to get stuck. We want the hold to be fun to play, and as this is a puzzle game, that means setting interesting puzzles and challenging the player to use the knowledge they've gained in new situations.

Anyway, time for an update We've made excellent progress in the last couple of months, and now have 122 finished levels and 1984 rooms. Of the five "essential" levels mentioned in the last few posts, two are done, and two more should be finished in June. The "final boss" level will take a bit longer, but it is making progress, and as more levels get finished, more of us are freed up to help out

We've also made great progress on the optional content. Enough, in fact, that there's no longer any question of finishing just the "essential" levels so as to hurry this out the door. We want the structure of optional content to feel complete and rounded off, and there are a couple more levels we need for that, and after the progress we've made recently, there's every reason to believe we can get everything in place in good time.

As always, anyone who wants to help out is welcome to sign up, particularly for testing.

____________________________
50th Skywatcher

Citrus
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1237
Registered: 01-08-2006
IP: Logged

Would be willing to be a fresh set of eyes. Haven't played DROD in a while so it'll be a fresh perspective.

____________________________
Call me Citrus.

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5106
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

File: EP Temporal Regulator.png (708 KB)
Downloaded 855 times.
License: Public Domain

It's a long time since we shared any content from EP, so here is a screenshot of the 2000th room



Also, I forgot to announce this at the time, but we have now (almost exactly a year ago, in fact) decided on a title for the hold. It is: The Descent of King Hesper. As to what that title means... you'll have to wait and play the hold to find out

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50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 06-10-2018 04:32 AM]

navithmastero
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 630
Registered: 01-03-2012
IP: Logged

In which King Hesper goes down an escalator.

____________________________
Member of the Snake Appreciation Society

One of your local HAs.

My stuff:

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[Last edited by navithmastero at 06-10-2018 11:12 AM]

mauvebutterfly
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 795
Registered: 05-03-2015
IP: Logged

Ugh. Those pressure plates though.

____________________________
106th Skywatcher

navithmastero
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 630
Registered: 01-03-2012
IP: Logged

mauvebutterfly wrote:
Ugh. Those pressure plates though.

IT'S THE WAY THEY ARE MEANT TO BE!

____________________________
Member of the Snake Appreciation Society

One of your local HAs.

My stuff:

LeoS
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 276
Registered: 04-02-2015
IP: Logged

There's no reason to assume King Hesper is a person (cf. King of Prussia, PA), so I'm guessing the village of King Hesper has been overrun by skunks and the quest is to find a way to fully clear the odor. They just forgot the hyphen in 'de-scent'.

There'll likely be a mash-up level combining ideas from that Big Burrito hold with re-themed roaches that have a little white stripe down the back...

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5106
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Time for another update, and it's a significant one.

A certain level that was begun in March 2015 has now been finished. With this, four of the five "essential" levels are done; only the final boss level is outstanding. Also, I mentioned in my 1/1/2016 post that the penultimate level would be divided into six blocks of four rooms, each block by a different architect. My own block -- thus, just four rooms -- is the only part of "required" content remaining to be completed. (Here, "required" means part of the player's path to conquering the hold. The final boss level isn't required; it unlocks a better ending.)

With progress on other levels as well, the number of rooms now stands at 2070.

It's still going to take some time before the hold is finished. There are a handful of optional levels remaining, but more significantly, it will take a while to complete feedback and editing. However, we've crossed another huge milestone and the end is even closer in sight.

Thanks to everyone for waiting patiently while we get this finished

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50th Skywatcher

komachi
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 180
Registered: 07-30-2012
IP: Logged

thanks for the update.
Take your time to polish and make better the hold, but I can't wait to see it .

Omegha
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 21
Registered: 03-06-2015
IP: Logged

Hello there! I wonder what is the current progress on the hold? I'm waiting impatiently for years now and the curiousity eats me over. DO you think you can post an estimate of month when it should be released? Don't feel rushed though, I'm really glad you prefer it to be polished than to be rushed to satisfy the waiters. If you can't update it a bit or assume a month then it's fine too, of course. Thank you for your hard work, and all the people that are working on this project.

PigmyWubba
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 165
Registered: 04-14-2012
IP: Logged

We've been in a slow period for a while now, a lot of the team has been busy, but from what I heard we are hoping to push for a release before the end of this year.

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790th Raft Complaint Clerk-

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[Last edited by PigmyWubba at 05-07-2019 07:16 AM]