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larrymurk
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Jacob wrote:
So, should we seriously consider releasing a new version of TSS, with puzzles simplified or removed?

Not a bad idea. What do the dev team think?


I'm happy to make easier versions of my rooms if you want.
10-02-2014 at 10:44 PM
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navithmastero
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Jacob wrote:
So, should we seriously consider releasing a new version of TSS, with puzzles simplified or removed?

Not a bad idea. What do the dev team think?


I don't think releasing a new version of TSS is what Jordthro or Banjooie meant. A taster? Yes. A complete easy-mode? No. I think what they mean is a whistle-stop tour of the eighth as well as a bit on Beethro's past. If people already concluded the story of TSS, they might not want to go back and play the whole game again * 4.

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10-02-2014 at 10:59 PM
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Jordthro
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Banjooie wrote:
No. Stop.

You skipped Jordthro's post just now, because you actually bothered scrolling down this far instead of hitting reply and going 'yes, this'.

I see you scrolling. Scroll back up. Light versions of the holds with the important story bits in them at /minimum/, Easy Mode style, is an amazing idea.


Thanks, Banjooie.

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navithmastero wrote:
quote:
Jacob wrote:
So, should we seriously consider releasing a new version of TSS, with puzzles simplified or removed?

Not a bad idea. What do the dev team think?


I don't think releasing a new version of TSS is what Jordthro or Banjooie meant. A taster? Yes. A complete easy-mode? No. I think what they mean is a whistle-stop tour of the eighth as well as a bit on Beethro's past. If people already concluded the story of TSS, they might not want to go back and play the whole game again * 4.

-nm


Yeah, I actually don't think TSS should be changed at all. I think it's perfect. I was only thinking about these "Lite" holds as a perfect way of getting newbs up to speed story-wise while also teaching them the mechanics as they were initially introduced in the levels. After they complete them (and the optional Gunthro) hold, they would then be able to presumably tackle TSS. I anticipate a pretty large influx of people from Steam and GOG to migrate over, and it would be great to be prepared for them by getting them to a place where they're "hooked" and want to devote the time to getting good enough to go through TSS. Again, it would be a shame if they failed to reach the "hooked" point even though they are the target audience (they just don't know they are).

As far as the SMS's go, it might also be a good decision to incorporate some of the really pertinent plot of some of these, although this might arguably dissuade people into purchasing the SMS's. A possible solution: make lite versions of plot hold SMS's that can be bought collectively as a bundle as DLC. Again, feel free to disagree. That's just one idea, I'm sure there are better ones out there. Again, I'm just trying to solve the problem of keeping the largest fan-base possible (through the Steam and GOG greenlights) and not driving people away from DROD who give up prematurely on it because TSS is by no means a hold a total DROD newb should start on.

On an unrelated note, I really like Erik's advice on architecture where he purposefully creates somewhat easy rooms even in the midst of challenging levels--as a kind of breather. Honestly, I know people think that KDD is a bit outdated in terms of hold design, but I think it did a great job of teaching monster mechanics simply by giving people easy enough rooms where they could see for themselves how the monsters adapted to movements and sword swings, mimics and invisibility potions, etc... I also remember appreciating those breather rooms when I was learning DROD. I hope that philosophy carries over into "Entry Point" or whatever hold(s) come out of this thread, because it really gives a newb a great sense of accomplishment and doesn't leave you feeling like every room requires H&S.

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10-03-2014 at 03:22 AM
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Nuntar
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On the other hand, it seems a bit cruel to new players, if we make Story Mode versions of the other main holds, to effectively say "Hope we got you hooked on Beethro's story... now to enjoy the best installment, you have to complete a very difficult hold by yourself."

It's true that if we make a Story Mode TSS, people who complete it have less incentive to go back and complete the real thing. But... why is that a problem? Caravel still get the revenue, and putting a novice player through the experience of a high-quality easier hold has more chance of hooking them on DROD then getting them frustrated with a high-quality difficult hold.

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10-03-2014 at 03:02 PM
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Instead of easier versions of past games, why not bring JtRH (and to a lesser extent TCB) up to the modern standard of architecture and puzzle design? Maintain the difficulty since JtRH is already the right balance of accessibility and challenge, just rework some of the more tedious rooms and incorporate more linchpins and such. Not a straight update, more of a retelling/reimagining.

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10-03-2014 at 03:37 PM
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Nuntar
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Pinnacle wrote: Maintain the difficulty since JtRH is already the right balance of accessibility and challenge

For whom?

Games commonly have multiple difficulty levels so that players of different strengths can enjoy them; I don't see why that shouldn't work for DROD. (It's true that secret rooms, and the forthcoming update with scripted challenges, do some of this, but only in the direction of adding more content at harder difficulties.)

There are, of course, a large number of usermade holds of all difficulties, but there is a noticeable lack of high-quality holds at the easier end. And most usermade holds are much shorter than the official holds, so there is a real lack of accessible content. And new players are cut off from enjoying the canon storyline until they are good enough to complete JtRH. I really don't see why that's desirable.

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10-03-2014 at 05:15 PM
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Nuntar
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Meanwhile, an update on our progress with Entry Point. (Just to clarify, that is a working title, and the hold will be given a proper title when we have more idea of the storyline.)

The introductory tier is finished, and Tier 1 nearly finished. We have a total of twelve completed levels and 140 rooms. So, I don't know whether the project will last long enough to cover the planned eight tiers and the full range of elements, but we could now stop at any point from here on and we would have a good introductory hold that can be tidied up and promoted to Holds.

Of course, I would like it to go all the way :) We've started work on Tier 2, and anyone is welcome to join in. Bomber50 is running the beta board, so you would need to send him a PM.

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10-04-2014 at 07:14 PM
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Chaco
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Nuntar wrote:
Meanwhile, an update on our progress with Entry Point. (Just to clarify, that is a working title, and the hold will be given a proper title when we have more idea of the storyline.)

The introductory tier is finished, and Tier 1 nearly finished. We have a total of twelve completed levels and 140 rooms. So, I don't know whether the project will last long enough to cover the planned eight tiers and the full range of elements, but we could now stop at any point from here on and we would have a good introductory hold that can be tidied up and promoted to Holds.



Oh, neat, you're making a collaborative hold like Way Forward for the TSS elements? That's great!

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10-04-2014 at 07:18 PM
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blorx1
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As much as I'd like to remain a perpetual doubter, this hold might actually get released. As such, getting into the beta board is my best hope of having an excuse to not take all the firsts when it gets released.

I might also be liable to do any of the following once I become less busy.
Test/break rooms
Make rooms
improve aesthetics

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10-06-2014 at 02:27 AM
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Godot23
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Hmm... So one tier is 180 rooms. 8 planned tiers at a 180 rooms a piece... Would come out to arou... :yikes

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10-06-2014 at 03:43 AM
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Nuntar
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No, the intro tier is 58 rooms. Tier 1 is currently 91 rooms (only one level is unfinished, so it will not reach 100).

And Tier 2 is coming on very nicely now -- five finished levels and 52 rooms, bringing the totals to seventeen and 201.

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10-06-2014 at 01:27 PM
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Pinnacle
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This hold isn't really hypothetical anymore, it's coming along quite well!

Here are some screenshots to show off what we have so far:

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Current level count: 26 (some of these are hubs and story-related levels, but a decent number are puzzle levels)
Current room count: 288

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10-13-2014 at 08:06 PM
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larrymurk
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Nice, keep up the good work guys!
10-13-2014 at 08:16 PM
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khrusty
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Not that I would want to add some work to this ambitious project, but it doesn't seem to include the scripted features of the official holds (such as the player roles, the lemmings and so on)... I thought Shendy had done a good job presenting the player roles in one of his tutorial holds.

Anyway, good luck!:thumbsup
11-19-2014 at 09:49 PM
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Jeff_Ray...
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I do believe we're planning on having a few levels dedicated to different player roles. However, we probably won't include TSS' scripted elements. Don't quote me on any of that though, I don't know the team's stance on those yet.

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11-19-2014 at 10:16 PM
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Nuntar
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Is it time for another progress report? :P We are now halfway through Tier 3, and the totals so far are 32 finished levels and exactly 400 rooms. We have slowed down, partly due to the start of the academic year and partly just because we're moving into (slightly) harder levels. But now that we've got this far, I'm confident we can finish all eight tiers as originally planned :)

When I was invited to coordinate the project, I made the same observation about the omission of player roles, and we went with my suggestion of including them in "interludes" between the tiers. Some of these let the player control another character in the story (yes, we have a storyline for the hold planned out); others have Beethro in an unusual role (e.g. in guard disguise).

We haven't made a decision yet on whether we'll do anything with lemmings, scripted mimics or any other scripted elements.

We would still love to have more architects to join the project, if anyone's interested :)

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11-20-2014 at 01:25 AM
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Jacob
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I hope to get involved (even if it's just to test out levels)when I find a little more time. Am spreading myself pretty thin at the moment.

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11-20-2014 at 10:55 AM
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khrusty
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Nuntar wrote:
Is it time for another progress report? :P We are now halfway through Tier 3, and the totals so far are 32 finished levels and exactly 400 rooms.


Looks like EP is on track for a mammoth 999 rooms hold...
11-21-2014 at 01:05 AM
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Pinnacle
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khrusty wrote:
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Nuntar wrote:
Is it time for another progress report? :P We are now halfway through Tier 3, and the totals so far are 32 finished levels and exactly 400 rooms.


Looks like EP is on track for a mammoth 999 rooms hold...


999? 3-digit room counts are for slackers :P

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11-21-2014 at 04:05 AM
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The Architest
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If there's a place free, I could perhaps join in? :)

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11-21-2014 at 12:58 PM
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Nuntar
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Right now, we're halfway done with Tier 3, and the remaining levels in this tier have been allocated (and from the sounds of it, most have already been started). We probably won't officially start Tier 4 until after Christmas, but if you want to join in and get started on a Tier 4 level, that would be great. You would need bomber50 to invite you to the beta board.

The allocation of elements to tiers has changed considerably from the first post in this topic. At the moment, planned elements for Tier 4 are: tar, red serpents, goblins, the spear, shallow water and seeding beacons.

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11-21-2014 at 01:37 PM
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How's this project going? I've been looking forward to it.
03-19-2015 at 07:43 PM
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Nuntar
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Current status:

Tier 4 is nearly finished (and in fact, the first level of Tier 5 is also done). We have 49 finished levels and 616 rooms -- already making EP the largest usermade hold ever, and the second-largest hold ever (behind TSS, of course).

As always, we would love more people to get involved with the project and help us bring it to completion sooner. I (not bomber50) am now in charge of invitations to the beta board, so anyone who wants to contribute should ask me for an invitation :)

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03-19-2015 at 08:42 PM
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Nuntar
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Another milestone has been reached. Entry Point now has 64 levels and 889 rooms, making it the single largest hold ever.

In terms of tiers, Tier 5 is mostly done and substantial parts of Tier 6 are done, so I'd say the hold is roughly 60% finished.

It's been a long journey to get this far, but I can say pretty much for certain now that we're going to make it to the end.

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05-27-2015 at 02:27 AM
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Nuntar
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And now, we have 71 levels and 1013 rooms. We made it past 1000! :thumbsup

Now that we've got this far, we are heading towards the endgame stages of the hold, and it would be awesome if some more architects who are expert in building high-tier puzzles would join the team! Just contact me if you're interested.

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06-13-2015 at 11:54 PM
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Elswyyr
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Do you need playtesters at the moment?
06-14-2015 at 01:11 PM
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Nuntar
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We can always do with more playtesters -- you have to have CaravelNet and turn on "Available for beta testing" in your profile so that I can send you an invitation to the beta board.

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06-14-2015 at 04:39 PM
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Elswyyr
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Nuntar wrote:
We can always do with more playtesters -- you have to have CaravelNet and turn on "Available for beta testing" in your profile so that I can send you an invitation to the beta board.

I have just done so. Thanks!
06-14-2015 at 04:45 PM
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Pinnacle
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To clarify just what kind of puzzles we're looking for in the endgame: this project has evolved quite a bit beyond being a simple introductory hold. At this point, "high-tier puzzles" isn't a relative term, this actually means puzzles in the 7-10 brain range (the mandatory content would probably peak at around 7.5-8 brains, but deep-endgame content could easily exceed that.)

So if you weren't interested in this project because you perceived it as some sort of extended tutorial, that's not an accurate perception at all.

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[Last edited by Pinnacle at 06-14-2015 09:50 PM]
06-14-2015 at 09:37 PM
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Dischorran
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So, a directionless behemoth collapsing under its own weight then?

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06-14-2015 at 10:34 PM
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