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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Feature Requests : Wait for Clean Level & Fixing Backtrackability Issues
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navithmastero
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icon Wait for Clean Level & Fixing Backtrackability Issues (+1)  
Hello!

When one wants something to happen once the level is clear, for example, change a variable, one must (as far as I know) have a variable for each room, where a change is activated once the room is clear. For example:

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(or something along these lines)

This can be rather annoying to put into every room (even with the default script feature), especially with a large level, so I think it would be easier just to have a:
Wait for clean level


It would save a lot of time and will-power. :thumbsup

Thanks,

-nm

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01-02-2013 at 01:01 PM
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skell
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And I am pretty sure it would be very easy to code too :).

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01-02-2013 at 02:09 PM
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Tim
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icon Re: Wait for Clean Level (0)  
There is a very incredibly simple way to test if the current level is clear. Also, backward compatible from JtRH.

You put a blue door in the room and test if the door at that location is open.

I used this technique already back in Tunnel Vision.

(So, otherwise, a most original idea. ;))

As an exercise for the reader, find the blue doors in that hold. :P



PS. Doesn't mean I don't like the idea, it's like "Wait until room clear". And if you wait until that happens, it would be as original as my 6-year-old hold. :)

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[Last edited by Tim at 01-02-2013 02:23 PM]
01-02-2013 at 02:09 PM
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navithmastero
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Tim wrote:
You put a blue door in the room and test if the door at that location is open.

Heh, I didn't think of that, I was just more thinking of in a situation when there isn't actually a blue door.
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And yes, skell, it is very easy to code in the editor, so I suppose this thread is rather worthless ;)

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[Last edited by navithmastero at 02-18-2013 07:33 AM]
01-02-2013 at 03:33 PM
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skell
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navithmastero wrote:
And yes, skell, it is very easy to code, so I suppose this thread is rather worthless ;)
What I meant is that it is very easy to code so, if devs like it, it shouldn't be a problem to add it to TSS.

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01-02-2013 at 03:48 PM
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navithmastero
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skell wrote:
navithmastero wrote:
And yes, skell, it is very easy to code, so I suppose this thread is rather worthless ;)
What I meant is that it is very easy to code so, if devs like it, it shouldn't be a problem to add it to TSS.

Ahh yes, I did think of that, but what I meant is it's easy to script with variables.

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[Last edited by navithmastero at 01-03-2013 07:57 AM]
01-02-2013 at 09:41 PM
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mrimer
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Sure, we can add a new script command for this in 5.0.

...take it away, skell!

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01-02-2013 at 10:05 PM
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Trickster
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icon Re: Wait for Clean Level (0)  
On a similar note, could there end up being some way to ensure the player cannot leave a room unless it has been conquered? Green doors just don't do the trick when you can respawn stuff babies, and this possibility has caused me a lot of grief and black-door usage in the past.

I realize the way "around this" is just to make sure if you use stuff, you have multiple door-guards in place or allow the room to be entered more than once. But hopefully you can see the problem.

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01-02-2013 at 10:20 PM
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Tim
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Trickster wrote:
On a similar note, could there end up being some way to ensure the player cannot leave a room unless it has been conquered? Green doors just don't do the trick when you can respawn stuff babies, and this possibility has caused me a lot of grief and black-door usage in the past.

I realize the way "around this" is just to make sure if you use stuff, you have multiple door-guards in place or allow the room to be entered more than once. But hopefully you can see the problem.
No, and I doubt that anyone will see this problem either.

Because, there's already something in game that allows the player to stop leaving a room. Since you are not even using it, chances are that you won't use this one either.

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01-02-2013 at 11:05 PM
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mrimer
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Can you please be more specific? Thanks.

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01-02-2013 at 11:11 PM
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Tim
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mrimer wrote:
Can you please be more specific? Thanks.
Not sure if you mean me, but if it is, the answer is "no, sorry".

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01-02-2013 at 11:21 PM
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mrimer
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icon Re: Wait for Clean Level (0)  
Heh, maybe I need to be more specific. I'm asking about what you're referring to when you mention
there's already something in game that allows the player to stop leaving a room.
Are you by chance talking about the room lock feature, or something else?

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01-02-2013 at 11:23 PM
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Trickster
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mrimer wrote:
Are you by chance talking about the room lock feature, or something else?
Yeah, I'm confused here too. Let me restate the problem.

You build a room with a green door and a tar mother. The player kills the tar mother, negligently makes a baby and exits without killing the baby. When the player returns by this path, they're screwed, because the green door blocks them from entering and/or it's not designed to be beatable from this entrance.

This usually requires extra scripting or room changes or planning (at least for my holds), and it's annoying. I've had to add black doors places that probably shouldn't need them in the past. I don't know that there's a good solution for it, but I'd like to have a foolproof way of preventing exit from an unconquered state.

It's probably not going to change, but I wanted to bring it up while it was still on my mind. I think the possible fix I suggested a few months back was "spiky green doors". Unlike standard green doors, these pop up the moment a room returns to an unconquered state (or maybe even any time a monster appears even if room is conquered!), and if you stand on them when they pop up, they kill you.

I think these would be foolproof as long as they border the exit or stair tile, which is why I suggested them. They might also have puzzle potential if they trigger only for spawned monsters (like stuff babies and roaches), in which case they'd still work if you had a standard green door interposed before the spiky green. This is assuming it's impossible to create a monster on the exit turn, which I believe is the case since Beethro moves first.

I'd be just as happy with a scripting command that prevents Beethro from using any exits or stairs, though.

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01-03-2013 at 01:11 AM
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skell
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I am personally against these doors because of how little puzzle potential they add (other than that they are pretty neat idea).

How about room-wide imperatives "Disable monster spawning" and "Enable monster spawning"?

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01-03-2013 at 08:54 AM
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navithmastero
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skell wrote:
How about room-wide imperatives "Disable monster spawning" and "Enable monster spawning"?

Yeah, I think this would be better, in the end DROD is a puzzle game, if a main element of the game does not add any puzzle potential, then it shouldn't really be there.

-nm

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01-03-2013 at 09:28 AM
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Lucky Luc
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I'm with Trickster here; so far there's just no decent way to ensure clean rooms (even with scripting).
skell wrote:
I am personally against these doors because of how little puzzle potential they add (other than that they are pretty neat idea).

How about room-wide imperatives "Disable monster spawning" and "Enable monster spawning"?

Why are you so sure these doors have that little puzzle potetial? Just see Larry Murk's Magic Show 2 : Tri-color Tricks : 1 East as an example. Of course that's just one puzzle, but maybe architects would come up with other stuff once this element was easily accessible.

Also, I'm not sure how "Disable monster spawning" should work. Would you just be unable to cut tarstuff once this command has been evoked? Or would you be able to cut tarstuff without spawning anything? Both options would feel rather strange in my opinion.
01-03-2013 at 12:15 PM
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navithmastero
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Lucky Luc wrote:
I'm with Trickster here; so far there's just no decent way to ensure clean rooms (even with scripting).

The problem is that, as far as I can think of, there is no easy way around this. Do you suggest any other way to get around it other than what skell and Trickster suggested?

-nm

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01-03-2013 at 01:36 PM
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Lucky Luc
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Huh, no, why would you think that? I meant to support Trickster's suggestion (spiky green doors), not add a new one (if I wanted to do so, I would have). I totally agree that there is no easy way around this problem (I thought that's what I said), and I think it's a good idea to add a feature. Two ways were proposed so far: Doing it with spiky doors or with some new scripting command. Since so far most arguments were in favour of scripting commands, I thought I'd add a few in favour of doors (though I personally wouldn't kill the player but let it close like a normal door; I can see the point about it not being foolproof, but it just seems more like DROD to me and the room I've linked would also only work that way). Sorry if that has been unclear.
01-03-2013 at 02:21 PM
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skell
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Lucky Luc wrote:
Why are you so sure these doors have that little puzzle potetial? Just see Larry Murk's Magic Show 2 : Tri-color Tricks : 1 East as an example. Of course that's just one puzzle, but maybe architects would come up with other stuff once this element was easily accessible.
I am not so sure, if you have good arguments that these doors would have a good puzzle potential, bring it on! What I mean is that such door have very limited scope - they act the same as regular green doors except very specific rooms involving tarstuff (and script monsters appearing). It doesn't interact with anything in any novel way. It begs for more versatility or an experienced architect to give it a thought. I, personally, just want more arguments for this feature before agreeing that it is a fitting idea but it's just my personal thought.

Lucky Luc wrote:
Also, I'm not sure how "Disable monster spawning" should work. Would you just be unable to cut tarstuff once this command has been evoked? Or would you be able to cut tarstuff without spawning anything? Both options would feel rather strange in my opinion.
I am sure scripting felt rather strange when it was first introduced. So did Rock Giants, sheathing sword, citizens and any other elements which were very different. Anyhow, in my head, this imperative would prevent any new monster from spawning - no roach eggs and tar babies. I am not saying it IS a good idea - it's just an idea.

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01-03-2013 at 02:45 PM
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Well, as the normal green doors are linked to the presence of monsters in the room, them remaining open when monsters are again in the room could be considered "unexpected" already... So a door that closes again wouldn't be strange.
What would be strange is some behaviour that is different in some rooms than others and not instantly visible (i.e. a scripting solution to this problem).
A visible way could involve a token that either blocks the spawning or alters what the doors do... But having two different types of door would be the most versatile, as you could mix normal and spiked doors in one room, and still have normal tarstuff.

Spiked yellow doors could have some puzzle potential, too. Work the same as normal but kill you if you're squashed in one. Maybe they could block seep movement too or something.

[Last edited by Moo at 01-03-2013 04:00 PM]
01-03-2013 at 03:56 PM
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skell wrote:
Lucky Luc wrote:
Why are you so sure these doors have that little puzzle potetial? Just see Larry Murk's Magic Show 2 : Tri-color Tricks : 1 East as an example. Of course that's just one puzzle, but maybe architects would come up with other stuff once this element was easily accessible.
I am not so sure, if you have good arguments that these doors would have a good puzzle potential, bring it on!

Lucky Luc, this was what I was trying to say, although perhaps I was being rather vague, and probably didn't put it in the best of tones :). I agree with skell and I also don't really see the puzzle potential, or how well it would work. For example, as Trickster already said, it would only work on room exits, and so, if these spiky-green doors weren't to be placed on a room exit (or at all, actually) they would, for all intents and purposes, be a regular green door. -_-

-nm

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01-03-2013 at 04:08 PM
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Tim
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As the person who has found hundreds(!) of rooms with tar backtracking problems during HA testing, I would say something that prevents architects to make this kind of mistakes is very welcome. It is a huge problem because this happens a lot in holds by (mostly inexperienced) architects, and basically I suffer the most because I had to test them. Believe me, these things takes time to test.

But please don't implement this with a scripting command. The people who are very likely to make this kind of mistakes usually will also have problems with scripting, so asking them to use more scripting is just unfeasible. It also makes HA's work even more harder because they will have to "guess the script" even more.

My preference would be a large, hard to miss token, one that does not need to be activated. With such a token, I can just look at the room in one look and find that it's backtrack-proof. Any other method like doors or scripting means even more testing than it is now.

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01-03-2013 at 04:27 PM
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A token that shows its backtrack proof is ok, but people would still need to know they have to place it, and they probably wouldn't always, or might place them unnecessarily. And how would it make it backtrack proof exactly?

How about making green doors at the edges of rooms be spiked by default for rooms created with the new version? With some way of overriding that if wanted...
It seems people still create holds for old versions so probably it won't help avoid mistakes that much, just make things easier for people who are using the new version.
01-03-2013 at 05:11 PM
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Lucky Luc
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skell wrote:
Lucky Luc wrote:
Why are you so sure these doors have that little puzzle potetial? Just see Larry Murk's Magic Show 2 : Tri-color Tricks : 1 East as an example. Of course that's just one puzzle, but maybe architects would come up with other stuff once this element was easily accessible.
I am not so sure, if you have good arguments that these doors would have a good puzzle potential, bring it on! What I mean is that such door have very limited scope - they act the same as regular green doors except very specific rooms involving tarstuff (and script monsters appearing). It doesn't interact with anything in any novel way. It begs for more versatility or an experienced architect to give it a thought. I, personally, just want more arguments for this feature before agreeing that it is a fitting idea but it's just my personal thought.

Okay, I can totally see your point. Then again, you might also say that black gates are extremely specific objects as they only interact with tarstuff ;) . (don't worry, this isn't meant too seriously).
All I can say is that in my short architectural career (two holds on the architecture board waiting for conquerers), I already needed to work around this problem twice, and I really mean needed it, not just it might have been handy. In at least one of these cases, these doors would have been extremly helpful. Here are possible uses I can think of spontanously:

(*) Prevent the player from exiting a "dirty" room (obviously).
(*) Create puzzles where the player has to switch between conquered and unconquered room state. I already showed an example puzzle for this, and I do believe there are more possibilities for this. For example, have a mimic in a small area together with a single mud blob. Have the player do something while he has to keep the blob alive. Once done, kill the mud blob, walk through a spiky door, kill the babies, walk through the second spiky door, exit room.
(*) Create extra puzzles for already conquered rooms that contain tarstuff. Example for this: My own hold Missile Mania : Research Facility : 1 North, 4 East.

I admit that all these points could be bypassed with new scripting commands (for example my suggestionWait while entity real monster), but why not just adding a simple element to cover all these cases at once?

nm: Okay, sorry, I guess I misunderstood your post then. :blush
01-03-2013 at 05:31 PM
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navithmastero
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nm: Okay, sorry, I guess I misunderstood your post then. :blush

Heh, no problem! :)

-nm

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01-03-2013 at 05:39 PM
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Well it doesn't need to be a token. It could be a "button" of sort under the 2nd tab in the editor(where the force arrows, orthosquares and such are kept) which when pressed(held down) highlights tar based backtracking problems.

Ofcourse I'm only suggesting that tab cos that's the most empty one...

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01-03-2013 at 05:53 PM
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navithmastero
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Uhh, I'm not sure what you mean. We're not discussing whether a scripted monster appears, we're discussing what would happen after a monster is made after the green door is dropped.

-nm

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01-03-2013 at 06:52 PM
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skell wrote:
I am personally against these doors because of how little puzzle potential they add (other than that they are pretty neat idea).

How about room-wide imperatives "Disable monster spawning" and "Enable monster spawning"?
I'm not trying to enable puzzles, I'm trying to fix a problem. But I agree it doesn't add much.

So for the suggestion, I don't think it helps. Does that mean after clearing a room and scripting it to disable spawns, that when I stab tar it will mysteriously vanish? I don't think that's a good solution.

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01-03-2013 at 07:30 PM
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That's the sole reason I mentioned that. Sorry. :(

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01-03-2013 at 07:33 PM
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Tim wrote:
As the person who has found hundreds(!) of rooms with tar backtracking problems during HA testing, I would say something that prevents architects to make this kind of mistakes is very welcome. It is a huge problem because this happens a lot in holds by (mostly inexperienced) architects, and basically I suffer the most because I had to test them. Believe me, these things takes time to test.
Thank you.

If spiky greens leave people cold, the best solution may be a scripting command that blocks Beethro from exiting by wall or stair. Any attempt to leave will undo the action, and you can detect the attempt to have him say something like, "I shouldn't leave without killing the tar babies," or whatever.

The downside is that architects would need to know how to do it, but it's still better than nothing.

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