The spitemaster
Level: Smiter
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Look.

The past three major releases have been on a steady incline of difficulty. JtRH is freaking difficult to begin with and then TCB comes along and adds tons of new elements with comparable difficulty. And if you are not CSR, (Which I assure you most of us are not) then there is a vast number of difficult holds that you have not beaten.

We are not lacking on difficulty and struggles. What we are short on is players. We were not able to beat 44 people online at the same time? And we planned for it ahead of time? How many people are on the internet anyways?

GatEB may not be what you wanted. FW may not be as difficult as you wanted. (But FW is so funny) But they needed to be done. Especially when we are releasing a Flash version of KDD. "Come to our forum and play our new game on sale. It has elements you have never heard of, and is eight times harder than what you just beat." ??? Really sounds like a great sales pitch.

I was watching Someone Else (my brother for those that don't know) play FW and slowly learn the joy of optimization. In the span of two days he fought and contested 15 different rooms for first place. There was about ten other people fighting him for them. That looked like a lot of fun. The competition of those people, raised a 6.5 brains hold to an 8 and raised the enjoyment factor tons. But we need people to do it.

So, please so saying "I didn't like it because of my petty reasons and I wasted my time" You help no one. Spend more time on feature requests talking about new elements. Find some way to help with the story. Or start some awesome contests to engage to the people that have been drawn back to the fourm. But quit mopping. It makes me tired to read it.

I'm done now.

____________________________
Last night upon a stair
I met a man that wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish that man would stay away

west.logan
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 608
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Sounds like a decent rant to me.

I'm pleased with the difficulty. I'm no monster that thinks my time is wasted unless I have 10-brain puzzles to chew on. In fact, I would have paid money just for the new engine and scenery (again, very much a step forward in aesthetics: kudos!). The story is interesting so far, the voice-acting is pleasurable, and the puzzles are clever but don't require tons of time.

I would love to see holds that feature stories and scripting comparable to this, and increase the difficulty if you want to. You've got a great engine to do it on now.

____________________________
-Logan

Jatopian
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Well okay, but there are other criticisms I've seen made by multiple people that have nothing to do with difficulty.

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The spitemaster
Level: Smiter
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Jatopian wrote:
Well okay, but there are other criticisms I've seen made by multiple people that have nothing to do with difficulty.

I think that mostly falls under my "petty reason" category. (With a few exceptions - See game crashing bugs)

____________________________
Last night upon a stair
I met a man that wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish that man would stay away

Jatopian
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The spitemaster wrote:
I think that mostly falls under my "petty reason" category. (With a few exceptions - See game crashing bugs)

Mm. Perhaps. I'm categorically leery of categorical dismissals, myself. I really should find the time to play the new game at some point so I can properly contribute to this discussions. You know, in addition to the other reasons to buy the new game.

____________________________
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Make your pressure plates 3.0 style!
DROD architecture idea generator

Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

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It's good to know that anyone who dislikes GatEB couldn't possibly have any qualms besides difficulty without being petty, Spitemaster.

Please, tell me more about how unassailable Caravel Games is.


Because I liked most of GatEB, but boy howdy do I have complaints.

Bombadil
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 509
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The spitemaster wrote:
Spend more time on feature requests talking about new elements. Find some way to help with the story. Or start some awesome contests to engage to the people that have been drawn back to the fourm. But quit mopping. It makes me tired to read it.

Before I say this, I want to make clear that, even though the puzzles were a bit easy for me*, I enjoyed GatEB a lot anyway.

But, this things you are saying we should do are Caravel's job. We forumites are, in the end, costumers. Loving costumers, caring costumers, but customers.

I believe that when most of us criticize a feature or something on GatEB it is not to mop or complain, it's because we payed some good money for it, and we would like to make ourselves heard so that Caravel can make the next release even better.

Anyway, as mrimer has posted in another thread, I think the general consensus in the forum is that the the people are enjoying the game. Even if someone criticizes a 1%, does not mean he didn't enjoy the remaining 99%.

*Difficulty is the one thing that people should not complain about. We knew we were getting an easier game, aimed to new players.

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[Last edited by Bombadil at 04-11-2012 09:34 AM]

Suwako
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 145
Registered: 04-29-2011
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I have liked a lot the new DROD,i think i was on tueno coast for now.

The difficult is very nice, i can't pass from the level "under the library" without hints, and it's the start of TCB, so i liked that the caravel team reduced the difficult to make more people playing the game. As me for example.

The only thing I understand to complain is the lack o the new elements, only two horns and a blue guard, but the elements are very good used in GatEB, and i'm sure someone can do a better rooms with them.

The new places have a great music, I love the melodies of them.

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A moment last forever, an eternity passes in an instant, the time I spent here was inevitable...

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[Last edited by Suwako at 04-11-2012 12:11 PM]

SirNiko
Level: Delver

Rank Points: 62
Registered: 04-19-2009
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I feel like the comments on this forum are going to be more negative than the comments from players in general.

GatEB is aimed at newer players, with lower difficulty maps that stress basic elements of the game instead of combinations of elements like the later titles. The story is that of a prequel, which makes it playable by new players without them getting lost in the story or spoiled for future games. I fully expect a player who has never played a DROD game before to thoroughly enjoy GatEB.

Unfortunately, the Caravel forums do not contain newer players. A whole level revolving around simple puzzles that utilize the basic mechanics of wraithwings or evil eyes are not going to entertain them. The lack of any plot development means a release that doesn't advance the story. To these players GatEB was a miss. It's normal to hear players who are not in the game's target demographic to not enjoy the game.

The other elements, such as the weak character development or the ho-hum hub area maps aren't game-breaking problems, but they were things that I felt could and should be improved. These don't mean GatEB was failure. It just means that after previous releases hit perfect bullseyes, Caravel has released a game that just hit the edge of the target. If nobody is willing to point out these mistakes, they can never improve them for the next release.

GatEB is not a bad game. It is an above average game that was targeted to a different audience than frequents this forum.

Hammerite
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 44
Registered: 07-13-2005
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I did notice that GatEB was considerably easier than the other DROD titles, but I totally understand the reasons for its being easier and I would like to say that I had great fun playing it all the same and don't regret buying it in the least.

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[Last edited by Hammerite at 04-11-2012 01:07 PM]

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
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Is this one of the oficial holds (including Smitemasters Selections) I have enjoyed the least? Definitly! Would I have bought it if it had cost twice as much? Definitly! Do I think it was a good idea to make an easy hold? Definitly! Do I think it might be greatly apreciated by new players? Defenitly! (maybe not so much the story, though). Did I enjoy it enough to pay money for it? Definitly! The think is I'm spoiled with brilliant user made holds, that I get for free. But I think you might be missing the "wanting to suport" factor, SirNiko. Apart from that the ability to play all user holds in a new engine, and to play all new material that will be produced (with all styles present) is worth a lot. Furthermore the SMS that you got was quite satisfactory, even for us "experts" (I think I may coun't myself as one of them).

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 04-11-2012 02:32 PM]

Dex Stewart
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Just for my two cents: I genuinely didn't mind at all that the main hold was very easy. What I did mind however was the relatively small amount of new game elements. There's soldiers, the horns and shallow water and I think that's it. Compared to both JtRH and TCB, that is tiny.

I'm not trying to say I was ripped off or anything. I'm just a little disappointed. Maybe next time I won't buy the game on day one, but I'll do some research instead. And if I conclude that the number of new elements is as small as this time around, I might not buy it at all.

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[Last edited by Dex Stewart at 04-11-2012 02:42 PM]

mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

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Dex Stewart wrote:
I'm not trying to say I was ripped off or anything. I'm just a little disappointed. Maybe next time I won't buy the game on day one, but I'll do some research instead. And if I conclude that the number of new elements is as small as this time around, I might not buy it at all.

We are planning a very large number of new game elements to be introduced in TSS. Naturally, this will require more development time to get it right.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

Bombadil
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 509
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mrimer wrote:

Dex Stewart wrote:
I'm not trying to say I was ripped off or anything. I'm just a little disappointed. Maybe next time I won't buy the game on day one, but I'll do some research instead. And if I conclude that the number of new elements is as small as this time around, I might not buy it at all.

We are planning a very large number of new game elements to be introduced in TSS. Naturally, this will require more development time to get it right.

I agree that GatEB featured few new elements but I think they were VERY well crafted. For instance, I find that the integration of shallow water with the rest of elements is superb and allows for a lot of new gameplay (I believe that Flood Warning is only the tip of the iceberg of ideas to combine shallow water with). Also, if the main hold was aimed to new DRODers, it might have been a bad design to cram the game with as many new elements as possible.

For me, a ton of new elements does not mean a better game. I remember when TCB came out that I got a overwhelmed by the number and complexity of new elements (citizens, scripting, ...) that made some rooms behavior very unpredictable and unmanageable. Since I didn't enjoy some of the new elements (at first), I stepped away from DROD a while to retake it some time later and finish TCB and so on.

Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1645
Registered: 12-12-2004
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Flood Warning was fantastic. Completely fantastic. I have precisely zero complaints about Flood Warning except that /every/ hold does not contain the glorious bravado and delusion that is ANYONE FROM TUENO.

I kind of like the peculiar way in which each country has its own special brand of crazy.

The rest of this I am editing out because I have /gone back on my word/ by posting it and that is regrettable and I apologize.

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[Last edited by Banjooie at 04-12-2012 06:41 AM]

Pearls
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 767
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Banjooie pretty much nailed my primary complaints about GatEB.

1) A disquieting lack of concept art after a veritable flood (warning) amount of it in JTRH. I would've liked to see more, but over all, I disagree with the "slightly modified rooms" sentiment. I think there was only one that really stuck out in my mind as being so.

2) Spoiler.



3) The ending to KDD gave us some indication of a greater conspiracy involved in the massive elaboration in the post-mastery-door area. JTRH was a satisfying conclusion for a different reason. TCB, I don't even need to elaborate. GatEB's ending felt like the midpoint to a much larger climax. Spoiler.


4) See my complaints about Flood Warning in the Holds forum.


So, all in all, my complaints about the game parts of the game are right in the neighborhood of none. So really, that part, very happy with given the context. It's the non-game part of the game that I wondered about a couple choices on, just given what you've dished out in the past.

"Better storyline than Halo: Reach" 9/10
"Not enough bacon." 3/10
"More swords than Grand Theft Auto." 10/10
"This game wasn't made by EA." 10/10
"What's a caravel anyway? Oh, I hate boats." 1/10
"Less ridiculous concept than Street Cleaner Sim" 6/10
"Fail Horn Sound. Nuff said." 11/10






____________________________
Hey, w-wait, that's the guy who shamelessly promotes his own...

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[Last edited by Pearls at 04-12-2012 01:53 AM : Punctuation, clarification.]

Keiya
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 73
Registered: 03-25-2012
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I think the story ending problem is a result of the Frogs and Mice legacy.

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SirNiko
Level: Delver

Rank Points: 62
Registered: 04-19-2009
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I think it's worth adding that I thought Flood Warning was an absolute masterpiece. The voice acting was excellent, and sprinkled evenly across the whole hold so you never hit a lull. While there are a few cutscenes, a lot of the story is told through in-level dialogue that doesn't interrupt the puzzles. The puzzles were exactly the right difficulty for me.

My opinion of my purchase rose significantly after playing through it. If TSS had the same production values throughout as Flood Warning, it would easily be the best DROD game.

Syntax
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1218
Registered: 05-12-2005
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The spitemaster wrote:
Look.
{snip}

I agree with you OP absolutely

robin
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 842
Registered: 09-01-2004
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Post Mastered.

I realy liked this hold, I new it was the "frogs and mice" project,
and I realy loved what you did with it, making it with Gunthro as smiter and Beethro as story teller, is just awesome.

I like the hub levels and the back tracking,
(that's why I also realy love TCB, SMS:CC and SMS:FtFT)
It gives you an extra puzzle within the puzzle.
And that's why I liked the "finding spider cave puzzel" as well, very much actually.

So I can't wait for the next official thing to be released and will definitely buy all future official DROD releases.

Thanks Caravel Team



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Stoney
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 39
Registered: 12-18-2007
IP: Logged

I´ve ordered today and have only played through the Demo Version so far. Yes, it seems to be easier, but I do not mind that at all for this game. The new character seems fun, the new engine works without crashing on my Mac. I hope to be able to import my other holds (JtRH,TCB,KDD) into it, so I can all play them natively on OSX.

I see GatEB as the game to get new players hooked on the series. I will definitely recommend it.

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[Last edited by Stoney at 04-14-2012 05:52 PM]

bingo
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 14
Registered: 08-17-2004
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robin wrote:
Post Mastered.

I realy liked this hold, I new it was the "frogs and mice" project,
and I realy loved what you did with it, making it with Gunthro as smiter and Beethro as story teller, is just awesome.

I like the hub levels and the back tracking,
(that's why I also realy love TCB, SMS:CC and SMS:FtFT)
It gives you an extra puzzle within the puzzle.
And that's why I liked the "finding spider cave puzzel" as well, very much actually.

So I can't wait for the next official thing to be released and will definitely buy all future official DROD releases.

Thanks Caravel Team

When you were in the spider cave, did you see a rattlesnake?

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robin
Level: Smitemaster

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bingo wrote:


When you were in the spider cave, did you see a rattlesnake?

No, but I did see a giraffe

Sorry, I couldn't resist

____________________________

Chaosgamer
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 88
Registered: 04-08-2009
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I enjoyed this hold very much, I don't understand why difficulty is a problem for gameplay. For one, the difficulty for this hold was just about right for me. I could actually complete it without spending every single minute looking up a room in the H&S forum.

As for game elements, I was disappointed AT FIRST, then I found out what the new elements were. At first I only saw the soldier in the level editor but the shallow water element can be easily expanded on, however I didn't play Flood Warning. Someone could easily create a token (I'm talking scripting, custom art etc.) That allows you to traverse shallow water upon stepping on it. Or a deep water only monster (SHARKS). Especially with the new scripting and engine, DROD possibilities are only the ones you put in front of yourself.

In regards to this attracting new players, I think was, is the earliest and perfect example of a game community. Since 2003 we've had, ahem;

- A forum to post
- Working in-game chat
- Level editor and user made levels
- A group of dedicated DROD players (You know who you are)
- A very flexible game with unique gameplay

The only problem is, I read this elsewhere, that this was all in the Indie game dark ages. I forgot who said it, but they talked about crappy game distributors like ArcadeTown? They depended on the indie game dark ages (by the way that's where I found Journey to the Rooted Hold). But now, with all these officially supported indie game annual or monthly competitions and steam, indie games have a great chance to be well known. In fact every single indie game I know on steam is well known.

Anyone heard of Q.U.B.E.? That game was fun, but it took me only 4 hours to complete and it didn't even have a level editor. The concept of the game was awesome but the creators of the game didn't allow it to expand (DROD scripting).

Really though, I think DROD has much potential sitting around. I mean DROD was on RockPaperShotgun so that's as close to steam as you can get. If DROD gets enough publicity on steam and other sites then it can become the next...uh well DROD is too unique to compare.

Anyways, if someone managed to make a well known DROD let's play on youtube then there will surely be a flood of new players. Haha get what I did there...? Anyways the only thing I'd worry about are more people like minimike98... RIP

gamer_extreme_101
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1939
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So, this release kind of brought me back into DROD. And frankly, after a couple solid years of not having played much, I enjoyed it. I just finally beat the Spider Cave this evening, and the overall difficulty of the hold was perfect for me - enough challenges to make it feel difficult, while not as frustrating as TCB was for me.

I'm happy with the release. Difficulty is one thing, but enjoyability should be the main factor in it.

____________________________
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Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1645
Registered: 12-12-2004
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I guess in the interest of some kind of bizarre fairness I did the Spider Cave finally.

...

I really, really loved Flood Warning.

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
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About the story: For me it would have felt hughely better if I had seen the leaders do brilliant stuff, and not just stand around neading to be rescued. One way to do this would have been cut scenes. Another way would hav been a split room, were Beethro solves half the room, and totally unrelated and cut of from the segment were Beethro is, you see a leader lead some men in a brilliant way against a hoard of monsters. You could even have let a really good player "play" the leader in advance, that is solving that half of the room, and then you, the player, gets to see that solution simultainiously with you solving your part of the room.

TripleM
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1373
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Seeing as there are plenty of reviews flying around now from all directions with varying degrees of happiness, I may as well add my own thoughts.

I enjoyed the hold. Yes, it wasn't particularly difficult, but the hold was designed more for newcomers than experienced smitemasters. Yes, the story was pretty silly and and could have been vastly improved, but as mrimer said elsewhere, this is a puzzle game. The emphasis is and should be on the gameplay, and in that light, I would say the hold is pretty much faultless from my point of view. I would have bought it had I not won it, and I'll continue to buy every future DROD and enjoy it.

However.. DROD 4 is not a hold. Each earlier major release was vastly different, going from the very original KDD and ending with TCB and its huge number of new elements, massive scripting capabilities and other features that turned a solely room-by-room puzzle game into a full-blown adventure. I am not an architect so I can't see the scripting improvements. I play the game for its puzzles so if there were new styles or music, I didn't notice them. Other than the combo counter, which is pointless, the only differences that I noticed were horns and shallow water. (Soldiers are just stalwarts in another colour - how they interact with shallow water makes shallow water the new thing, not the soldiers).

Shallow water and the way it interacts in new ways with some existing elements is excellent. I enjoyed the horns, though I wouldn't have been surprised if I were told they were just done by scripting, nothing new - they didn't really feel like they added a giant new puzzle mechanic.

Overall - while I'm sure a huge amount of work went into the new engine, my opinion is that GatEB would have been more suited towards a fantastic TCB hold. But there's not enough noticeable in the engine that makes me feel like this was a great DROD 4.

mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5064
Registered: 02-04-2003
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I completely agree with you TripleM. Erik was planning on labeling it 3.5 at the outset, and that revision would have been a fitting upgrade to the 3.3 engine, if you look at the numbers as how much changes. That made sense to us at the time, when development started about four years ago.

However, close to the end of development, we discussed just calling it 4.0. Not because it was a huge leap in the engine, but because it was the fourth main title in the DROD series. We thought about what would have happened when TSS rolled around, being the fifth game in the series, and that it would likely be confusing were we to call it 4.0. That wouldn't have made much sense to anyone reviewing the game, and DROD's evolution is complicated enough as it is. So we just decided to call this game DROD 4, and keep the engine number inline with the release number.

I'm planning that TSS will feature a large number of additions and enhancements to the game engine, and it should feel good to everyone that the climax to Beethro's story will feature a 5.0 engine.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

robin
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 842
Registered: 09-01-2004
IP: Logged

I was just thinking,

If GatEB is "so" easy, why are there so many help topics started?

(I don't need an answer for this one)

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