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Banjooie
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So where's Caravel's twitter account anyway amirite
08-31-2009 at 05:04 AM
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Jeff_Ray...
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13th slayer: I did remove it, but that was because I don't see the point to it.

I was planning to make a category page for the DROD games, but there's basically nothing to give to it yet...

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08-31-2009 at 11:15 AM
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Dr. Murphy
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Jeff_Ray... wrote:
I was planning to make a category page for the DROD games, but there's basically nothing to give to it yet...
There could also be some story (no major spoilers) added to it as well as the games themselves. A mention of the demo could be done too.
08-31-2009 at 01:23 PM
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Tahnan
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Dr. Murphy wrote:
There could also be some story (no major spoilers) added to it as well as the games themselves. A mention of the demo could be done too.
See, OK, this is more or less what I'm talking about. If you're filling in details of the Eighth, you're doing it for people who know the game; people who don't know the game won't care. If you mention the demo, you're doing it for people who don't know the game; people who know the game don't need to know about the demo.

Couldn't someone please set forth a list of actual goals for this project?
09-01-2009 at 12:15 AM
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CuriousShyRabbit
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People who already know about DROD also already know about this forum and come here. So I'd assume this project is aiming to attract new players, which would be a good goal.

Is that what wikis are commonly used for? I've never looked at anything on the linked Wikia site before. While I have read a few Wikipedia articles when looking for information, I've never used Wikipedia as a tool for finding a new game to play. Is that what "normal" people actually do? Do they search wiki sites for "puzzle games" and browse through all the articles that come up? (I ask because I'm not "normal".) If not, how would a potential DROD player happen to visit a DROD wiki site?
09-01-2009 at 06:36 AM
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Tahnan
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There're three different terms being thrown around at this point that should be distinguished: Wiki, Wikia, and Wikipedia.

"Wiki" is a generic term for a kind of software that allows users to edit content on web pages. Anyone who can set up a website can set up a wiki; indeed, for the MIT Mystery Hunt, my team uses wiki software to keep track of our progress, all of it set up on our own server.

"Wikipedia" is a particular website that implements wiki software for a particular purpose. They have nothing whatsoever to do with the discussion here.

"Wikia" is a different website that allows users to set up wikis for their own purposes, and provides them with a certain skeletal structure similar in design to Wikipedia's. That's where the DROD Wiki has been set up.

So people browsing Wikipedia aren't going to casually find themselves linked to the DROD wiki; they're two wholly separate systems. As far as I can tell, Wikia is at its best when it's being used as a place for thousands of fans to collaborate on an encyclopedic set of knowledge on a particular topic. I suspect the best known, and certainly best named, is Wookieepedia, which covers the Star Wars universe in far more detail than you even want to know exists. Others listed on the "featured" page include Harry Potter, Pro Wrestling, the Boston Celtics, GI Joe...actually, you can get a pretty good sense of what's there by going to their Most active and Largest lists. Again, they're things that have a lot of followers who need a central place to bring together all their information; fandoms, and also recipes, vintage sewing patterns, and so forth.

But again, the two crucial facts are (a) Wikia works best for things with lots of fans and lots of information, and (b) it's there as a reference for those fans. DROD has neither a lot of fans nor a lot of information. And no one goes to Wikia to say, "I'm looking for something new; let's see what's here"; they go when there's something in particular they need to know about a particular thing. (For instance, I've found myself there more than once when doing factchecking on puzzles; if there's a fact in a puzzle about Star Wars or Star Trek or the like and getting to the original source isn't practical, it's the pages edited by the serious fans that I'll trust the most.)

Now, if the DROD team wanted to turn drod.caravelnet.com into a wiki and let us update the information there (about the games, about the Eighth, and so forth), with certain protected pages, that'd make sense to me. For one thing, it'd keep DROD information in essentially one place; for another, they can maintain some creative control over it. But I feel like...oh, never mind, you know by now what I feel like.

Long story short: no, I don't think drod.wikia.com is going to attract new players.
09-01-2009 at 08:26 AM
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Fang
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadly_rooms_of_death
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Dugan%27s_Dungeon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caravel_DROD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_to_Rooted_Hold
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_City_Beneath
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DROD_RPG:_Tendry%27s_Tale

I read all those pages and learned quite a lot of stuff. For example, Erik once had the original game made by Webfoot Technologies, until he got permission to release the game as open source. So he did all the game from scratch, and it's now "Caravel DROD" so to say. Pretty impressive.

Edit: I went to search through http://www.webfootgames.com/index.php but I did not find DROD- they probably removed it. They're making other kinds of games now it seems.

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[Last edited by Fang at 09-01-2009 11:55 AM]
09-01-2009 at 11:53 AM
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Briareos
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Is it just me, or is the "Wikipedia" in the thread title bogus, seeing as this is about a wikia-hosted run-of-the-mill wiki?

np: CLP - Superconfidential ft. Tunde Olaniran (Supercontinental)

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09-01-2009 at 12:06 PM
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eb0ny
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I just remembered that we have the community site. Why not turn that into a wiki? This would make the available information less redundant (as it will be kept in one place instead of two) and it would allow for much needed new content. The site is great as it is and there are some interesting reads, but it isn't complete - not all monsters are described, not all mods are listed, nearly no info on DROD:RPG.

In other words, I think that wiki should be an extension of the community site, not its replacement.

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09-01-2009 at 01:47 PM
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13th Slayer
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eb0ny wrote:
I just remembered that we have the community site. Why not turn that into a wiki? This would make the available information less redundant (as it will be kept in one place instead of two) and it would allow for much needed new content. The site is great as it is and there are some interesting reads, but it isn't complete - not all monsters are described, not all mods are listed, nearly no info on DROD:RPG.

In other words, I think that wiki should be an extension of the community site, not its replacement.
t_z wrote: Instead, how about turning the official DROD community website (previously and still linked from DROD.net) into a wiki? Lots of companies are hosting wikis for their own products these days, and it is a great way to get community involvement in maintaining the site.
:| Some people think the same. I responded to that already. I can't control the community site, you know, it has editors, who, however, have forgotten about it.
09-01-2009 at 02:54 PM
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Rabscuttle
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I say trial run it on wikia first - if people are into it enough to make it work there, then transfer all the relevant stuff over here. If it doesn't work there, then I don't think it will fare much better here.

I do agree with Tahnan that some structure would be beneficial.
09-01-2009 at 03:08 PM
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jbluestein
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13th Slayer wrote:
t_z wrote: Instead, how about turning the official DROD community website (previously and still linked from DROD.net) into a wiki? Lots of companies are hosting wikis for their own products these days, and it is a great way to get community involvement in maintaining the site.
:| Some people think the same. I responded to that already. I can't control the community site, you know, it has editors, who, however, have forgotten about it.

It seems to me that if there already exists a community website, maybe the right thing to do is to figure out how to update it more effectively. If Ezlo is no longer actively maintaining the site, he might well be amenable to handing over control to someone else. A Wiki of some sort for DROD could have a trial run on Wikia and then be moved over or linked to from the main community site if it demonstrates any value.

Josh

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09-01-2009 at 03:32 PM
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Jatopian
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Fang wrote:
I read all those pages and learned quite a lot of stuff. For example, Erik once had the original game made by Webfoot Technologies, until he got permission to release the game as open source. So he did all the game from scratch, and it's now "Caravel DROD" so to say. Pretty impressive.
Yeah, but you only learned on the wiki because you took the time to go through the wiki looking for things to justify its existence. This information, as well as everything else you linked to, has been on the main site forever; you could have found it there if you'd done the same thing to it. What this says to me is that the wiki will be good for as long as it's still shiny and new - maybe a month.

What we really need is people to do the existing work of updating the site, and if we have no one now we could probably cultivate someone by bringing in new people to the community, and it all really comes back to TCB should have been advertised more (i.e. advertised at all).

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[Last edited by Jatopian at 09-01-2009 10:55 PM]
09-01-2009 at 10:54 PM
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AtkinsSJ
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I do think, for a lot of things, a wiki can work better than having topics and posts scattered across the forum, and caravelgames.com. The forum is very difficult to search, and since it's a discussion, any information you might be looking for will be split up into different posts scattered throughout several forum threads.

I've seen recently a wiki I was part of collapse in on itself, because there was very little contained in it of value. Wikipedia has stuck people in a mindset of 'this is what a wiki is' - but wikis don't have to be formal encyclopaedias.

I think things that could be useful there are things like the Master List of Projects, and other things that need regular editing, and possibly the Illuminations. Otherwise, admittedly, I can't think of anything. It does need good reasons to exist, otherwise it'll just die.
09-02-2009 at 12:06 AM
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Banjooie
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So apparently Wikia will continually override your custom layouts among other things.

Also, Wikia claims ownership of any information you put on there. So, uh, stop it, guys.
09-02-2009 at 12:53 AM
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Jatopian
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uh-oh

Claims ownership in what way, specifically?

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09-02-2009 at 03:22 AM
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noma
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Hmm. After reading over their policy pages I couldn't find anything that specifically said Wikia "owned" content posted on their site (though it could have been buried in the legalese, I suppose), but there are some things users should be aware of:

From their Licensing page you learn Wikia abides by the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike License 3.0, which basically means that anything you post there can be used for any purpose, as long as it is distributed under the same license and attribution is given.

A quote from the Creation policy page: "Text on Wikia sites is available under a free content licence, meaning the information you put on the wiki can be copied and reused by anyone."

And from their Terms of use page the pertinent line is probably "When you post content on the Site, you authorize and direct us to make such copies thereof as we deem necessary in order to facilitate the posting and storage of the content on the Site." Which also says nothing about ownership, only use.

Though these policies all make sense given the nature of a wiki, some might not want to post their own content under these conditions.
09-02-2009 at 04:31 AM
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Banjooie
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Well, I'm going off of a wiki where my friends wanted to /take down/ stuff on their wiki and Wikia said no, as they now controlled that information.


09-02-2009 at 07:13 AM
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13th Slayer
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noma wrote:
Hmm. After reading over their policy pages I couldn't find anything that specifically said Wikia "owned" content posted on their site (though it could have been buried in the legalese, I suppose), but there are some things users should be aware of:

From their Licensing page you learn Wikia abides by the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike License 3.0, which basically means that anything you post there can be used for any purpose, as long as it is distributed under the same license and attribution is given.

A quote from the Creation policy page: "Text on Wikia sites is available under a free content licence, meaning the information you put on the wiki can be copied and reused by anyone."

And from their Terms of use page the pertinent line is probably "When you post content on the Site, you authorize and direct us to make such copies thereof as we deem necessary in order to facilitate the posting and storage of the content on the Site." Which also says nothing about ownership, only use.

Though these policies all make sense given the nature of a wiki, some might not want to post their own content under these conditions.
/me has nothing against all that listed.
09-02-2009 at 01:30 PM
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Jatopian
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Banjooie wrote:
Well, I'm going off of a wiki where my friends wanted to /take down/ stuff on their wiki and Wikia said no, as they now controlled that information.
So... it stayed in the page history, or...?

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09-02-2009 at 03:50 PM
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noma
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A link to their ownership policies.

Basically, if you post content on their site (or any site that operates under the Creative Commons Attribution Share Alike license,) you give up sole ownership of that content. It now belongs to the "community" which can use it as outlined by the CCASA license. If someone wants to delete something, the administrators for a particular wiki (not Wikia admins, as I understand it) can decide not to allow it. Which makes absolute sense, given how these things work.

Bottom line: user beware. It's really just common sense: don't go posting your latest invention or budding novel or irrational opinions, or, for that matter, anything for which you want to retain control and copyrights, on a public website like Wikia or Wikipedia, etc.
09-02-2009 at 06:16 PM
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Banjooie
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Well, no, my friends who were /adminning a wiki/ were told by Wikia that they couldn't do that.
09-03-2009 at 07:00 AM
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noma
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Wasn't saying they weren't. I did notice you wrote it was "their wiki." I'm just reporting what their /policy/ is for those here who don't feel like clicking a few links. But I guess since Wikia is the "meta-admin" for all the wikis on their site, their actions are flawlessly consistent with their policy. As I wrote: "user beware" blah blah internet blah blah public.
09-03-2009 at 01:51 PM
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