agaricus5
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Edit: This conversation continues a side-topic discussion about composition, which was originally started here.

Edit 2: If you're wondering what we're talking about, you can find my DROD Scores here.

Sorry I'm taking up so many threads up here, but I thought that it would be best to continue any composition-related conversation in this thread:

Kwakstur wrote in this thread:
Your music reminds me more of Final Fantasy (and, at some point in Score 7, Touhou) than DROD, but I still like it. And I actually haven't yet played the exact game that inspired it (Webfoot DROD), so I can't say there's no resemblance.

Heh. "Inspiration" is a very relative term here. I don't know if any of my music could be said to resemble DROD music because I didn't compose most of it with that in mind.

I think the "inspiration" came from two more obscure sources: being able to see transcripts of the original Webfoot music (they were all .mid files) and the fact that I really liked the level 8 music, wich was in D-flat major. I am a bit strange in that I seem to like keys with lots of accidentals.

I called the pieces DROD Scores, primarily because DROD was the primary inspiration, and "score" because I used a notation program (Sibelius) to write the music itself. I guess I have kept the name as a tribute to DROD, since I doubt I would ever have started writing music like this if I hadn't played DROD.

Lately, I have been working on some music inspired mostly by TCB and somewhat by JtRH. But at only 12 measures, it's FAR from complete, and the instrumentation right now is questionable. But I thought I'd share it in response to yours.

That's pretty cool; I can see how your segment is closer to DROD music as it is than my DROD Scores, and I think it definitely has potential.

Click here to view the secret text

×Part of my problem is that, although I can definitely compose catchy themes, I want to make sure that the one I use is fully original with no clear inspiration. But I'm too self-critical on that aspect; if it hits any cliche I recognize, I scrap it. And if my next idea sucks too much, I scrap that. I'm stuck here because this is where I need to introduce the theme to have recurring throughout the song, and I reject all of my own ideas.

In reality, all of DROD TCB's themes hit several cliches, despite how unique they are. I should ease up on that criterion and just pick a good one I rejected and use it already.

That's interesting. I find the opposite is true for me; I can elaborate well on a single theme if it has a solid foundation, but I find it hard to come up with new themes and tunes.

I would say that "cliché" is also a relative term. I don't think having a frequently used set of notes is a problem; as long as the music has the effect you intended, it should be fine. I'm sure much of my music contains stuff that isn't exactly innovative, but as long as it makes people happy, I don't think it's a problem.

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[Last edited by agaricus5 at 02-07-2009 04:55 PM]

Banjooie
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Cliche.

Trope.

Different things.

Jatopian
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whoa, missed this thread. Why is this necessary? Why can't you edit links into your OP like everyone else?

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agaricus5
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Jatopian wrote:
whoa, missed this thread. Why is this necessary? Why can't you edit links into your OP like everyone else?

Huh? I'm confused. What do you mean by "OP"?

In any case, I accept that the link is not incredibly obvious (it's contained by the words "Kwakstur wrote in this thread"), so to avoid further confusion, I'll add another one, more obviously nearer the top.

I separated the threads because I thought a DROD Score/composition discussion was a bit off-topic for a thread whose main focus is to tell me what DRODistic things I have been missing.

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Jatopian
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agaricus5 wrote:

Jatopian wrote:
whoa, missed this thread. Why is this necessary? Why can't you edit links into your OP like everyone else?

Huh? I'm confused. What do you mean by "OP"?

In any case, I accept that the link is not incredibly obvious (it's contained by the words "Kwakstur wrote in this thread"), so to avoid further confusion, I'll add another one, more obviously nearer the top.

I separated the threads because I thought a DROD Score/composition discussion was a bit off-topic for a thread whose main focus is to tell me what DRODistic things I have been missing.

I fail to see why you would assume that and not this.

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agaricus5
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Jatopian wrote:
I fail to see why you would assume that and not this.

Whoa there! Please don't eat me!

I am now more confused than ever:

whoa, missed this thread. Why is this necessary? Why can't you edit links into your OP like everyone else?

Why is what necessary? Me making you miss this thread? Not making my link to the old conversation obvious? Sparating the conversation, even?

Your new post is as vague: what assumption are you referring to? I assume that given where the link goes, it's that I didn't link the DROD Score thread to this one. Or is it something else?

I'm also confused why you seem to be angry at me. Have I mistakenly upset you in any way?

Edit: Okay, I know. Let's go and link everything properly now: Hard hats on!

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[Last edited by agaricus5 at 02-07-2009 04:53 PM]

RoboBob3000
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Don't worry about it, this is Jatopian's new shtick. He just considers the forum to be at its most pleasant when it's operated as a police state.

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[Last edited by RoboBob3000 at 02-07-2009 07:09 PM]

Jatopian
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RoboBob, shut up. That's completely baseless.

agraricus, I meant: Why is it necessary to have discussion about your "DROD scores" in a separate thread from the "DROD scores" thread? Also, I'm really not angry at all.

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agaricus5
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Jatopian wrote:
agraricus, I meant: Why is it necessary to have discussion about your "DROD scores" in a separate thread from the "DROD scores" thread?

The reason originally was that if I want to add more Scores, they'll get lost in the discussion (as they did last time with Emmett and the end of the universe).

Now that you mention it, however, that's not a bad idea at all. I can link to the attachments and message IDs directly in the first post, can't I (I seem to have forgotten the Forum code!)?

Hmm...

Yeah, why not? I'll ask Schik if he will let me transfer over this thread's posts to the DROD score thread.

Also, I'm really not angry at all.

Okay, I accept you're not angry, although perhaps that last comment could have been a bit more diplomatic.

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Kwakstur
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I worked more on it today. And I looked again through TCB's music... my inspiration is really just City's music, especially that for battle. The other styles' music does not fit a lot of my earlier generalizations.

I set most of the tracks up to use a more authentic VSTi, so the instrumentation has improved greatly.

Also... look at the name...


The theme I chose is versatile but not very catchy. This is thing common in City's music; there often is a recurring theme, but for a lot of the song it isn't the focal point. The theme is really just to tie the whole song together.

It is at (0:34 to 0:54). It will be more prominent in later sections than it is here.

About the thing at (0:58)

Progress:
First secion (00:00 to 1:05) is complete. It is not necessarily final, but I'm satisfied enough to move on.
Section 1-2 transition (1:05 to 1:26) is just a rough draft. I know it's a mess right now (especially with the timing of the bells), and the final version will sound almost NOTHING like this. I'm trying for the Twilight realm sound in Twilight Princess.


Feedback is appreciated. For instance, if there is something in it that really bugs you, please tell me so that I can make it stop grating on your ears.


I am having a hard time imagining hearing this music while playing DROD. But I remember that the same held true for most of TCB's music when I first heard it and stopped to listen.


Edit: I spent more time on typing this than I thought. Apparently we just decided to move posts to the other thread. Huh.

Well, I think this is better off here in an otherwise dead thread than in a thread specifically for your music.

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[Last edited by Kwakstur at 02-08-2009 04:20 AM]

agaricus5
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Kwakstur wrote:
I worked more on it today. And I looked again through TCB's music... my inspiration is really just City's music, especially that for battle. The other styles' music does not fit a lot of my earlier generalizations.

I wonder if I should get hold of similar software to the type you are currently using. Currently, I must write each note individually (or at least all individual bars), which is good for detail, bad for minimalism. I am also rubbish at writing bass lines and percussion rhythms by hand.

The theme I chose is versatile but not very catchy. This is thing common in City's music; there often is a recurring theme, but for a lot of the song it isn't the focal point. The theme is really just to tie the whole song together.

I have a strange suggestion, but do you think it might be something to do with the frequency responses of the music in that part? I mean, have a look at this picture (time near 0:45):



There is a lot of bass and low frequency (<500 Hz) but comparatively less between 1-3kHz, which corresponds to the average human voice frequency. We're generally most sensitive to frequencies in this region (by at least 10 dB), so perhaps if you changed the instrumentation to use instruments with frequencies in this region, it might be more obvious or catchy.

About the thing at (0:58)

Click here to view the secret text

×I couldn't resist putting a hook in the song, so that's what that is.

A "hook"? Remind me again what that is (I haven't studied music theory for quite some time!).

Click here to view the secret text

×I'm not sure if I should keep it in as a hook. You see, I don't want it to take focus away from the composition as a whole, something I am putting a lot of effort into for this song.

I guess only time will tell.

Isn't it a part of your composition? I would have thought it should complement the music you already have, rather than detract from it.

Feedback is appreciated. For instance, if there is something in it that really bugs you, please tell me so that I can make it stop grating on your ears.

Well, here's my (as inoffensive as possible) £0.02:

I have to admit that I'm not really a fan of this kind of music. It's definitely a solid start, but it just doesn't feel like it is "going" anywhere musically to me in terms of tune development; you've started to develop something by 0:30, but by 1:00, it's completely finished.

I'm also not too keen on the key/accidentals you've used, but then again, that's probably a personal preference. I tend to prefer music with more pleasant-sounding cadences (as you might have guessed).

But, in spite of what I have just said, I don't really write DRODistic music (I guess I haven't figured out how to yet), so I'm probably not qualified to speak on this subject. If you're aiming for TCB-type music as opposed to perhaps something more conventional/classical, then I'd say it's a good start. As long as it does what you want it to do, I'd say, "go for it!"

I am having a hard time imagining hearing this music while playing DROD. But I remember that the same held true for most of TCB's music when I first heard it and stopped to listen.

I have to admit I turn the music off when I don my architect's hard hat. It's just too unsettling/grating (especially the neutral music) for me to listen to constantly for more than 1 hour.

Edit: I spent more time on typing this than I thought. Apparently we just decided to move posts to the other thread. Huh.

I asked Schik to move it, but it may not happen for a while. If you post here until it is moved, we can keep the conversation in mostly the right order.

Edit: Actually, if we're going to discuss your (and anyone else's) music as well, maybe it's better to keep it all here.

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[Last edited by agaricus5 at 02-08-2009 02:29 AM]

Kwakstur
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agaricus5 wrote: I wonder if I should get hold of similar software to the type you are currently using. Currently, I must write each note individually (or at least all individual bars), which is good for detail, bad for minimalism. I am also rubbish at writing bass lines and percussion rhythms by hand.

Sounds a lot to me like mine.That description applies to just about any MIDI software (except for Band-in-a-Box, a program that automatically generates music. I guess it's for really lazy people or something.).

I have to admit that I'm not really a fan of this kind of music. It's definitely a solid start, but it just doesn't feel like it is "going" anywhere musically to me in terms of tune development; you've started to develop something by 0:30, but by 1:00, it's completely finished.

tl,dr version of what I used to have here:
The long buildup is an after effect of a way I had to write music for a class called Music Tech last year, and I can't seem to get back into the loop of things now that I finally have the resources to compose.

I probably should lengthen this section or make it build faster, though. You're right:

I have this     I should have this
  /\              ______
 /  |            /      \
/   |           /        |

Stuff about frequencies

I'm going to keep it that way for now. I intentionally kept it from becoming too prominent at this point. I forgot why exactly. It had something to do with the next section.

A "hook"? Remind me again what that is (I haven't studied music theory for quite some time!).

A short phrase that is very catchy and memorable by nature. They're called hooks because they pull you in to the song.

While a hook makes most people pay more attention to the song as a whole, sometimes a hook can command too much attention from certain people. In a song where I constantly have background instruments coming in and out (something I never did before Music Tech), I would much rather the listener focus on those dynamics.

I have to admit I turn the music off when I don my architect's hard hat...

I have to agree, especially in TCB. The Ambient music (played in the level editor and cleared rooms) is spookey in City and just painful to listen to in the other two styles.
But for me, it's either listen to that, find a game with more fitting music and a sound test, or build in silence.

Building to just about any shopping music from The Sims is a very interesting experience.

(Darn, I had to get rid of the pristine unedited-yet-still-with-an-embedded-image form of this post due to an oversight in one paragraph)

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[Last edited by Kwakstur at 02-08-2009 04:28 AM]