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zex20913
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icon 1=.9999999... (+2)  
Carried over from here,
we tackle the somewhat confusing fact that 1=.99999...(the nines go on forever.)

There are a variety of ways to prove this. Geometric sequences, averages, limits, sums, Dedekind cuts, and so on.

The way I think of it is that "every two distinct real numbers MUST have a different real number between them." (A trait called "density", or "being dense"). Just go ahead and try to find me a number between 1 and .9999999... . There is a proof from this method, but it's case-based, and a bit of a mess.

One way to show it, though (not really a proof, and I abuse notation, but it just requires some basic algebra) is as follows:
    x= .9999999...
-(10x=9.9999999...)
  -9x=-9
    x=1


Kinda cool. Since the number goes on forever, multiplying it by ten doesn't change the part after the decimal point.

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01-25-2008 at 01:43 AM
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ErikH2000
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icon Re: 1=.9999999... (0)  
How do you represent the highest possible real number that does not exceed or equal 1?

EDIT: Corrected a small but important mistake in wording above.

-Erik

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[Last edited by ErikH2000 at 01-25-2008 01:54 AM]
01-25-2008 at 01:54 AM
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Sillyman
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icon Re: 1=.9999999... (0)  
Um.... you don't. It just doesn't work that way.

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01-25-2008 at 01:56 AM
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Jatopian
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icon Re: 1=.9999999... (+1)  
I say it's witchcraft and we should burn all the mathematics textbooks.

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01-25-2008 at 01:57 AM
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ErikH2000
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icon Re: 1=.9999999... (0)  
Sillyman wrote:
Um.... you don't. It just doesn't work that way.
Fine, then define "it" in your sentence.

-Erik

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01-25-2008 at 02:03 AM
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zex20913
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icon Re: 1=.9999999... (0)  
I say you can't, except by using that phrasing (which doesn't get a number). For any rational number you give me, I can change one of those ending zeroes to a 1 and get closer to 1.

For any irrational number not equal to one, I can change one of the non-nine digits to a 9, and get closer (or possibly equal to) 1.

Your question is sort of like asking "What is the biggest real number?". For any real number you give me, I can find one bigger. (either by adding one or multiplying by some constant, or even giving it an exponent.)

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01-25-2008 at 02:06 AM
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ErikH2000
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icon Re: 1=.9999999... (0)  
zex20913 wrote:
I say you can't, except by using that phrasing (which doesn't get a number). For any rational number you give me, I can change one of those ending zeroes to a 1 and get closer to 1.
Okay. I just always thought that's what .9 + overscore meant.

And also 1/infinity = 0 ?
Your question is sort of like asking "What is the biggest real number?".
That's what I was going to ask next! Do you know what it is? I think eventually it just wraps around to the smallest number. ;)

-Erik

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01-25-2008 at 02:15 AM
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NiroZ
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icon Re: 1=.9999999... (0)  
You mean its like saying 'Find the closest real number to Tan 90?'
01-25-2008 at 02:15 AM
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zex20913
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icon Re: 1=.9999999... (+2)  
ErikH2000 wrote:

That's what I was going to ask next! Do you know what it is? I think eventually it just wraps around to the smallest number. ;)

-Erik

That's because you work with computers, and they have integer overflow errors. :P

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01-25-2008 at 02:17 AM
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icon Re: 1=.9999999... (0)  
Infinity isn't a real number. But you can add it to the reals if you like, and make it a loop even. But then it's not the real numbers, it's something else.

[Last edited by Rabscuttle at 01-25-2008 02:20 AM]
01-25-2008 at 02:18 AM
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ErikH2000
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icon Re: 1=.9999999... (+3)  
zex20913 wrote:
That's because you work with computers, and they have integer overflow errors. :P
That would explain why this program I wrote to find the biggest number has given me such strange behavior.

void findTheBiggestNumber(void) {
  int theBiggestNumberSoFar = 0, maybeEvenBiggerNumber;

  while(1) {
    printf("Calculating a new candidate for biggest number...\r\n");
    maybeEvenBiggerNumber = theBiggestNumberSoFar + 1;

    if (maybeEvenBiggerNumber > theBiggestNumberSoFar) {
      theBiggestNumberSoFar = maybeEvenBiggerNumber;
      printf("I have discovered a new biggest number! It is %d.\r\n", theBiggestNumberSoFar);
    } else {
      printf("The computer broke again.\r\n");
      return;
    }
  }
}


-Erik

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01-25-2008 at 02:40 AM
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zex20913
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icon Re: 1=.9999999... (0)  
Nuntar wrote:
zex20913 wrote:
For any rational number you give me, I can change one of those ending zeroes to a 1 and get closer to 1.
Nitpick: you mean terminating decimal (a number whose decimal fraction part ends in an infinite string of zeroes). Not all rational numbers are terminating; for instance 1/3 = 0.333333......

True indeed. I misspoke. For some reason, when I think "rational number", I don't automatically think "fraction", but I think of a terminating decimal.

The idea still stands though--for any rational (in fraction form), multiply by 2/2 (yes, that is one) and add one to the numerator. That gets you a number closer to one.

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01-25-2008 at 03:25 AM
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Znirk
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icon Re: 1=.9999999... (+1)  
Here's a pattern analogy based non-proof that IME works well on mathematically challenged people like myself.

1/9 = .11111111etcetera.
2/9 = .22222222etcetera.
3/9 = .33333333etcetera.
4/9 = .44444444etcetera.
.
.
.
7/9 = .77777777etcetera.
8/9 = .88888888etcetera.

Guess what .9999999etcetra stands for. (Hint: what's 1/9 + 8/9?)
01-25-2008 at 10:15 AM
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Alneyan
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icon Re: 1=.9999999... (0)  
zex20913 wrote:
That's because you work with computers, and they have integer overflow errors. :P

Ah, but that's not specific to computers. You could certainly work with modular arithmetic in maths too, and experience the joy of overflows and underflows.

Now, trying to represent mind-defying huge numbers on a computer with its finite memory and storage, that's something else altogether. Still, I guess you could define the 'biggest integer' as 'the biggest bloody integer that can be represented on a computer with n bits available'... but it's either boring (if you only allow figures), or potentially undecidable, if you allow all the standard operations.

[Last edited by Alneyan at 01-25-2008 10:48 AM]
01-25-2008 at 10:45 AM
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Pekka
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icon Re: 1=.9999999... (+2)  
Once upon a time an amateur mathematician tried to argue with his stubborn friend, who didn't accept that 0.9999.. is equal to one. He used the following argument.

Suppose that x = 0.9999... and y = 1, and these are not equal to each other. Then their average (x+y)/2 must be strictly larger than x and strictly less than y. Now, what would be the decimal expansion of this beast? Now I've got you. Ha ha!

But the friend was not stumped. "It isn't all nines of course. There are some tens mixed in, like so: ...9999109991099999910109..."

:P
01-25-2008 at 11:00 AM
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skell
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icon Re: 1=.9999999... (0)  
0.99999... = 1-1/Infinity = 1-0 = 1

That sounds reasonable. Hence 0.9999... is Almost-almost-just-here-but-still-not-yet-but-completely-almost 1 (And still even closer to it), so in other words, we have infinite number of Nines there. Infinite. As far as I can tell, Infinity has not much to do with real numbers ^^.

Isn't it just obvious?

Also, look at a number like this: 0.999...999 Let's say there is one hundred Nines there. Now, one Atom is like 31 Picometers in diameter.
So, it is: 31*(10^-12)
And our number is 1-(10^-100)

You see my point? Let's say we have one Atom of normal size, and next to it another atom of the same size multiplied by our 0.999...999 - the difference will be so insignificant that it makes no difference.
Now let's say we have million of Nines. Milliards of millions of nines. Googolplexes of nines. The difference would be even smaller, and smaller... Now what if the have infinite number of Nines? (I think I got a bit chaotic here ^^;)

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01-25-2008 at 11:03 AM
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Maurog
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icon Re: 1=.9999999... (+2)  
Let's define a function f(n) as follows:
f(1) = 0.9
f(2) = 0.99
f(3) = 0.999

Now, technically, f(infinity) is 0.999... Also, we all agree that the bigger the n the closer f(n) is to 1, right?

Lemma 1: When we have two real numbers A and B, there are only two options - either there are infinite other real numbers between them, starting with (A+B)/2 or there are zero real numbers between them, in the case of A=B.

Let there be a real number A between 0 and 1 different from 0.999... depicted by its decimals A=0.a1a2a3a4... Let am be the first decimal of A that isn't 9. It's easy to see that f(m) is closer to 1 than A, therefore 0.999... is closer to 1 than A.

We just proved that there is no real number between 0 and 1 that's closer to 1 than 0.999... according to lemma 1, this means they are one and the same. 1 = .999...

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[Last edited by Maurog at 01-25-2008 12:28 PM]
01-25-2008 at 12:13 PM
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icon Re: 1=.9999999... (0)  
Whee. A lovely collection of proofs you have here.

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01-25-2008 at 09:14 PM
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Sillyman wrote:
Whee. A lovely collection of proofs you have here.
Wouldn't it be a shame if something were to happen to it...?

*manical laughter*

np: Autechre - Rsdio (Tri Repetae)

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01-25-2008 at 11:09 PM
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icon Re: 1=.9999999... (0)  
*makes 10000 backups*

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01-25-2008 at 11:50 PM
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coppro
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icon Re: 1=.9999999... (+2)  
*makes 9999.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999... backups*

[Last edited by coppro at 01-26-2008 12:00 AM]
01-26-2008 at 12:00 AM
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robin
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icon Re: 1=.9999999... (0)  
Here is an other one:

1 = 1,00... = 0,99...
so,
take: x = 0,99...
then: 10x = 9,99...
then: 10x - x = 9,99... - 0,99... (x=0,99...)
then: 9x = 9
then: x = 1
:thumbsup

EDIT: it's the same as the first one, but a little bit different typed. :blush

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01-28-2008 at 09:14 PM
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Syntax
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robin wrote:
Here is an other one:

1 = 1,00... = 0,99...
so,
take: x = 0,99...
then: 10x = 9,99...
then: 10x - x = 9,99... - 0,99... (x=0,99...)
then: 9x = 9
then: x = 1
:thumbsup

EDIT: it's the same as the first one, but a little bit different typed. :blush
Well, you based it on the assumption that 0.99... = 1.00... so no wonder you got to that conclusion.
01-29-2008 at 03:54 AM
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Syntax wrote:
robin wrote:
Here is an other one:

1 = 1,00... = 0,99...
so,
take: x = 0,99...
then: 10x = 9,99...
then: 10x - x = 9,99... - 0,99... (x=0,99...)
then: 9x = 9
then: x = 1
:thumbsup

EDIT: it's the same as the first one, but a little bit different typed. :blush
Well, you based it on the assumption that 0.99... = 1.00... so no wonder you got to that conclusion.

Not really, he just stated his hypothesis of 1=.999 and then followed through with the standard 10x=9.999 proof. He just forgot to specify it was a hypothesis.

Here's a more interesting challenge, I think: Prove that 0.499999... = 0.5 in a similar way.

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01-29-2008 at 03:38 PM
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skell
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icon Re: 1=.9999999... (+1)  
0.499999... = 0.5

x=0.499...
10x=4.999...
9x=4.999...-0.4999...
9x=4.5
x=0.5

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01-29-2008 at 03:43 PM
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DiMono
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...I was wrong, that wasn't more interesting at all.

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01-29-2008 at 03:47 PM
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skell
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Then what is 0.(123456789) equal to? As far as I can remember, putting part of fractional part means that this thing repeats forever. So it would be 0.123456789123456789123456... And so on.

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01-29-2008 at 05:27 PM
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DiMono
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That would end up being 123456789/999999999, which according to my calculator is 0.(123456789) again.

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01-29-2008 at 05:42 PM
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Syntax
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DiMono wrote:
...I was wrong, that wasn't more interesting at all.
Brilliant :lol
01-29-2008 at 06:13 PM
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icon Re: 1=.9999999... (+1)  
zex20913 wrote:
    x= .9999999...
-(10x=9.9999999...)
  -9x=-9
    x=1
That proof, which has become almost standard for this topic, is based on a fallacy. When it comes to infinity, there are some things that you just can’t do. Infinity isn’t actually a number, it’s a concept; and therefore the algebraic rules do not hold. There are also many different infinities, and some are bigger than others.

Take for example the set of all positive real numbers ( R⁺ ) and the set of all positive integers ( Z⁺ ). There are infinitely more real numbers than there are integers. Without a formal proof, you can tell that this is true because for any positive integer x, there is a positive real number 0.x
 ∀x ∈ Z⁺  ∃ y ∈ R⁺ s.t. y = 0.x 

This means that if you were “counting” along both the real and integer number lines, by the time you have “counted” to infinity on the integers, you would not have even reached 1 on the reals.

This means, that while we use infinity in equations, we don’t actually know what number it is. All of the following are conceptually true.
  ∞ + ∞ = ∞
( ∞ +/- x = ∞ ) ∀x ∈ R⁺ 
  ∞ ⋅ ∞ = ∞
 -∞ ⋅ -∞ = ∞ 

What we can not do is:
∞ - ∞ = 0

That doesn’t equal 0, it is indeterminate.

In the above given “proof,” the subtraction of 0.9999~ from 9.9999~ does not equal 9. That would require a one to one correlation between each and every decimal. That is indeterminate.


01-29-2008 at 06:29 PM
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