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Rheb
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icon Search for posts. (+1)  
When you use the Search engine, or search for posts made by a certain member, you always get all posts in every single topic. If you for example search for "Slayer" you'll get 35 pages of posts to look through, and then it's very hard to find the certain topic, you're looking for. I think it would be very good if you could set to "search for topics", since it's often quite easy to find all posts in a topic once you've found the topic ;)

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12-09-2007 at 08:30 PM
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Tahnan
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icon Re: Search for posts. (+1)  
Apologies for bumping this, but given that the last two feature requests were for previously-requested things... See especially Syntax's comment that
If the search worked I would definitely demand new players using it but "snake" + feature request board = nearly 440 hits. Without a regexp match functionality, it's understandable that certain ideas get recycled.
There's a whole lot in the site search that could use improvement. Couple the lack of what Rheb suggests, i.e. the ability to get the topic without all the replies, with the fact that searching on "word1 word2" in fact searches for that substring, rather than searching for posts containing both word1 and word2.... (Literally "substring". Try typing tain memb into the search page, and you'll get Rheb's post above, because it contains the phrase "by a certain member". That's...a little bizarre, really.)

There might be other requests for the site search to be improved, but, well, I'm not sure I want to figure out how to search for them. Any chance of an overhaul?
05-03-2009 at 11:23 PM
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TripleM
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You're right, this has been mentioned many many times; then someone says it's been mentioned many many times, then someone says how could I know as I couldn't really search for them.. ;)

Schik did try changing how it worked a few years ago but it ended up completely breaking so he reverted back. The scenario since then has been 'If I can find a way to improve it, I will; any ideas how?'.

Nobody has had any ideas.

[edit] Perhaps if Schik posted the current search.php file people would be more able to think of some though.. in an earlier thread Syntax found a much updated search.php which allowed for advanced search, but it was for a completely different version of the forum and wouldn't fit in. I'd be interested in seeing the current one to see if it could be improved.

[Last edited by TripleM at 05-04-2009 12:03 AM]
05-04-2009 at 12:00 AM
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Tim
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It's wishful thinking that if you were given all the search possiblilities in the world, one would be able to find anything.

It's also interesting (sorry, can't find a better word) to see that people blaming the search engine not finding things instead of the real reason. If the search engine is to blame, why can other people find the things you can't, using the same engine?

As for feature request not being found, I'd suggest people using a better subjects. A subject name "Search for posts" is badly named if the request is only asking for a "display only one post in every found thread"-option. With unclear subjects, it's hard for people to search for earlier posts, even if you can use any search sentence.

Personally, the current engine works for 95% of the seraches _I_ need, so I'd rather see (for example) the RPG related stuff works first so that we all can benefit from it.

Finally, is there any problem of using Google to search this site? Somehow it does index this forum very well.

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05-04-2009 at 01:29 AM
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TripleM
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If I was new here and wanted to see if anyone had posted something about a snake which split into two, as in the most recent discussion about this, I would click on 'Search', choose 'Feature Requests', and type 'snake split two' or a few similar searches. This would work on almost every other forum I visit, but here there no would be no results - I'd find it very hard to find search results about that topic, even though all of the keywords will be in relevant posts.

True, some of the issues are due to people not searching in the first place. But the search algorithm is very poor, and nobody really disagrees with that.

Of course, you could use google, but when a forum has a search why would you? Searches suited directly towards the database will should be better than a google search, especially with the filter by forum. Adding "feature request" in quotes to a google search really doesn't help at all as the board name isn't indexed very well. And most people don't even know you can search a site like that, so unless you want to put a link on the search page saying "Don't use this, use google instead", the search definitely needs improving.
05-04-2009 at 02:21 AM
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Syntax
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icon Re: Search for posts. (0)  
The issue is that it's doing an exact match as opposed to counting spaces as AND. Back in 2007 I dissected the forum search code.

Turns out the original tForum code had been changed for some reason and reverting it could potentially break something so it was left as is.

[EDIT]

Just noticed TripleM's edit and the link above is what he was referring to. I agree with him that posting the current live search code would help getting it fixed.

[Last edited by Syntax at 05-04-2009 05:02 AM]
05-04-2009 at 04:55 AM
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skell
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Tim wrote:
It's also interesting (sorry, can't find a better word) to see that people blaming the search engine not finding things instead of the real reason. If the search engine is to blame, why can other people find the things you can't, using the same engine?

Perhaps they are not native English speakers or are not advanced enough in their... learning of English to be able to easily form a proper query?

Or maybe that's because they don't know what are they looking for? Searching for a "snake" in topic and finding "Green snake" is easy, but when things get more subtle it can be quite problematic. Yesterday I had this problem while trying to find some old topic. Now I can't remember what I was looking for unfortunately, nevertheless every keyword or query I could think of resulted in either none or 30 pages of entries and I tried a good couple of them. Perhaps it was my 5%, since I usually find what I am looking for... But I am pretty 'skilled' searcher while some of the newbies might not be.

Anyway, you have a valid point and you don't have a valid point, in my sincere opinion you are overestimating random people's qualifications (is that a good word?).

Oh, and I second what TripleM said too, just noticed that I somehow skipped his post :).

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05-04-2009 at 05:14 AM
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Tahnan
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Tim wrote:
It's wishful thinking that if you were given all the search possiblilities in the world, one would be able to find anything.

Yeah, well, I'm not asking for all the search possibilities in the world. I'm asking for something better than what is roughly the least useful.

It's also interesting (sorry, can't find a better word) to see that people blaming the search engine not finding things instead of the real reason. If the search engine is to blame, why can other people find the things you can't, using the same engine?

Pardon my bluntness, but that's a stupid argument, Tim. One might well say, "Other people do a fine job of drawing images in MS Paint, so why would you need Photoshop [or insert your other favorite graphics program here]?". Often, it's hard to find something unless you know the exact phrase the post used. For instance, I know that "Earthwyrms" have been proposed before, i.e. snakes that get cut in half when you attack them in the center. But since you can't search "snakes center" or "snakes middle" or whatever, how would you find the post? And if you can find it after several tries or by hitting on just the right combination, why not make it easier?

As for feature request not being found, I'd suggest people using a better subjects.

Um, yeah, whatever. If you're looking for serpents that can be cut in half, it doesn't matter if you title your post "New Snake Idea" or "Sea Serpents" or "Dividers" or, well, really anything other than "New Snake Idea: Cut In Half, Attack In Middle, Could Color Them Purple, Perhaps It's Not Worth Reading The Post Now".

Personally, the current engine works for 95% of the seraches _I_ need...
Congratulations. You have hit upon the single worst reason for rejecting a feature request one could possibly give.
05-04-2009 at 09:16 AM
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Banjooie
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I don't know. I prefer the search function as something you have to struggle to understand. You /wrest/ the secrets of how to plunder useful information from its deathly grip.

Google just doesn't give you that same sense of challenge.
05-04-2009 at 11:19 AM
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Schik
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TripleM wrote:
[edit] Perhaps if Schik posted the current search.php file people would be more able to think of some though..
Well, I don't think I'm going to post any forum code, but here's how the query is formed:
SELECT * FROM PostsTable WHERE User LIKE '%$user%' AND Subject LIKE '%$subject%' AND MessageBody LIKE '%$messageBody%' AND Board IN ($boardList)
At one point I started using MATCH() AGAINST(), but it wasn't well received and we reverted to the current system. I'm fine with making another stab at it some day - I agree that the current search is bad and needs to be replaced with something that sucks less.
Syntax wrote: The issue is that it's doing an exact match as opposed to counting spaces as AND. Back in 2007 I dissected the forum search code.

Turns out the original tForum code had been changed for some reason and reverting it could potentially break something so it was left as is.
You actually dissected some vastly different version of tForum than what we started with here - I have hardly changed the search code at all, and it didn't remotely resemble what you looked at.

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05-04-2009 at 03:55 PM
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skell
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Tim wrote:
(for example, the fact that Schik is currently busy with things that benefit us more.)

I can also tell you that there's no chance for "improvement" (at least in your sense) to the site if you don't specify what you want. Again, I'm no telepath (or a linguist), and I doubt that Schik is.

No one says "DO IT NOW!", not even "Do it soon". It's rather kind of "Could you look into it when you have some spare time?" though maybe I see it this way only because something is wrong with me.

As for your second statement, let me qoute Tahnan:
i.e. the ability to get the topic without all the replies,
and, (I'd like to treat it as a separate issue):
searching on "word1 word2" in fact searches for that substring, rather than searching for posts containing both word1 and word2.

Dunno why, but when I first read that post (containing the two quotes above) I saw these two ideas for improvement: "display as topics" and "smarter search which turns spaces into AND". Hey, maybe I am telepathic? :)

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05-04-2009 at 04:14 PM
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Tim
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skell wrote:
Dunno why, but when I first read that post (containing the two quotes above) I saw these two ideas for improvement: "display as topics" and "smarter search which turns spaces into AND". Hey, maybe I am telepathic? :)
Thanks. :) I was more fixed on those red words than the rest of his message. I still don't understand why he's using this thread for his second request though. As for the actual request, I still prefer to see the different post instead of one each thread. For example, if you've found that something is in the Guess the Screenshot thread it would still take a lot of time to find the correct posts.

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05-04-2009 at 04:32 PM
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skell
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Well, removing it completely wouldn't be a good idea, true. A check box would be a neat idea, I know some of the forum systems have such functionality (too bad the code cannot be just copy-pasted).

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05-04-2009 at 04:57 PM
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Syntax
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Schik wrote:
Well, I don't think I'm going to post any forum code, but here's how the query is formed:
SELECT * FROM PostsTable WHERE User LIKE '%$user%' AND Subject LIKE '%$subject%' AND MessageBody LIKE '%$messageBody%' AND Board IN ($boardList)
At one point I started using MATCH() AGAINST(), but it wasn't well received and we reverted to the current system. I'm fine with making another stab at it some day - I agree that the current search is bad and needs to be replaced with something that sucks less.
Did you use AGAINST(xxx IN BOOLEAN MODE)? Mysql's natural language search scoring by default tries to be too smart which is probably not what we want. BOOLEAN MODE allows exact matching and understands +, - and "s.

If that's not an option, you could recurse over the words (ie space seperated tokens) in PHP and build the query string.

green snakes

would become

SELECT * FROM PostsTable WHERE User LIKE '%$user%' AND Subject LIKE '%$subject%' AND (MessageBody LIKE '%$green%' AND MessageBody LIKE '%$snakes%') AND Board IN ($boardList)

This avoids Mysql's natural language scoring when using non-boolean MATCH() AGAINST() searching. If you first tokenise on "s, this would allow matching a sequence of words if the searcher wants to find a specific phrase.

Or am I missing a complexity?
05-04-2009 at 06:54 PM
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skell
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Or you could replace spaces with %'es., thus giving

green snake

'%green%snake%'

Or am I missing something?
I am, it retains the order of words. Nevermind me then.

Edit:
But that gives me idea on how to (more or less) easily display Only threads.
Once you have the Select results, you check if the user wants to search for posts or topics. If the former everything works as usual. If the latter:
1. Create an empty array.
2. Fetch the row, get the main topic's ID
3. Check against every existing item in the array if it isn't by any chance equal to this ID
4. If it evaluates true, then Continue.
5. If it evaluates false, add this ID to the end of the array.
6. Once you fetched all the rows all you need to do is display the threads list.

Easier said than done, I know, and it is so straightforward and obvious someone probably already came up with it. Nevertheless, it never hurts to suggest (unless you suggest a wrong person wrong thing, then it might hurt a lot).

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[Last edited by skell at 05-04-2009 07:15 PM]
05-04-2009 at 07:09 PM
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TripleM
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Well, you wouldn't really need to do that, you'd just select distinct TopicIDs in the SQL. The main tricky bit with that request is that it would involve changing the form/display code to allow a search by topics option + link to topics rather than an individual post.

But yes, splitting by words/quoted sections and matching each part individually really isn't hard at all in php. The only question comes down to making sure searching for something like 'the and but' doesn't completely tie up the database.

[Last edited by TripleM at 05-04-2009 10:58 PM]
05-04-2009 at 10:55 PM
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skell
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TripleM wrote:
Well, you wouldn't really need to do that, you'd just select distinct TopicIDs in the SQL. The main tricky bit with that request is that it would involve changing the form/display code to allow a search by topics option + link to topics rather than an individual post.

True, I am a bit rusty with MySQL and I never was anywhere near being a pro in the first place :).

TripleM wrote:
The only question comes down to making sure searching for something like 'the and but' doesn't completely tie up the database.

You can either make it so that 1-3 or 1-4 lettered words are removed from the query, or that a certain words are removed.

I don't really know how the whole search page looks, but I am betting that the odds are 4/5 that both of the changes aren't hard to change. What IS hard is to keep it compatible with the rest of the forum I suppose, since else Schik would have already did it.

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05-04-2009 at 11:06 PM
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Syntax
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MySQL's MATCH() AGAINST() already ignores words with 3 or less characters by default (though I think this is configurable).

I think using "IN BOOLEAN MODE" is the best option as long as each word is automatically prefixed by + (unless another modifier is present) so we avoid the natural language scoring.

[EDIT]

Besides, using full text-search means indexing individual words so wouldn't be that much slower. It would only restrict hits based on including words which the searcher probably doesn't want to restrict on.

Here's a good link explaining things

[Last edited by Syntax at 05-04-2009 11:40 PM]
05-04-2009 at 11:28 PM
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Tahnan
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skell wrote:
You can either make it so that 1-3 or 1-4 lettered words are removed from the query, or that a certain words are removed.
I'd strongly recommend the latter, not the former, unless you don't mind not being able to search for "tar", "mud", or "gel".
05-05-2009 at 06:20 AM
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NoahT
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Tahnan wrote:
skell wrote:
You can either make it so that 1-3 or 1-4 lettered words are removed from the query, or that a certain words are removed.
I'd strongly recommend the latter, not the former, unless you don't mind not being able to search for "tar", "mud", or "gel".
Yeah, I agree. It would probably be best if it were designed to ignore articles (and certain conjunctions as well). I could also see the addition of forms similar to those in Google Advanced Search being useful, in addition to the search posts/topics option being proposed here.

Also, as long as we're discussing reforming the search, I'd like to bring this back up.

-Noah

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[Last edited by NoahT at 05-05-2009 06:46 AM]
05-05-2009 at 06:44 AM
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NiroZ
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Ages ago I made a google custom search for this forum, that in addition to searching the forum also searches the fansite, but I can't find where I linked to. (The irony of searching for a search function?)
05-05-2009 at 07:36 AM
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agaricus5
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NiroZ wrote:
Ages ago I made a google custom search for this forum, that in addition to searching the forum also searches the fansite, but I can't find where I linked to. (The irony of searching for a search function?)
Using the Forum's search (for author = NiroZ, and message body = Google), I found this on page 2.

I would also like to see the Forum search updated; I use Google myself to find threads that the Forum cannot. If this would make a reasonable compromise until we can get the Forum search updated, then I would support your Google search being stickied.

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05-05-2009 at 11:12 AM
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Rheb
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(I think) What I actually meant with my post was that when searching you ought to have the ability to set "display all posts" or "display topics". This would not make a big difference, but if I were to guess I would think it's not too hard to manage for someone who knows these things. As oppose to changing the entire search engine. Well, I might be wrong, and in that case it's definitely not anything worth spending time on.

Edit: Just wanted to say that I also think a general improvement on the search engine would be great, especially for the newer members. Still, I'm not sure how much I understood of the parts where people tried to explain how complicated it was going to be to make the needed changes, so I'll stay quiet from now on.

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[Last edited by Rheb at 05-07-2009 10:10 PM]
05-07-2009 at 10:00 PM
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Tahnan
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OK, I admit, I semi-hijacked the thread; I probably should have started a new one and referred to yours. What happened was I'd started by intending to bump the request, and then realized there were a few other things I wanted to throw in as long as I was posting.

At any rate, yes, Rheb's clarification is what I thought he meant, and I think that (independent of any questions of overhauling) it's a good idea.
05-08-2009 at 12:33 AM
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NiroZ
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As I've suggested before, having a word filter just remove every instance of re: in a search should do the trick most of the time.
05-08-2009 at 12:34 AM
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