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Someone Else
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File: AppearAtAnywhere.txt (101.8 KB)
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Export your general use scripts here, as suggested by this thread. Simply select the script and press Ctrl-B to copy it, and then Ctrl-V to paste them into a reply. If you want to use a script, select it and press Ctrl-C, then in a character press Ctrl-Shift-B to paste it. I will try to keep all the scripts updated in this first thread, and therefore make it easy to access. It would probably be easier if everyone put theirs in the same format. I will also try to organize the scripts, maybe by author, or by type of function.

Also, if people want to put requests for scripts in this thread, I will attempt to make them.

I think that it would be appropriate to make anyone who wishes to put their scripts in the database agree to this, as calamarain so eloquently put it:
calamarain pretty much wrote:
"I, YOURNAME as copyright holder of these scripts give the people on the Caravelnet forum permission to edit and use them in their DROD hold and any derivative works thereof, provided I am given credit for their creation, in each and every work that they are used in."

I'll start it off with one of my own:

Author: Someone Else
Purpose: Determine the location of the player, and put it in two variables.
Click here to view the secret text


Author: Remlin
Purpose: Random Number Generator
Click here to view the secret text


Author: Skell
Purpose: Bouncers (enemies that move until they hit a wall, then change direction)
Click here to view the secret text


Author: Chaco
Purpose: Dumb Clockwise Movement
Click here to view the secret text


Author: RoboBob3000
Purpose: Make a character appear anywhere
This one is very long. To make it easier to copy, I have attached it to this post.

Author: Timo006
Purpose: Enter a name, up to 10 characters long
Click here to view the secret text

[Last edited by Someone Else at 03-29-2008 03:58 AM]
09-19-2007 at 08:13 AM
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Sillyman
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Hmm... Mr. Imer's suggestion was have subroutine features built into the game, and I suggested to allow exporting scripts as files. But if they're text files, scripts uploaded as text here might work. Anyways, that sort of script is exactly the thing one would want to put into a subroutine.

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09-19-2007 at 08:53 AM
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jbluestein
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 icon Re: Script database (0)  
For the record, I'd like to see this eventually become a sticky thread at the top of the Architecture thread, with an assortment of publicly usable (and useful) widgets that architects can add to their hold to solve various scripting problems that they have.

At the moment, there doesn't seem to be much enthusiasm for this idea, but I can't tell whether that's because there's not much enthusiasm, or because this thread has fallen low on the page.

So consider this a bump and a gesture of encouragement.

Thanks!
Josh

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09-28-2007 at 06:54 PM
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schep
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jbluestein wrote:
At the moment, there doesn't seem to be much enthusiasm for this idea, but I can't tell whether that's because there's not much enthusiasm, or because this thread has fallen low on the page.
I suspect this thread will get a lot more exciting after 3.2, assuming even half the ideas mrimer has hinted at actually get added.
09-29-2007 at 12:30 AM
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calamarain
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schep wrote:
I suspect this thread will get a lot more exciting after 3.2, assuming even half the ideas mrimer has hinted at actually get added.
Without a doubt. Once you can determine the player coordinates and your coordinates, then you can create a lot of interesting behaviour.

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09-29-2007 at 12:43 AM
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Someone Else
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You already can do that, it just take lots of code.
09-29-2007 at 01:12 AM
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Monkey
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 icon Re: Script database (+1)  
A pseudorandom number generator. Fairly simple. :)
Click here to view the secret text



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[Last edited by Monkey at 10-27-2007 06:34 PM]
10-27-2007 at 04:19 AM
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schep
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Generates random numbers from 0 to 455? Or maybe -455 to 455? :huh

Even avoiding the modulus operation wouldn't be terribly better. As Mr. Knuth has written, picking a bunch of arithmetic operations out of your head does not make a good PRNG. I think there's something good in that same book which could be easily coded in DROD scripting, though. Perhaps I'll look it up when I have some time.
10-27-2007 at 02:25 PM
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TFMurphy
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Indeed. The same criticisms I gave regarding the PRNG listed here also hold for this one. It is a terrible one.

If you actually try it? You get a set of 42 numbers... and then the 43rd number is 363. At which point, it goes: 363, -89, -391, 363, -89, -391, continuing on into the distance.

Removing the modulo is a little better: you get a set of 1688 numbers that don't repeat, and then you get a repeating period of 3728 numbers. Yes, that's probably more than enough for a DROD Hold's uses (if it really *really* needs numbers with no real visible correlation), but it's *STILL* not a servicable PRNG. (I won't use the word "good", because making a good PRNG is even more difficult than just a servicable one)

So please, don't try and make these numbers up by yourself.
[Last edited by TFMurphy at 10-27-2007 04:48 PM]
10-27-2007 at 04:47 PM
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Someone Else
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Since I want to maintain an open policy, I will put this in. But be warned, I will remove it if a better PRNG is put forth.
10-28-2007 at 03:37 AM
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Sillyman
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How about a linear congruential generator?

Label Loop
Set var Rand * 1664525
Set var Rand + 1013904223
Set var Rand % 4294967296
Wait 0
Go to Loop

32 bit pseudo-random number regenerated every turn, using suggested variables in a LCG. This should be good. Remember, most of the randomness comes from when it is accessed. Testing... Drod crashes when I try to insert the command "Set var Rand + 1013904223"... :angry

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11-03-2007 at 11:10 PM
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TFMurphy
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Still not good without modifications, though certainly better than creating your own. Remlin already posted this generator here, and it's been cleaned up a little since then. (For instance, a standard "MOD <Power of 2>" LCG has *extremely* low randomness in the less significant bits)

I believe schep was working on converting a better one though, last I saw.
11-04-2007 at 01:29 AM
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schep
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Sillyman wrote:
Testing... Drod crashes when I try to insert the command "Set var Rand + 1013904223"... :angry
When you insert the command? If you mean that DROD crashes when playtesting with the Ctrl+F7 Variable Monitor on, there's a bug with displaying 10-digit numbers which should be fixed for the next build (build 55, likely to be named 3.1.1). If it's something else, could you provide more details over on the Bugs board about how to make it crash?
11-07-2007 at 04:37 PM
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Sillyman
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Nope, it crashes when I add the command to the script. Could be much the same bug, though. Just act as though you were adding the script to an NPC, and that's how I did it. Happened twice! And in most games, they use a weak RNG, but make a few decisions about the random numbers based on human behavior. This is exactly what my script should do, base the numbers on number of turns spent in all rooms with the generator script, when the number is retrieved.

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[Last edited by Sillyman at 11-09-2007 07:16 PM]
11-09-2007 at 07:12 PM
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TFMurphy
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No, in most games they use a stronger RNG than what was posted unless they like falling into the trap of ending up with either a very predictable or easily controlled RNG or end up with some things impossible to achieve.

The idea is to have an RNG that has already done most of that work so that all you have to do is do whatever else you need to get the random range you want.

As brought up in the other thread, what happens if you just want either a 1 or a 2 from that? Someone using your code will likely just try:

Set var Result = Rand
Set var Result % 2
Set var Result + 1


Seems fair enough? Except that when they actually come to try it, they find that it results in: 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2. EDIT: Actually, it'd be a bit worse than that, since DROD uses signed integers, so without rectifying that, Rand can be positive or negative. So Result in this case would be a number from 0 to 2, and returns the first 10 numbers: 2, 1, 0, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 0, 1. So not only is it still not very random at all, but the range needs to be corrected.

Now, there's ways to deal with that, but really, this is something that needs to be part of the script, not left for the architect to deal with.

(And trust me on this, I've seen the whole range of bad uses of RNGs in games, especially in popular mainstream commercial games. It's not something you really want to emulate.)
[Last edited by TFMurphy at 11-09-2007 09:36 PM]
11-09-2007 at 08:32 PM
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Sillyman
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Oy. Then why were those values recommended? Arg. And I guess I spent too much time among the TAS community, 'cause it's only old games that have manipulatable RNGs... And are you sure you want to flip a coin every turn? ;)

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11-10-2007 at 03:07 AM
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TFMurphy
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They're 'recommended' because there are far worse values out there, and used properly, you can get a reasonable effect out of it for not much work. What tends to be done with these particular types of LCGs (the ones where you use a modulo of a power of 2, which is what the one you posted does) is to throw away the lower bits whenever retrieving a value (but keep them to help generate the next seed): the more significant bits are far better at generating psuedo-randomness. If you're curious about it, here's a good page that discusses the basics behind good and bad random number generators.

The biggest problem, really, is that it's all too easy to use these LCGs *badly*, and expecting more out of them then you'll get. And that's really something you want to avoid.

(Oh, and there are some quite recent games that have manipulatable or bad RNGs. The PSX Final Fantasy games had absolutely *TERRIBLE* ones, and while Golden Sun (GBA RPG) had a reasonably good use of an LCG, it left the seed too easy to manipulate, allowing players (after lots of work) to get rare items simply by following formulas.

Whatever procedure we script for DROD will be somewhat manipulatable no matter what's done, because that's just how DROD is (though we can mask that by quite a bit with work). But we can do our best to not have it be a bad one, at least.)
[Last edited by TFMurphy at 11-10-2007 05:51 AM]
11-10-2007 at 05:44 AM
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I've modified Someone Else's script to do self:

Click here to view the secret text

Edit: Wow! TWO fresh shiny new mod points! Thank you!
Another Edit: Permission for anyone to use these in any hold,
if they wish they can include thanks but otherwise just... DON'T THANK ME... I don't need any credit for pinching someone else's script. So there.

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[Last edited by Neathro at 02-04-2008 10:32 AM]
11-15-2007 at 01:41 PM
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Dex Stewart
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Could you by any chance create some scripting for maintaining a stack of elements, each of which can have one of three values?

EDIT: And also: I need to be able to acces this script from different rooms. So don't make it impossible to do so.
[Last edited by Dex Stewart at 11-17-2007 07:17 PM]
11-17-2007 at 06:48 PM
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Someone Else
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Okay, a stack of elements? I think so, but I'll need a little bit more description. Which elements do you want them to be, or do you want to make up new elements? Also, do you want them to switch between elements, or have properties of more than one? (Such as a hot plate that is also a pressure plate, or something like that)
11-19-2007 at 04:46 PM
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Dex Stewart
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Every element of the stack can only have one value (I don't care if it's a number or a letter or whatever, as long as I can read and write it) of three, and only need to read and write the top element (I also need to be able to add and remove elements to/from the top).
11-19-2007 at 05:17 PM
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schep
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Possible confusion: 'element' is a programming word for 'thing in a container'. I think Dex Stewart's request has nothing to do with DROD room elements like tiles and monsters.
11-20-2007 at 01:25 AM
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skell
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Author: Skell
Purpose: Quite fine Random Number Generator
With Explanation:
Click here to view the secret text

And Without:
Click here to view the secret text

I didn't see any RNG algorithm using Squared numbers, so I figured out something had to be done with it.

Too bad this topic is like dead, 'cause I'm not going to let it wither this easily :shifty.

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[Last edited by skell at 01-23-2008 06:06 PM]
01-23-2008 at 05:59 PM
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jbluestein
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skell wrote:
Too bad this topic is like dead, 'cause I'm not going to let it wither this easily :shifty.

I don't think it's dead...but it would be nice to see more scripts here. And more variety...

If people have useful scripts to post, this is the place...

Josh

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01-23-2008 at 08:06 PM
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skell
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Okay then, to keep it more alive here, I'll share 6 scripts for custom enemies with you, right from my probably-never-to-be-finished hold (You might not know, but long time ago I worked on really massive hold, but it was to massive for me - I'll rather work on something much simplier :P):

Author: Skell
Purpose: Horizontal Bouncer - enemy bouncing horizontally
Click here to view the secret text


Author: Skell
Purpose: Vertical Bouncer - enemy bouncing vertically
Click here to view the secret text


Author: Skell
Purpose: I/III Diagonal Bouncer - enemy bouncing diagonally Northeast and Southwest
Click here to view the secret text


Author: Skell
Purpose: II/IV Diagonal Bouncer - enemy bouncing diagonally Southeast and Northwest
Click here to view the secret text


Author: Skell
Purpose: Rolling Ball Of Death Clockwise - Enemy going forward and upon encountering wall turning 45 degrees Clockwise
Click here to view the secret text


Author: Skell
Purpose: Rolling Ball Of Death Counter Clockwise - Enemy going forward and upon encountering wall turning 45 degrees Counter Clockwise
Click here to view the secret text


At the beginning of every script you have:
  If ... 
        Wait for clean room 
     Go to Finished
  Else 
     Go to SOME LABEL
  If End

SOME LABEL is for quick setting starting direction. Unfortunately DROD doesn't support checking what direction Self is facing.
If you don't want the enemies to disappear when the room is completed, delete the whole thing and only leave "Go to SOME LABEL".
All these enemies share the common characteristic:
-Their movement is Direct-only (Like wubbas or golems)
-Their death is required to finish room
-They kill you when they walk onto you
-They are killable

"I, Skell, as copyright holder of these scripts give the people on the Caravelnet forum permission to edit and use them in their DROD hold and any derivative works thereof, provided the scripts won't be credited to anyone else."
So you don't have to credit me, really, it makes less than no difference to me if you use them or not. Just please, don't say you wrote them if happenen otherwise, ok? ^^

That would be it.

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[Last edited by skell at 01-23-2008 09:35 PM : Adding Copyright, yay!]
01-23-2008 at 09:00 PM
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jbluestein
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skell wrote:
Okay then, to keep it more alive here, I'll share 6 scripts for
[...]

Please don't forget to put in a 'permission to use' statement, as noted in the top post of this thread.

Thanks!
Josh

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01-23-2008 at 09:29 PM
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Someone Else
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Actually Skell, it wasn't quite dead anyways. You can look at when I last edited the top post, with the date and time like this:
[Last edited by Someone Else at 01-17-2008 18:09]
[Last edited by Someone Else at 01-24-2008 02:05 AM]
01-24-2008 at 02:04 AM
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jbluestein wrote:
For the record, I'd like to see this eventually become a sticky thread at the top of the Architecture thread
Granted, but...
Oh, sorry, not the corrupt a wish thread. But you did get your wish.

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01-24-2008 at 03:40 AM
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skell
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Someone Else wrote:
Actually Skell, it wasn't quite dead anyways. You can look at when I last edited the top post, with the date and time like this:
[Last edited by Someone Else at 01-17-2008 18:09]

Well, I just looked at the date of last post, which was like two months ago. That's why I didn't actually think about looking at the first post update date ^^;.

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01-24-2008 at 11:18 AM
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TFMurphy
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I'm truly sorry to keep belabouring this point. I'm not trying to be nasty, and I don't want to put people off from submitting scripts. But please, please steer clear from trying to make a random number generator script unless you *REALLY* know what you're doing. I can't stress this enough.

skell, the example script you posted with its default numbers is very deeply flawed. Here's the basic analysis:

The first 15 numbers it spits out are: 8, 29, 24, 28, 0, 4, 23, 31, 20, 28, 28, 8, 12, 16, 8, 0.

After that, it goes into a *loop*. It will repeat the same 12 numbers forever: 11, 27, 16, 8, 20, 28, 16, 4, 20, 16, 8, 28.

Putting those together, that's two 0s, two 4s, five 8s, an 11, a 12, four 16s, three 20s, a 23, a 24, a 27, five 28s, a 29 and a 31 all in the first 27 turns. That's a terrible distribution, and look at all the numbers in the 0-35 range that *aren't* ever used?

Now, sure, you could change the starting numbers. But picking numbers out of your head doesn't make for good randomness. In fact, I've no idea if there *are* any constants that can be used with the script to make it useful enough: keep in mind that a servicable RNG should have a decent period (the amount of numbers you get out before the pattern repeats), an excellent distribution over the random range, and at least *some* amount of chaoticness to its order ("1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4" may be well distributed, but it's very clearly not random).

So, okay, maybe what it does suits your purposes fine. But you're submitting it to this thread for other people to use. One of the major uses of random number generators is to give things a probability of things happening. And it's no good someone taking the script, trying to code something that has a 10% chance of happening, but only to find that it happens 37% instead or - worse - that it *never* happens because the number they're using is never ever picked. If you can't trust the RNG to at least be sensibly distributed over the range you need, then its use to architects becomes very *very* limited.

To quote schep quoting Donald Knuth: "picking a bunch of arithmetic operations out of your head does not make a good PRNG".

The standard ANSI-C generator has been converted by Remlin in this thread. People seeking a somewhat fair PRNG would do well to use that one. (EDIT: I'm mixing up my generators: instead of ANSI-C, Remlin posted the Knuth & Lewis constants which is a better generator, I think. It still suffers from the standard weaknesses a 2^n LCG has, but it's certainly good enough for our uses.)

Also schep's said something in the Script database thread about an algorithm in Knuth's book that could be easily converted too - if it's not a 2^n LCG, then it'd quite possibly be a slightly better alternative.

===

I'm all for more scripts to be submitted, but please, no more RNG scripts unless it's a conversion of one that has already had its properties well-tested. (And try to make it easy for an architect to use so that they can avoid all the traps that lead even experienced computer programmers to create bad uses of randomness)
[Last edited by TFMurphy at 01-29-2008 05:57 AM]
01-26-2008 at 04:06 AM
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