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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Feature Requests : Blue Snake (It's called the divider (Intrigued yet?))
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aztcg7
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icon Blue Snake (0)  
So, there's this snake, right? It's blue, and it only moves diagonally. The serpent movement rules are exactly the same, except rotated 45 degrees clockwise. So if you're on the same diagonal as the serpent, it continues in the same direction. If you aren't, times when serpents are moving horizontally, it's going in the direction based on a line of y=-x through it's head.

The only way to kill the snake is to attack it somewhere in the center. The head and tail are invulnerable. This causes the blue snake to split in twain. (I know it's very similar to the earthworm that people have suggested, but read on.) At the point where it got sliced with the sword, bomb, whatever, 2 snakes are created, except both heads are now facing towards you. Should either of these not have a body section, they immediately die. They move at a time similar to snakes, with the section that included the head having precedence.

This opens at least some puzzle potential, for instance, killing serpents by creating a place for them to have no movement. They don't shrink when trapped, so to get them to die they must be attacked and the shorter blue snakes can attack you. This can create a horde timer, one blue snake stretched out along a giant horde with it's tail and head well lodged so snake will be left when you slice it.

The problem I see is how it will be drawn. There was a fireserpent/salamander suggestion that included possible diagonal pictures, but still needs to be thought out, as it doesn't conceptually touch those tiles.

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07-25-2007 at 10:08 AM
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calamarain
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icon Re: Blue Snake (0)  
Mmmmm, yes the graphics would be a problem. I think the snake is a good idea as it is, in the orthogonal directions rather than the diagonal. A dividing snake has been proposed before.

The only thing is - blue's not a good colour for it, as rattlers already have that. Perhaps dark yellow?

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07-25-2007 at 01:55 PM
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vittro
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File: test.png (2.3 KB)
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icon Re: Blue Snake (0)  
Graphics won't be a problem. Check the attachment.
Fixed.

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[Last edited by vittro at 07-25-2007 04:53 PM]
07-25-2007 at 02:18 PM
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Stefan
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icon Re: Blue Snake (+1)  
vittro wrote:
Graphics won't be a problem. Check the attachment.
Eh? What am I supposed to be looking at here?

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07-25-2007 at 02:54 PM
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Stephen4Louise
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icon Re: Blue Snake (+1)  
Stefan wrote:
vittro wrote:
Graphics won't be a problem. Check the attachment.
Eh? What am I supposed to be looking at here?

Put your nose right up to the screen, then cross your eyes. Slowly pull back to reveal the picture of a blue snake :)

Or maybe he just posted the wrong attachment.

Steve.
07-25-2007 at 03:27 PM
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vittro
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icon Re: Blue Snake (0)  
lol, wrong attachment!

Fixed now. Should, "should", be ok.

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07-25-2007 at 04:53 PM
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mrimer
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icon Re: Blue Snake (0)  
vittro wrote:
Graphics won't be a problem. Check the attachment.
Hmm...sorry...I'm not sure from these sprites how to understand that graphics won't be a problem. Sure, we can draw a diagonal serpent, but it'll just take a fair amount of programming work to allow it to correctly combine with adjacent monsters, etc.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 07-25-2007 05:05 PM]
07-25-2007 at 05:04 PM
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TFMurphy
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icon Re: Blue Snake (+1)  
I don't think you quite understand the problem being discussed, vittro - the two tiles you've marked on either side of the snake have to be dealt with specially, because they're supposedly empty squares that just have some graphics in them to help make sense of the snake. How do you deal with it when there's a monster in there too? Or a Rattlesnake? These are things that need to be considered from the coding perspective.

Anyways, considering the idea itself.

First, here's the concerns. On a consistency standpoint, I disagree that when cutting the snake, the two heads should be facing you - you *already* have a head and a tail presumably far away from the cutting point. What happens to those? The most consistent result would be that the piece that has the head gets a new tail, and the piece that has the tail gets a new head. If the snake is cut multiple times in the same turn, then it's easiest to just say that pieces that were nearer along the snake towards the head become heads, and pieces that were nearer along the snake towards the tail become tails.

Secondly: a diagonal-moving snake would *only* be able to touch one parity-type of tiles (think bishops on a chessboard). On top of that, how should such a snake block movement? You'd likely need a little bit extra code to prevent anything from crossing over such a snake, since so many things can move diagonal.

It's an idea that's likely worth playing with from a puzzle-potential standpoint, but there are some quite thorny technical issues to consider during this.
07-25-2007 at 05:14 PM
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vittro
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icon Re: Blue Snake (0)  
It's simple. Just create a graphic, without any effect like my picture on another layer, all the things will overlap it.

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07-25-2007 at 05:18 PM
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TFMurphy
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icon Re: Blue Snake (+2)  
Truly spoken like someone who'll never have to code it ^_^;;;

Please consider multiples of these snakes, how they twist and turn, having to decide which of the 14 possible arrangements of those fake diagonals you have to use for a single tile, writing the code to decide all this, integrating it with the existing graphics system, getting it to look good with the existing elements, and so on.

It's certainly doable. But I wouldn't call it *simple*.

[Last edited by TFMurphy at 07-25-2007 05:29 PM]
07-25-2007 at 05:20 PM
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vittro
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icon Re: Blue Snake (-1)  
I'm not saying it's simple to code. I'm a Visual Basic coder and I know what's simple and what's not. I'm saying the idea it's simple, a graphics without effects to make the snake without any graphical problem.

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07-25-2007 at 07:00 PM
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zex20913
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icon Re: Blue Snake (+1)  
I do want to see a monster with bishop movement, but I don't think I want a snake with bishop movement.

And diagonal only is a strong weakness. So for strength, I'd give it the attribute of speed. And possibly, the desire to attack the square directly behind Beethro, though that might be too much.

As for the graphical issue, I'd say make it like a sausage link snake. That way, there's no overlap into adjacent squares, and it's still pretty easy to determine that the snake still exists.

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07-25-2007 at 07:39 PM
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TFMurphy
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icon Re: Blue Snake (+2)  
You're confusing two issues, vittro. The problem was never "how should this type of snake look?" It's "how do we put this snake together given these boxes of diagonal snake parts and given how the current system already works, and still make it look good and not introduce any more bugs?"

As Mike said, a diagonal serpent can be drawn fairly easily. It's getting it to work with everything *and* implementing what would be completely new code to get it to look right.

As a different example, take a look at Aumtlich beams. They're quite thick horizontally, and look great. Now look at them diagonally. They're a lot thinner. They're thin enough, in fact, that if you don't look closely, you won't notice that they don't overlap onto tiles that they don't cross. (Well, actually, it's fairly visible that they don't if you look at the beams when they're over something that highly contrasts with them, like pits.)

The point is: if you look at this and many other types of tiles that look to be diagonally connected (including every sworded-character in the game), you'll see that they never overlap onto a tile that they don't belong. DROD is a tile-based game, and as such, anything that's going to occupy more than the tile it's supposed to is going to require a bit more involved implementation.

I highly recommend reading AlefBet's first post in the Fire-Serpent/Salamander thread, where he touches on this exact same issue. It's not an impossible task, and it's not insurmountable, as Mike has hinted at and AlefBet states in his post. But it *would* require more coding that isn't already in DROD, and it is not simple. And we're not even talking about how to implement the snake itself - this is just to get its graphics looking decent.

===

And yeah, zex, I agree - diagonal-only movement *is* a strong weakness due to the parity issue - it's child's play to stand on a square the snake can't reach and just cut it down to size. Without changes, you'd need to have the designer limit its use to rooms where it's difficult to use such squares against it, or where its unique diagonal movement works well where other snakes wouldn't. With changes... well, you could give it the Seep-like ability to attack squares it's next to if there's something it wants on there, but that'll complicate the snake graphics issue even more. Or maybe its weakness is more localized rather than any middle segment of its body. It bears thinking about.

[Last edited by TFMurphy at 07-25-2007 07:46 PM]
07-25-2007 at 07:45 PM
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aztcg7
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icon Re: Blue Snake (+1)  
And yeah, zex, I agree - diagonal-only movement *is* a strong weakness due to the parity issue - it's child's play to stand on a square the snake can't reach and just cut it down to size. Without changes, you'd need to have the designer limit its use to rooms where it's difficult to use such squares against it, or where its unique diagonal movement works well where other snakes wouldn't. With changes... well, you could give it the Seep-like ability to attack squares it's next to if there's something it wants on there, but that'll complicate the snake graphics issue even more. Or maybe its weakness is more localized rather than any middle segment of its body. It bears thinking about.

I'll admit I hadn't thought the whole thing through very well, but I still feel the idea is workable. Given the parity issue, I think it would have to have seep movement if you're right next to it, but that would end up adding 16 new tiles required, and could be kind of a pain. I also think the only thing that would end up interesting the snake enough to change spaces is Beethro (maybe a human), otherwise it would end up being a mostly diagonal monster, except where it doesn't want to, and confuses the rules.

I thought about the localized weaknesses, but I'm not really sure how that would work. Would you have a snake with a bunch of special tiles throughout his body, and when you hit one, it would divide into 2 snakes, each with localized weaknesses in the same place that the other ones did? now, if one of the new snakes doesn't have a localized weakness, it just dies? That seems similar to the snake heart idea at http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=10310&page=0#107169 except that it's more general.

First, here's the concerns. On a consistency standpoint, I disagree that when cutting the snake, the two heads should be facing you - you *already* have a head and a tail presumably far away from the cutting point. What happens to those? The most consistent result would be that the piece that has the head gets a new tail, and the piece that has the tail gets a new head. If the snake is cut multiple times in the same turn, then it's easiest to just say that pieces that were nearer along the snake towards the head become heads, and pieces that were nearer along the snake towards the tail become tails.

I feel that moving the heads towards the center where the snake was cut adds more puzzle potential, and helps to remove possibilities that make the room unsolvable, as it prevents (I really don't like rooms that try to put you in a place where you make the room unsolvable, like trapping a rattler into a hole when it's tail is inaccessible). I never really thought of the possibility of multiple cuts in 1 turn. I can see how it would be easier to just have heads spawn closer to the heads. I think, if the divider was cut multiple times in the same turn, the ends would end up with heads moving towards the center, as I said, except the areas between the first and last cuts on the snake would just die all at once. That makes sense to me, sort of like in the head is another tail, and in the tail is another head, but if you cut a whole section of center away, the spare heads/tails can't get there, and it dies. It also makes sense to me with that logic that if you had a spare head, you wouldn't send it leaving your tail exposed, you would send the head to fight off the attacker.

On top of that, how should such a snake block movement?

It's apparent that it would need to, otherwise it wouldn't make very much sense as a horde blocker. Coding wise, you could do a movement check when any monster is adjacent to a divider, and if it would step over it, simply prevent that move.

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07-26-2007 at 08:09 AM
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Mattcrampy
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icon Re: Blue Snake (0)  
Some concerns:

Snakes that split tend to get unwieldy quickly. Most snakes tend to be quite long - a snake 16 squares can easily split into five three-unit snakes.

I think parity is important for that reason, although I also misread it and thought that you had to be careful where the snake was cut so that you didn't end up with a two-square snake, which I thought was a really interesting use of the long monster archetype, kind of a combination of snakes and tar.

I think that making a diagonal snake be able to block diagonal movement would be unintuitive, seeing as normally movement isn't blocked if there's nothing in the start or destination square to stop it.

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[Last edited by Mattcrampy at 07-26-2007 06:04 PM]
07-26-2007 at 06:02 PM
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aztcg7
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icon Re: Blue Snake (+1)  
Mattcrampy wrote:
Some concerns:

Snakes that split tend to get unwieldy quickly. Most snakes tend to be quite long - a snake 16 squares can easily split into five three-unit snakes.

I think parity is important for that reason, although I also misread it and thought that you had to be careful where the snake was cut so that you didn't end up with a two-square snake, which I thought was a really interesting use of the long monster archetype, kind of a combination of snakes and tar.

I think that making a diagonal snake be able to block diagonal movement would be unintuitive, seeing as normally movement isn't blocked if there's nothing in the start or destination square to stop it.

As it only divides once every time you cut it, it would be possible to have plenty of snakes, but you could also continuously cut it near it's head or tail, and prevent there from being more than one snake ever (based on the puzzle, of course).

I'm not sure how a snake 16 units long would turn into snakes totaling 15 units long. That would indicate only 1 cut, and therefore, only 2 snakes. It's possible I didn't make my ideas clear on what happens exactly when a divider gets cut. lets say you have a snake with 8 body sections:

<xxxxxxxxH

When you cut it in the middle, the 2 body sections right next to the cut become heads, which are invulnerable. This means that 3 body squares are actually used up each time you cut in only one place (more would be gone if you have multiple cuts). That leaves 2 snakes, looking like this:

<xxH Hxxx>

Now, I've been thinking about it, and the diagonals aren't actually that helpful, other than being different than other serpents. Interestingly enough, if you had a divider 4 long, hitting it anywhere would kill it, as each section would divide into a section less than 3, as heads and tails are both invulnerable. If snakes of 2 didn't die immediately, making them effectively a more difficult version, I can't see a way where any snake that was even numbered would be completely killable. The obvious way would be to hit one on the end of it's body, shrinking it by 2. I tried it with a snake 6 long, and it isn't possible to completely kill. Having odd numbered dividers seems limiting.

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07-27-2007 at 07:33 AM
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Mattcrampy
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icon Re: Blue Snake (+1)  
You missed my point about how snakes are often quite long. The numbers don't matter: you're still going to end up with a lot of snakes, and lots of snakes in one area tends to result in chaos. I feel confident saying that dividing snakes (of any kind) just don't make good puzzles, even though the idea is appealing.

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07-28-2007 at 01:05 PM
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mrimer
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Mattcrampy wrote:
You missed my point about how snakes are often quite long. The numbers don't matter: you're still going to end up with a lot of snakes, and lots of snakes in one area tends to result in chaos. I feel confident saying that dividing snakes (of any kind) just don't make good puzzles, even though the idea is appealing.
Yes, this sounds more appropriate to an arcade/action style game. It seems to provide only a specialized type of puzzle here (i.e. make enough serpents and guide them to N locations). This is already done enough, albeit in an analogous style, with existing monster generators.

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07-28-2007 at 07:06 PM
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starwed
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icon Re: Blue Snake (+1)  
A dividing snake might be interesting if the tail part of it, rather than becoming a monster, became a wall-like obstacle. (Much like rock golems become obstacles.)
08-03-2007 at 07:33 AM
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Kwakstur
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starwed wrote:
A dividing snake might be interesting if the tail part of it, rather than becoming a monster, became a wall-like obstacle. (Much like rock golems become obstacles.)
Aye, we already have a 2x2 rock golem, why do we need an even longer one?

Ow, it hurts just thinking about it!



Ow!!!

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08-03-2007 at 07:36 PM
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